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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
From my point of view, either beside the point, or for Poch to manage.

The crux of matters seems to fall to a couple of view points
- Poch should be doing better with what he has
- There are a million excuses as to why Poch shouldnt be doing better than he is
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There isn't a million excuses, there are reasons why the team are failing, some is poch, some the players and some DL.
I've never said anything different.
Replacing poch won't imv solve the issue with Toby, Rose, or Eriksen. It won't cure Wanyama’s knees or turn Sissoko I to a half decent footballer. So a new coach will want to move them on.
DL isn't likely to splurge that money in one go with a new coach.

Changing a known quantity manager with a plan approved by a chairman who has already started putting the pieces in place is better than ditching it all to start again.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Problem is, the machine is perfectly serviceable. Even if it isnt the brand new all singing all dancing model.
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The machine is indeed pretty well perfectly serviceable (if we switch off a few of the bells and whistles). However I'm not sure we can expect it to produce better output than at the other companies who have invested in the brand new all singing, all dancing models?
 
Raziel said:
Except no data backs up your production manager's statement? and the machinery is not even producing what it used to.

Does anyone really believe the results over the last 10 months are even par for this squad? that it is really the best any manager could get out of this team? that conceding 7 goals at home for the first time in our history is because of squad quality issues? losing 3-0 to relegation scrappers is because we were missing Lo Celso or Dybala?

fudge me … this has got to the point where we are actually advocating massive squad re-jig because Poch can't even get expected (not overachieve) results out of the best Tottenham side I have seen in decades ...
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This isn't the best Tottenham side for decades. It's not even as good as Harry Redknapp's team IMO and is significantly worse than the team we had two or three seasons ago. Our fullbacks are a pale imitation of a peak Walker and Rose. We don't have a deep midfielder anywhere near as good as that peak Wanyama, we no longer have one of the best midfielders in the World in Dembele and we no longer have one of the best creative midfielders in the World (Eriksen) actually wanting to play for us and that's before you consider our two centre halves now being past their peak.

It was a miracle that Poch got that team to 4th place and the CL final last season with no new signings, so many injuries and no home to play at for most of the season.
 
scaramanga said:
We can use your measure of league finishing positions as our only criteria if we're agreed that we can afford to finish mid-table one season and only make decisions regarding Poch's future after whole seasons.

On the (fairly sound) assumption that finishing outside the top 4 this season is less than acceptable, then we need to look at recent form. Recent form is that of a team barely staying above the relegation zone.

I'm not saying Poch needs to go now, but he needs to show that he has some kind of idea as to how he will dig himself out of this hole and he needs to do it sharply.
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If somebody can show me a manager who has consistently finished above rivals with far greater finances over a number of seasons and further improved compared to those rivals year on year then I'll come round to the idea of binning Poch and bringing this new genius in.
 
Raziel said:
Feel like a dog chasing my tail at this point, but for me it's super simple

- Poch is not getting the results that are right or par for this team (again unless you believe we should ship 3 goals against relegation squads)
- If it is really "certain players" then fudging make them play for you or replace them with academy players (Poch did this when he bought in Mason & Bentaleb)
- IF it is a confidence, unsettled thing, then get them back to the basics, keep it fudging simple, no diamonds, no crazy possession out the back, just simple.
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Do you allow that it "might" be a slightly more complex situation, particularly when you pair your second option with the realities of news stadiums/expectations/Internet forums wanting a divorce because it has been a bit rough for a bit?

Let's give him a little time.
He deserves that IMO.
He has earned it.

And before anyone (not you per se) asks "why he has earned it" I have offered several detailed and possibly long-winded posts detailing why (IMO).
 
Finney Is Back said:
It was a miracle that Poch got that team to 4th place and the CL final last season with no new signings, so many injuries and no home to play at for most of the season.
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Nah im sure if you were to go back to the beginning of last season on the forum and look at what was predicated after the summer window closed it was widely thought that's what we'd get out of the season...
 
Finney Is Back said:
This isn't the best Tottenham side for decades. It's not even as good as Harry Redknapp's team IMO and is significantly worse than the team we had two or three seasons ago. Our fullbacks are a pale imitation of a peak Walker and Rose. We don't have a deep midfielder anywhere near as good as that peak Wanyama, we no longer have one of the best midfielders in the World in Dembele and we no longer have one of the best creative midfielders in the World (Eriksen) actually wanting to play for us and that's before you consider our two centre halves now being past their peak.

It was a miracle that Poch got that team to 4th place and the CL final last season with no new signings, so many injuries and no home to play at for most of the season.
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ok mate, this is obviously satire now ..

Harry Redknapp's team (I've picked the lineup from the Inter game where Bale scored his hattrick) vs. Poch's current team

Keeper - Gomes vs. Hugo
Defense - Hutton, Gallas, Bassong, BAE vs. Aurier, Toby, Jan, Rose
Midfield - Huddlestone, Lennon, Bale Jenas, Modric vs. N'dombele, Lucas/Son, Dele, Eriksen
Striker - Crouch vs. Kane

Modric & Bale are the only players who would get a sniff of our current squad, in fact most of our 2nd string would play in front of that team ...

Did we have a better FB and DM setup, possibly yes, but we have a better version of Son, a fit Lamela and Lucas and N'dombele. Now if we are trying to play the same way we did 3 years ago without understanding the change in personnel that in itself is an issue.

But lets just leave as we don't agree ..
 
Finney Is Back said:
If somebody can show me a manager who has consistently finished above rivals with far greater finances over a number of seasons and further improved compared to those rivals year on year then I'll come round to the idea of binning Poch and bringing this new genius in.
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Further to this.... I just took a look at the last 5 years for the Italian, German, French, Spanish and Portuguese leagues. I cannot see a single team who sit outside of the biggest five spenders in that country consistently finishing in the top 4. Spurs are the only team to have done this and Pochettino the only manager.

Maybe there's a Christian Gross lurking in the Swiss league or something?!?
 
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Raziel said:
ok mate, this is obviously satire now ..

Harry Redknapp's team (I've picked the lineup from the Inter game where Bale scored his hattrick) vs. Poch's current team

Keeper - Gomes vs. Hugo
Defense - Hutton, Gallas, Bassong, BAE vs. Aurier, Toby, Jan, Rose
Midfield - Huddlestone, Lennon, Bale Jenas, Modric vs. N'dombele, Lucas/Son, Dele, Eriksen
Striker - Crouch vs. Kane

Modric & Bale are the only players who would get a sniff of our current squad, in fact most of our 2nd string would play in front of that team ...

Did we have a better FB and DM setup, possibly yes, but we have a better version of Son, a fit Lamela and Lucas and N'dombele. Now if we are trying to play the same way we did 3 years ago without understanding the change in personnel that in itself is an issue.

But lets just leave as we don't agree ..
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The only problem is that was not anything like Redknapp's best Spurs team....

This was the team that played against Emirates Marketing Project in 2012:
Friedel, Walker, Kaboul, King, Assou-Ekotto, Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, Van der Vaart, Defoe.

If you look at that team it is arguably only Lloris, Vertonghen and Kane that make it. Maybe somebody else ahead of Aaron Lennon as well (Son?).

That Harry Redknapp Spurs team above would destroy this current Pochettino one I think. Imagine our defence with Bale, Van Der Vaart, Lennon and Defoe running at them?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Further to this.... I just took a look at the last 5 years for the Italian, German, French, Spanish and Portuguese leagues. I cannot see a single team who sit outside of the biggest five spenders in that country consistently finishing in the top 4. Spurs are the only team to have done this and Pochettino the only manager.

Maybe there's a Christian Gross lurking in the Swiss league or something?!?
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It’s not just about spending is it? We have the best chairman in the business who consistently gets the best deals buying and selling. The fact is we have after Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project the best squad in the PL. Whether we pay the 15th highest or 2nd highest wage bill or whatever you want to talk about is largely irrelative. Poch has the 3rd best squad of players to work with and has had for a couple of seasons now. The over achieving narrative no longer applies. Yes when he took over we were nowhere near the top 4 and were over achieving. Now as we have grown with the players he has at his disposal - being top 4 is no longer over achieving and the results from the last year suggest we are underachieving. So right now Poch has to show he has enough to take us that final step, has had numerous opportunities to do so - and has so far failed. The club won’t panic yet, but will need to see some green shoots from the current predicament. And unfortunately the realities are when dining at the top table you don’t have a finite amount of time, no matter how much we want the romance of Poch managing forever to continue....
 
Finney Is Back said:
The only problem is that was not anything like Redknapp's best Spurs team....

This was the team that played against Emirates Marketing Project in 2012:
Friedel, Walker, Kaboul, King, Assou-Ekotto, Lennon, Parker, Modric, Bale, Van der Vaart, Defoe.

If you look at that team it is arguably only Lloris, Vertonghen and Kane that make it. Maybe somebody else ahead of Aaron Lennon as well (Son?).

That Harry Redknapp Spurs team above would destroy this current Pochettino one I think. Imagine our defence with Bale, Van Der Vaart, Lennon and Defoe running at them?
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Wow...
Hugo, jan, rose or Davies (and I liked BAE), and take your pick in front with only bale and Modric getting in our current side

VDV was a great player and a scorer of important goals... we have a few of them now. Defoe is not as good as Kane
Lennon had pace but his end product was missing so much to take him to the next level
 
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