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The Crossroads...

galeforce said:
The champions league, Porto and Inter weren't top 10 in those metrics let alone top 6.
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That is far from true (for Inter Milan anyway). In the season that Inter won the Champions league they had the 9th biggest income in World football and the second biggest in Italy (less than 7 million Euros behind Juventus).

However despite having the 9th highest income they spent money like a team with far greater resources.... In the three years up to and including their CL winning season their unsustainable spending meant that they made losses 208 million, 148 million and 154 million (all in euros). So a total of over 500 million euros of losses in the three years up to and including that season. Inter's wage bill the season they won the CL was a whopping 205 million euros, which was over 1OO% of their income.... By quite a long way the biggest in Italy and to put in even more context 10% larger than Real Madrid's wage bill.

Do not be fooled into thinking that Mourinho won the CL on a budget with Inter. He did so with them having the second highest wage bill in World football behind Barcelona.
 
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billyiddo said:
Trouble is squads on paper don't allow for any context whatsoever.


The split, as far as i can see, is between those that think the squad not being improved/refreshed for so long has finally caught up with us and this season is one too many for the manager to keep churning out results Vs those who think the manager should continue to perform at the same level laid down when the squad was at it's peak despit the squad not being improved over a 3 to 4 year period with regards to signings and having actually lost 2 important first XI players (and several others through becoming crocked and or old)

The first group want to see Poch get his long overdue squad refresh whilst the 2nd want to micro analyse every decision he makes with a squad that is clearly on the wane collectively.
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No pretty much everyone agrees on how we got here.

I'd be happy enough for some 1980s style three year midtable rebuild but Levy isn't gonna put up with that.
If we remain 11th on the same form for the last 9 months Poch will be sacked.

Any rebuild will be hard. Nothing will change in the next transfer window.
The summer window will be the usual struggle to get players out (Rose, Aurier, Wanyama, Dier, Davies, Moura out) We will struggle to attract the quality of players we were able to after the Champions League final.
 
Modric THFC said:
No pretty much everyone agrees on how we got here.

I'd be happy enough for some 1980s style three year midtable rebuild but Levy isn't gonna put up with that.
If we remain 11th on the same form for the last 9 months Poch will be sacked.

Any rebuild will be hard. Nothing will change in the next transfer window.
The summer window will be the usual struggle to get players out (Rose, Aurier, Wanyama, Dier, Davies, Moura out) We will struggle to attract the quality of players we were able to after the Champions League final.
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Time will tell but i will wager that Poch has Levys backing with regards to rebuilding the squad and January/the summer will see further work taking place on the front
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
People invest a lot of themselves and it becomes personal, emotive.

Its also a business. Both on and off the field.

These two things sometimes gel together beautifully, but often times clash.

Steff is clearly very invested, very romantic about the whole thing. Its admirable, but its not always objective.

Some people are very objective, perhaps coldly so, and I can completely understand that not being to the more emotive types liking.

Me? Theres what I want, and what I get, and an acceptance they are not always the same.

And thats where this conversation gets messy.

Steff talks about wanting a manager with integrity, someone to build a legacy, bring glory the more emotive/romantic way - and I can buy every word of it. I mean, who wouldnt?

Problem is, the flip side is - Im not seeing what he is seeing.

So as romantic as I might like to be, my objectivity doesnt support it at this time.

Ive said so many times this season, Ill take bad results - providing I can see the plan/work/project in place and being enacted. I just dont see it at this point. To the point where I very much am losing faith in Pochettino and his ability to pull it together.

Patience for patience sake is not a virtue. Poch needs to be earning it as we speak, not sitting on past successes hoping things will turn. We need to see the fruits of his labour on the training field. And I reiterate - thats not a results thing.

The job of a manager, ultimately, is to get the best out of the resources he has. Theres much besides, of course, but thats really what it boils down to.

When we were mid table and brick but had Jol getting the most out of that team - was anyone complaining? Even when we lost matches? Had an iffy run? Not really. We could see the work coming through and the team performing near its peak.

When AVB took a better group of players and turned them into manequins - was anyone complaining? Damn right! He should have been doing so much more with the players at hand.

Results wise these guys had similar seasons, but the view of them was entirely different. The reason being, one was getting near as much as possible out of the squad, and one wasnt.

When Jol went, I thought it was right, I thought he had reached his limit - where we had not. No animosity, no hard feelings, just an acceptance that it was time. When Redknapp went I thought exactly the same.

Poch? Its starting to feel that way.

I REALLY want to see him getting a grip on things, showing some direction, getting us playing. I really do. But as it is, we are miles from our best under him - let alone improving on that. There are deeper issues at play than just "injuries" "want away players" etc.

Romantically, I want nothing more than for Poch to wake up and really show his stuff. Objectively, this feels very much like an end of an era IMHO.
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Spot on post and reflects my feelings also. Poch deserves till Christmas to show he is capable of turning this round imo. If there are no positive signs by then, I feel we need a new voice in the changing room to freshen things up and the new man given the January budget to begin his approach with his chosen players.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Any data doesn’t factor in
Under investment
Changes of stadium
World Cup and other tournament fatigue
Other teams improving significantly
Lack of experience

that’s just a few things I’m thinking of....
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Can't allow our players to go on international duty and blame fatigue.

We have it in our power to stop them going and choose not to.
 
Levy is the big man, Levy is the key to everything.

Poch is good. He used to be excellent, but right now he is lost, making really poor decisions.

But Levy is the key to all this. What a performer, what an incredible turnaround in his 20 year reign. LEGEND.
 
scaramanga said:
Can't allow our players to go on international duty and blame fatigue.

We have it in our power to stop them going and choose not to.
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POCH: Harry, Dele, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know that World Cup this summer? And the upcoming Euros? You're not going.

HARRY/DELE: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) He's a clam!

POCH: Jan, Toby, Christian, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know that World Cup this summer? And the upcoming Euros? You're not going?

JAN/TOBY/CHRISTIAN: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) He's a clam!

POCH: Sonny, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know those "Asian games thingies" that could save your career, oh and those World Cups and those meaningless games against commie neighbours? You're not going.

SONNY: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) I really like the boss but I think he is maybe being a tad unfair.

I can see the dressing room after a round of those calls.
 
Bullet said:
Levy is the big man, Levy is the key to everything.

Poch is good. He used to be excellent, but right now he is lost, making really poor decisions.

But Levy is the key to all this. What a performer, what an incredible turnaround in his 20 year reign. LEGEND.
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Levy has done brilliantly, but there is an argument which says he failed to jump all over the biggest opportunity to build and go we've ever had. Back in the summer many of us were saying n to only to get Lo Celso in but to really show intent and get Fernandes in too REGARDLESS of Eriksen. What we don't know is exactly why that did not happen.
 
thfcsteff said:
Levy has done brilliantly, but there is an argument which says he failed to jump all over the biggest opportunity to build and go we've ever had. Back in the summer many of us were saying n to only to get Lo Celso in but to really show intent and get Fernandes in too REGARDLESS of Eriksen. What we don't know is exactly why that did not happen.
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I agree Levy has made lots of mistakes. But look at where we are versus where we were. Incredible skills.
 
It's hard for me to see Jose as having no care for the clubs he's managed. It's not like he has left teams that have then gone on to severe financial difficulties with bloated squads full of old mates on huge contracts a la 'Arry (simplified view I know but let's not get in to it). If it's that "reckless" nature that would have us looking back at true glory then I'm all for recklessness.

I don't recall if I had posted about it at the time on here but my main thought on Poch coming was quite honestly "Seems like he'll be able to get a project moving in the right direction but he has not won anything". Some think it's a media hatchet job to focus on the latter point after 6 years of this continuing but it's just simple facts. However I was happy to have a younger more progressive manager without the emperor's new clothes feeling of AVB. I've been critical at times but am certainly not a member of the Poch out phalanx at this time, if at any stage it should have been done over the summer but that time has been and gone. Can we get in to form to get "the feeling" back? I farking hope so because now not only are the team not playing to the sum of their parts but it's also looking like being disbanded (Ajax trio and Kane looking somewhat peeved with the same brick time and time again....).

I hope I don't come across as doom and gloom but I felt strongly following the summer that the squad had not been strengthened (and Poch seemed to agree from certain quotes...) and the squad clearly had issues that needed solving considering the performances since January. Those saying he should have a chance to build another incarnation seem to forget that a team is a continuously evolving entity and this entity is certainly one that he has shaped himself, the difficulty in the debate will lie in how much support he has had from Levy throughout. We don't know the ins and outs of it and the near misses. My worry is if he stays, from a very simple perspective, players who are that next level we need know they'll come here for relatively paltry wages and not win anything with Poch at the helm. Wish I could say I saw it in a much more positive light..
 
thfcsteff said:
POCH: Harry, Dele, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know that World Cup this summer? And the upcoming Euros? You're not going.

HARRY/DELE: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) He's a clam!

POCH: Jan, Toby, Christian, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know that World Cup this summer? And the upcoming Euros? You're not going?

JAN/TOBY/CHRISTIAN: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) He's a clam!

POCH: Sonny, it's Poch. So here's the story. You know those "Asian games thingies" that could save your career, oh and those World Cups and those meaningless games against commie neighbours? You're not going.

SONNY: Oh OK boss, understood (phone hangs up) I really like the boss but I think he is maybe being a tad unfair.

I can see the dressing room after a round of those calls.
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Worked fine for Ferguson.
 
Bullet said:
Do you ever look at the charts SteveAWOL posts from SwissRamble?

Note - you say "budget" which presumably means "net transfer spend and wage budget" which is in fact, tiny.
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Take a look at my post on the previous page that shows the actual facts (backed up by published accounts) and not perception.
 
Bullet said:
Do you ever look at the charts SteveAWOL posts from SwissRamble?

Note - you say "budget" which presumably means "net transfer spend and wage budget" which is in fact, tiny.
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Sometimes. Not always, its pretty dry.

I wasnt the one to bring up money as the be all end all diviner of where we should finish.

I actually think the fact we have a top class squad is more pertinent.
 
scaramanga said:
Can't allow our players to go on international duty and blame fatigue.

We have it in our power to stop them going and choose not to.
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I agree that we should do more to limit the amount of minutes that our players get for England, especially in friendlies. However there was nothing that we could do about that at the beginning of last season where we had so many players going to the very end of the World Cup.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I agree that we should do more to limit the amount of minutes that our players get for England, especially in friendlies. However there was nothing that we could do about that at the beginning of last season where we had so many players going to the very end of the World Cup.
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We could simply explain how thoroughly pointless international football is.
 
Modric THFC said:
No pretty much everyone agrees on how we got here.

I'd be happy enough for some 1980s style three year midtable rebuild but Levy isn't gonna put up with that.
If we remain 11th on the same form for the last 9 months Poch will be sacked.

Any rebuild will be hard. Nothing will change in the next transfer window.
The summer window will be the usual struggle to get players out (Rose, Aurier, Wanyama, Dier, Davies, Moura out) We will struggle to attract the quality of players we were able to after the Champions League final.
Click to expand...

I'm H A P P Y,
I'm H A P P Y,
I know I am, I'm Sure I am
I'm H A P P Y
 
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