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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

parklane1 said:
Sacking Poch would be madness imo, he has done enough here to be given the benefit of the doubt ( at least until the end of the season). We have players in that team who have not been putting in the effort ( like they should), now i hear some fans saying that they will/may start putting in the effort for a new man.

Even if that is true than i am not sure i want to support players who have stopped working/playing because they MAY have fallen out with the manager yet can then put it in for a new manager. I have no desire to support players who are throwing their toys out of the pram because they may have been upset by what a manager has said to them.

They get paid a fudging fortune to kick a ball about and the least they could/should do is put the effort in for the thousands of fans who travel all over the place to support them on the pitch, not down tools because the manager may have upset them. fudge them all is what i say and that includes everyone of them who are going through the motions.

Funny thing is i have heard and read on here that when the Chelski players stopped playing for their manager they slagged the players off but now some of those same fans have sympathy for our players who have stopped playing for the BADGE.
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Welcome to modern football.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Your idealistic view could be happening now.
Poch is under no obligation to use the players supposedly causing the issues.
Remove the rot, let the healthy bodies thrive.

That aside, it really does seem the players have had enough, giving up against Bayern followed by yesterday's showing says as much to me

Can Poch pull it back? I certainly hope so, but I don't fancy his odds right now
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But this is still assuming that the ‘players causing the issues’ are basically working less hard, making everyone else down tools, and that if we get them out it’s all going to be ok. As I said, you can’t easily but players into boxes of ‘doesn’t want to be here, trying less and playing bad’ and ‘does want to be here, trying more and playing good’. Players on all sides of that equation are playing worse or better, but the whole dynamic is off.

You also have to consider that Poch wants to be able to use a full squad of players. I’m completely convinced that he views Sanchez, Foyth and Dele as key players for his next side. But he isn’t playing them as much now. Let’s take Dele - he is likely protecting Dele’s hamstrings for the longer term which is absolutely a service to him. He’s also protecting Lamela who has had a tonne of injuries to contend with. But that means you need Eriksen - and if Eriksen is still here, you might as well be able to use him rather than not. Because we have also loaned players out more now, so the next options become Jamie Bowden etc.

It may not be optimal, but maybe sometimes there’s no way to do something at the optimal level. Circumstance are such that players Poch has wanted to move for years are still here. They have taken up squad space, haven’t been replaced and still need to be used, if nothing else than to protect the players that will still be here longer term. I think we have to ride this through, and let Poch finally do the rebuild when he has the chance. I don’t see / really care about the idea of Poch turning it around with the core of these players. They are done. Next season will be an entirely new dynamic.
 
billyiddo said:
How well would Ferguson have been able to reinvent his teams at United if he could never replace the players that needed replacing?

Poch has been talking about a rebuild or a new beginning/fresh cycle for a pretty long while now - so it's not like he couldn't see what was coming.

I think this summer was finally the start of the rebuild he wanted and over the next 2 or 3 windows that will continue - but if results continue along their current path it may scupper his chances of seeing it through
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I could see the down the road issues that having blank transfer windows would cause. And I'm sure Poch could and has been the source of some of his frustrations.

I don't think there is massive blame to lay anywhere here.

Levy, at the time, quite rightly said 'you have free reign over your squad BUT the only money I can give is what you accumulate from sales'...he couldn't risk going balls deep at that moment.

These sales never happened and Poch back then might rightly think 'if they stay so be it, they are better than I can get'. The thing is, that pattern continues window after window as the rebuild gets delayed, stacking up a ton of work all at once.

Of course in the planning of this, they as a committee, would try and foresee the steps and probability of scenarios playing out. I would have confidently agreed we'd get 50/60m for CE and undoubtedly 25m for TA and probably 10m for Wanyama, Aurier, bit more for Rose. Remember these are players from a CL finalists team.
None of them go. If it because Poch doesn't want them too...no. Is it because Levy is asking too much...not this time, no. Is it because the players don't like what's on offer...in some cases yes. Is it because no-one is interested in them...in some cases yes. So the people in charge can't control that situation.

And as a sidenote to the above, we are now going to have to factor in the loss of 85m in fees we ain't getting for TA and CE. That is a big blow for our transfer kitty.

This is all accumulative and has lead us to now. We have at least started on the rebuild with newcomers BUT it has only started. This will, ironically ,probably take longer than the stadium.

As long as Poch himself wants to carry on, I still think, due to the landscape of the club, he is the best man to keep navigating us. A new man this season still has the next summer hoo haa ahead, players the aren't good enough and a relationship with the chairman to build.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
But this is still assuming that the ‘players causing the issues’ are basically working less hard, making everyone else down tools, and that if we get them out it’s all going to be ok. As I said, you can’t easily but players into boxes of ‘doesn’t want to be here, trying less and playing bad’ and ‘does want to be here, trying more and playing good’. Players on all sides of that equation are playing worse or better, but the whole dynamic is off.

You also have to consider that Poch wants to be able to use a full squad of players. I’m completely convinced that he views Sanchez, Foyth and Dele as key players for his next side. But he isn’t playing them as much now. Let’s take Dele - he is likely protecting Dele’s hamstrings for the longer term which is absolutely a service to him. He’s also protecting Lamela who has had a tonne of injuries to contend with. But that means you need Eriksen - and if Eriksen is still here, you might as well be able to use him rather than not. Because we have also loaned players out more now, so the next options become Jamie Bowden etc.

It may not be optimal, but maybe sometimes there’s no way to do something at the optimal level. Circumstance are such that players Poch has wanted to move for years are still here. They have taken up squad space, haven’t been replaced and still need to be used, if nothing else than to protect the players that will still be here longer term. I think we have to ride this through, and let Poch finally do the rebuild when he has the chance. I don’t see / really care about the idea of Poch turning it around with the core of these players. They are done. Next season will be an entirely new dynamic.
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You have convinced yourself, indeed.

I agree the dynamic is off.

And no, I don't put it down to rebels.

I put it down to a lack of leadership.

As sub optimal as things are, Poch should have control. And imo should be focusing on the next team now. Not nursing people inexplicably at the cost of sinking the season now and using players who are underperforming.

It's all about getting the best out of what you have. I don't think Poch is.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I could see the down the road issues that having blank transfer windows would cause. And I'm sure Poch could and has been the source of some of his frustrations.

I don't think there is massive blame to lay anywhere here.

Levy, at the time, quite rightly said 'you have free reign over your squad BUT the only money I can give is what you accumulate from sales'...he couldn't risk going balls deep at that moment.

These sales never happened and Poch back then might rightly think 'if they stay so be it, they are better than I can get'. The thing is, that pattern continues window after window as the rebuild gets delayed, stacking up a ton of work all at once.

Of course in the planning of this, they as a committee, would try and foresee the steps and probability of scenarios playing out. I would have confidently agreed we'd get 50/60m for CE and undoubtedly 25m for TA and probably 10m for Wanyama, Aurier, bit more for Rose. Remember these are players from a CL finalists team.
None of them go. If it because Poch doesn't want them too...no. Is it because Levy is asking too much...not this time, no. Is it because the players don't like what's on offer...in some cases yes. Is it because no-one is interested in them...in some cases yes. So the people in charge can't control that situation.

And as a sidenote to the above, we are now going to have to factor in the loss of 85m in fees we ain't getting for TA and CE. That is a big blow for our transfer kitty.

This is all accumulative and has lead us to now. We have at least started on the rebuild with newcomers BUT it has only started. This will, ironically ,probably take longer than the stadium.

As long as Poch himself wants to carry on, I still think, due to the landscape of the club, he is the best man to keep navigating us. A new man this season still has the next summer hoo haa ahead, players the aren't good enough and a relationship with the chairman to build.
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Nailed it.

This may be a tough season. It may be really hard for the next few weeks. But I think we will pick up again in our usual Christmas period acceleration and we’ll be back in contention. Maybe we don’t get top 4 this year - I don’t know. But one year out after massive over achievement, based on where we came from, it’s still miracles that have been worked to elevate us. And we would be back. This club is on a sound footing and will be able to invest to where we want to be. But we should stay the course and trust in the man that has more than earned it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
You have convinced yourself, indeed.

I agree the dynamic is off.

And no, I don't put it down to rebels.

I put it down to a lack of leadership.

As sub optimal as things are, Poch should have control. And imo should be focusing on the next team now. Not nursing people inexplicably at the cost of sinking the season now and using players who are underperforming.

It's all about getting the best out of what you have. I don't think Poch is.
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Well make that call when we’ve seen more of the season play out. Because my argument of the idea that he is protecting players is something that will benefit us months down the line and be helpful for these players careers over the long term. Short term pain doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Well make that call when we’ve seen more of the season play out. Because my argument of the idea that he is protecting players is something that will benefit us months down the line and be helpful for these players careers over the long term. Short term pain doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do.
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There is literally nothing behind your theory other than wishful thinking.

Will be nice if you are right, but o doubt you are. As you say we will see in time.
 
parklane1 said:
Getting rid of the players is the way i hope, unfortuately no one seems to want the likes of Toby, Rose etc.
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Yes it about opinions but both of the above always put in a shift for me.
It’s why I’m not totally convinced it’s down to the players alone.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
There is literally nothing behind your theory other than wishful thinking.

Will be nice if you are right, but o doubt you are. As you say we will see in time.
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??? As if your theory or argument is any more true then?

Do I have to say ‘I know Poch, I understand sports science, I understand how much he makes his decisions around it’ for it then to have more credibility? Because I don’t think there is anything outrageous in the idea that he rates Dele (for example) as one of his key players for the future, and similarly isn’t playing him so that he can ease him back in gently. It then becomes, if you don’t play Dele, who are the options?

The reasoning to get to this point isn’t too difficult. If we bomb Eriksen out, even though we are also carefully managing Lamela, we are seriously weakening ourselves when we have a CL campaign and have loaned a lot of players out.

We need him, even if it isn’t the old Eriksen, or his head is somewhat elsewhere. Because it is about protecting and helping the players that will be here. We could potentially suffer longer term by playing Dele or Lamela more now, and giving them even longer injuries in the future, by which time Eriksen has gone. But bombing him doesn’t help. It assumes he is actively causing an issue, which is no more proven than anything I have said.

You then have to play this back around the squad with the other players. How do you motivate them if you need them? Do you bomb them out? Do you treat them as second class? Do you have them feel like they no longer belong? It won’t be much help. It has already started with Eriksen - he has been left on the bench in big games and this will likely increase as the season gets further along. But I think Poch is making decisions based on long term health of the players rather than short term results, and it means we may suffer with the short term results but improve as the season goes on. That he can see the bigger picture in this regard is one of the many reasons we’d be foolish to let him go.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
??? As if your theory or argument is any more true then?

Do I have to say ‘I know Poch, I understand sports science, I understand how much he makes his decisions around it’ for it then to have more credibility? Because I don’t think there is anything outrageous in the idea that he rates Dele (for example) as one of his key players for the future, and similarly isn’t playing him so that he can ease him back in gently. It then becomes, if you don’t play Dele, who are the options?

The reasoning to get to this point isn’t too difficult. If we bomb Eriksen out, even though we are also carefully managing Lamela, we are seriously weakening ourselves when we have a CL campaign and have loaned a lot of players out.

We need him, even if it isn’t the old Eriksen, or his head is somewhat elsewhere. Because it is about protecting and helping the players that will be here. We could potentially suffer longer term by playing Dele or Lamela more now, and giving them even longer injuries in the future, by which time Eriksen has gone. But bombing him doesn’t help. It assumes he is actively causing an issue, which is no more proven than anything I have said.

You then have to play this back around the squad with the other players. How do you motivate them if you need them? Do you bomb them out? Do you treat them as second class? Do you have them feel like they no longer belong? It won’t be much help. It has already started with Eriksen - he has been left on the bench in big games and this will likely increase as the season gets further along. But I think Poch is making decisions based on long term health of the players rather than short term results, and it means we may suffer with the short term results but improve as the season goes on. That he can see the bigger picture in this regard is one of the many reasons we’d be foolish to let him go.
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Poch has been here 5 years, there is precedent for how he behaves/thinks/operates.

Your theory does not align.

Then there is just the plain experience of watching football. We have seen hundreds of scenarios play out over time, and whenever things go like they have with us there is almost always only one outcome. Only question is will it be sooner or later.

I do not claim to know anything for fact, but Occam's razor isn't a bad place to start.
 
The Lampard example is a good One, but not really fair. They have a better academy than us with talents thriving in the Championship before stepping up.

They have talented pros like Kante and jorginho to keep things together and are playing a system that doesn't put a lot of stress on their young players. Add to that, there is no pressure at the club nor outside of it.

Skipp for instance plays in a high pressure role, there is no way we could drop him in to this midfield. The same goes for Tanganga.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Poch has been here 5 years, there is precedent for how he behaves/thinks/operates.

Your theory does not align.

Then there is just the plain experience of watching football. We have seen hundreds of scenarios play out over time, and whenever things go like they have with us there is almost always only one outcome. Only question is will it be sooner or later.

I do not claim to know anything for fact, but Occam's razor isn't a bad place to start.
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You don’t think Poch makes decisions for the long term or would prefer to protect the conditions of players he really rates? I think it aligns completely.
 
Very Tottenham like performance from Emirates Marketing Project.

Funny thing is they might be having similar problems as us. Same manager, same message etc. Winning the league is routine for them, how do you continue to motivate that bunch of players.
 
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