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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

You talk quite a bit about Poch and his leadership qualities and style. Do you think he's acted like a leader when he's said things like:

"I could leave"
"If we'd won the CL, maybe I'd have left"
"I'm the coach not the manager. Go ask the club"
"This isn't my best squad of players"
"There are different agendas in the dressing room"
"Sissokos contract is nothing to do with me. That's between the player, the club and the agent."

They aren't exact quotes but I don't think I'm misrepresenting the actual quotes. If you were a player, would you follow a fella saying this stuff?

On this, I really don’t know. Particularly the ‘I might leave’ stuff. Maybe an attempt to be Bielsa style eccentric, keep the players guessing? Maybe screwing with the media because he clearly had no intention of leaving? I really don’t know. Not trying to justify it because it confuses me too. Maybe the fact that it’s confusing is the point.

The Sissoko stuff I just think is him trying to keep the focus on the collective, not on the individual. He clearly likes Sissoko.

Different agendas....kind of just the truth, isn’t it? Again, maybe best to keep it in house.
 
Not sure how much accuracy there is behind that athletic story, but, if our training system isn’t a regime something is wrong, they are there to work, it’s not a fudging holiday camp.
 
It’s four players max, I’m not sure Vertonghen wants out and would sign a new deal given the opportunity, that leaves three and no one is putting a gun to Poch’s head forcing him to play them.
and i think your last point is THE question mark for me - why not leave out those who want to leave ? are we okay if he played the youngsters/second tier but we kept losing ? this is something that needs to be very carefully managed because it could so easily go all wrong.
 
On this, I really don’t know. Particularly the ‘I might leave’ stuff. Maybe an attempt to be Bielsa style eccentric, keep the players guessing? Maybe screwing with the media because he clearly had no intention of leaving? I really don’t know. Not trying to justify it because it confuses me too. Maybe the fact that it’s confusing is the point.

The Sissoko stuff I just think is him trying to keep the focus on the collective, not on the individual. He clearly likes Sissoko.

Different agendas....kind of just the truth, isn’t it? Again, maybe best to keep it in house.

I honestly don't get where he's coming from either. But on the Sissoko stuff, I think it's a massive own goal. It's a soft chance to talk up a player and he's distanced himself from it and given a very strange answer. I said this earlier in the week but throw in the inference in his book that Sissoko was Levy's signing and if I'm Sissoko, I'm losing respect for the guy. Is it a coincidence that it was Sissoko criticising his tactics during the week?

There's a lot of people, me included, who are looking back at that bloody book. The stuff he wrote about Dier was wrong. I can't remember Dier playing many good games for us since. Of course there have been extenuating circumstances with his injuries but is that a coincidence?

He definitely should have kept the "different agendas" comments in house no matter how true they are. It feeds the media narrative and heightens the pressure.

I think Pochs judgement has been very very poor in this respect and he's not been the type of manager you could follow over the last while in my opinion.
 
and i think your last point is THE question mark for me - why not leave out those who want to leave ? are we okay if he played the youngsters/second tier but we kept losing ? this is something that needs to be very carefully managed because it could so easily go all wrong.

Big question and one there is no real answer to, you can bet your life he will take stick from some fans if that was the way he went. He can not win.
 
and i think your last point is THE question mark for me - why not leave out those who want to leave ? are we okay if he played the youngsters/second tier but we kept losing ? this is something that needs to be very carefully managed because it could so easily go all wrong.

It would be fine by me, anyone who does not want to give their all while pulling on the shirt can go fudge themselves, I don’t have a issue with players wanting to leave but I do when they are not trying, Tottenham Hotspur is bigger than any player or manager and will be here when everyone of them are long gone.
 
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Nailed it.

This may be a tough season. It may be really hard for the next few weeks. But I think we will pick up again in our usual Christmas period acceleration and we’ll be back in contention. Maybe we don’t get top 4 this year - I don’t know. But one year out after massive over achievement, based on where we came from, it’s still miracles that have been worked to elevate us. And we would be back. This club is on a sound footing and will be able to invest to where we want to be. But we should stay the course and trust in the man that has more than earned it.

Could not agree more.
Turf out the wasters and stick with the architect AND builder.
 
I get what you're saying but I read that as the source saying it's a dictatorial environment rather than the players being afraid to work.

I’m kinda happy with that too, there needs to be a chain of command and unquestioning following of instructions.

I think Poch is done and should be replaced but until that point he is the manager and the players should be doing exactly what he tells them.

Nobody in the playing or coaching staff is blameless. Well, other than Lamela and Sissoko obviously.
 
I’m kinda happy with that too, there needs to be a chain of command and unquestioning following of instructions.

I think Poch is done and should be replaced but until that point he is the manager and the players should be doing exactly what he tells them.

Nobody in the playing or coaching staff is blameless. Well, other than Lamela and Sissoko obviously.

That's a fair point and I agree to an extent. But in most fields of management now, you're encouraged to listen to the people you're managing and give them input into what they are doing so they buy into it. Should players be encouraged to challenge the manager or does he have to be the only one calling the shots?
 
It is actually very simple.
Do you believe that a new manager will get a bounce from these players, four or five of whom want to leave, or do you back the current manager to rebuild a new squad and side?

Here’s what I think.

We will hang in through Xmas. We will make changes in January. We will just about make top 4. CL knock-out is in the balance due to
Hugo injury. But we will scrape top 4 and Poch will build again.

I think NOT backing him over those who want to leave would be stupid.

As I said post-Bayern, this is all contingent on him wanting it. And if he does, he should have it. End of story for me.

BTW, someone brought an SAF comment up recently; he faced EXACTLY this situation four years in, and one not dissimilar 7 years in. If Bruce hadn’t nutted that winner in the 97th min, he might not have made it. We need to be brave as long as he wants to be.
 
It is actually very simple.
Do you believe that a new manager will get a bounce from these players, four or five of whom want to leave, or do you back the current manager to rebuild a new squad and side?

Here’s what I think.

We will hang in through Xmas. We will make changes in January. We will just about make top 4. CL knock-out is in the balance due to
Hugo injury. But we will scrape top 4 and Poch will build again.

I think NOT backing him over those who want to leave would be stupid.

As I said post-Bayern, this is all contingent on him wanting it. And if he does, he should have it. End of story for me.

BTW, someone bought an SAF comment up recently; he faced EXACTLY this situation four years in, and one not dissimilar 7 years in. If Bruce hadn’t nutted that winner in the 97th min, he might not have made it. We need to be brave as long as he wants to be.

If he wants it and starts behaving like a manager again, I'd give him the chance to turn it around. I just don't see that in him though steff.
 
https://theathletic.co.uk/1264474/2...evy-or-the-players-to-blame-for-spurs-crisis/

The chairman
Can you blame the man who has delivered everything he promised?
Remember that Daniel Levy’s ultimate responsibility is bigger even than trophies, results, and the fact that the team conceded seven goals to Bayern Munich on Tuesday night. His job is to safeguard the long-term stability of the club. And that means taking care of more important things than just the up-and-down results of the team.

The priority over the past decade has been the club’s infrastructure and Levy has secured it for a lifetime. In 2012 Spurs opened their new £50 million training ground, and six months ago, they opened their £1.2 billion new stadium. Each of those is rated the best in Europe. Last season, before the stadium opened, they made a record profit of £113 million. Whatever happens next with Pochettino, the players, even the ownership of the club, it will have a guaranteed level of stability and success because of these.

What makes this even more impressive is that Tottenham built this ground without benefactor investment. They had to borrow £637 million to pay for it but more than £500 million of that has been refinanced through Bank of America at low interest rates, securing the club’s stable financial future. The delays in opening the stadium — it was meant to open at the start of last season, not the end — are forgotten already.

“I understand, as I am a fan, clearly you want to win on the pitch,” Levy told the Financial Times last month. “But we have been trying to look at this slightly differently, in that we want to make sure we ensure an infrastructure here to stand the test of time.”

But has it come at the cost of the team?

Levy has always run a tight ship in terms of contracts and salaries, trying to regularly re-negotiate deals with incremental wage increases to preserve his negotiating power. And for years it worked well.

The problem came when the successes of the team outstripped the money they were offered. After a round of renegotiations in 2016, players were disappointed that finishing second in 2016-17 did not lead to another big round of pay-rises.

One source described Levy as “the Mike Ashley of the top of the league”, a chairman determined to get by spending as little as possible. When the squad learnt last year of Levy’s annual £6 million salary, it went down badly with players who have always felt underpaid.

Since then Levy has started to push the boat out on wages, with Kane, Alli and Lamela all signing big new long-term contracts last year, beyond the old restrictions. Kane’s, for example, increased from about £120,000 to a deal that starts at about £150,000 a week and could grow to £200,000. The flip side is that Levy has secured Tottenham’s control over their futures.

Spurs still spend only 38 per cent of their turnover on wages but the club have said they expect that ratio to increase towards 50 per cent. What Levy will not do is turn Spurs into Manchester United, throwing big long-term contracts at senior players just to keep them at the club.

Even on transfers the club has started to spend again after failing to sign anyone through 2018-19, with a £120 million net spend this summer that few would have expected, finally giving Pochettino new players to work with.

The problem is that Spurs had needed a major clear out of senior players, and a new generation of youngsters long before 2019. And that never happened.

You can argue that Levy should have done all this two years ago, to build on their 86-point season, and secure their best players long-term. But if you were expecting Levy to break his principles to gamble for success, you were looking in the wrong place.

The manager
Mauricio Pochettino knew that his sixth season would be difficult. He knew how hard it would be to keep motivating the same players he has had here for years, to keep getting the same level of physical and mental application they gave him when they were younger.

No one is more conscious of the threat of staleness than Pochettino himself. He has been desperate to end this old cycle here and start a new one. That is why he wanted to start moving on senior players years ago, and advocated a clear-out back in the summer of 2018.

Rose, Alderweireld, Wanyama and Sissoko all could have gone, just as Eriksen and Aurier could have gone this year. But only Kieran Trippier and Fernando Llorente ended up leaving.

Now Pochettino is left having to try to get more out of largely the same set of players he has been working with for years, some of whom he wanted sold, some of who are considering their next move. Pochettino also knows that during the course of his Spurs tenure, Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project have almost built new teams from scratch. And because they could never get rid of players, they struggled, at least until this summer, to get players in.

This means Pochettino is left with a squad that lacks the youthful vigour it had three or four years ago. It is not Pochettino’s fault that they do not have a peak-level Mousa Dembele, Kyle Walker, Rose or Wanyama any more, and they cannot easily replace them in the transfer market. The state of the squad is what Pochettino would call a “circumstance” outside his control.

So Spurs cannot play like they did when they would drive teams off the pitch with their energy. The style has changed in the past year or so, slightly deeper, slower and less about pressing. And that more adaptable style helped the team to get to the Champions League, a masterclass in flexible management, and an achievement Pochettino is not averse to mentioning.

This season Spurs still have to be pragmatic. That is why there is a focus on recovery between games, to keep the players functioning at a high level for as long as possible. They know these players cannot run now like they did in 2016.

The coaching staff try to keep changing their sessions and plans to keep the players on their toes, although some players are still finding it hard to stay mentally engaged.

Of course you can criticise specific selection or tactical decisions. Like the persistence with the 4-4-2 diamond system, which leaves Spurs exposed out wide. Even Moussa Sissoko admitted this week the team got tired quicker when they play that way.

You can ask whether Pochettino was right to start Christian Eriksen against Arsenal or Olympiakos, or bench him against Leicester or Bayern.

But the whole picture is far bigger than that, bigger than any individual decision or moment or game. And most of the problems Spurs are facing are outside of Pochettino’s control and beyond his capacity to fix.

Perhaps the strongest criticism of Pochettino concerns the mood. He has always been hot and cold, up and down, but increasingly so in recent months. After losing the Champions League final he was so upset that he went straight to his home in Barcelona, rather than flying back to London with the squad, raising eyebrows behind the scenes.

His comments about “different agendas” in the squad did not go down well with the players either, nor did the speculation in the past linking him with Manchester United or Real Madrid. Some players hoped that Pochettino’s latest contract, in May 2018, would guarantee spending on transfers and player contracts that never happened.

Trying to change the atmosphere might be the best thing Pochettino could do. This downturn is not personally his fault. It is what happens when a group of players overachieve for so long until their motivation fades, with reinforcements arriving too little, too late. But if results continue to get worse, then the pressure will all be on him.

(Photo: Bryn Lennon/Getty Images)


Find it difficult to argue with any of that.
It's not one thing, it's lots of little things catching up with us.
 
That's a fair point and I agree to an extent. But in most fields of management now, you're encouraged to listen to the people you're managing and give them input into what they are doing so they buy into it. Should players be encouraged to challenge the manager or does he have to be the only one calling the shots?

True, but in most fields you are dealing with colleagues also qualified in that industry. If any of our players have got their coaching badges maybe they are worth listening to.
 
True, but in most fields you are dealing with colleagues also qualified in that industry. If any of our players have got their coaching badges maybe they are worth listening to.
Most are also dealing in industries where those they manage are capable of one day managing for themselves. That's patently not the case here.
 
BTW, someone bought an SAF comment up recently; he faced EXACTLY this situation four years in, and one not dissimilar 7 years in. If Bruce hadn’t nutted that winner in the 97th min, he might not have made it. We need to be brave as long as he wants to be.

Indeed, i was working in Manchester about that time and there were several banners at games wanting Fergie out.


https://dispensablesoccer.com/17-may-1990-day-manchester-united-almost-sacked-sir-alex-ferguson/
 
But there is a broader issue than just players thinking about their next move. And that is a pervasive sense of tiredness, mental and physical, within the squad after five draining years. Most of these players — Lloris, Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Rose, Ben Davies, Lamela, Eric Dier, Eriksen, Kane, Dele Alli, Heung Min Son — have been here since Pochettino’s first or second season. And there is a common feeling that they have very little left to give.

Part of this is physical, after years of hard-running football and double sessions. One long-serving player has complained about the “same old sessions and messages”. But it is also mental, after five years of authoritative controlling management and a relentless schedule, with players also complaining at how few days they are given off. “The place is a regime and they’re sick of him,” one dressing room source said. “It’s his way or nothing, there is no balance. The players don’t get the impression they are trusted at all.”

Pochettino has not lost the dressing room, and the players know what a debt they owe to him. But they just cannot keep playing like they used to. “The players are not revolting against him,” said a source, “but they have been driven so hard, they don’t know if they have got anything left to give.”

Poch sounds way too old school already.
He could end up in the Sky Sports old man study complaining about modern players sat alongside Keane, Mourinho and Souness.

We need a proper man manager.
 
Because I'm a data nerd, I wanted to put together the table below. It shows the following stats for the 'big six':

- Average number of seasons that current first XI players have been at the club prior to 19/20
- Average number of seasons that current first team squad players have been at the club prior to 19/20
- The number of current first XI players that have been at the club for at least 4 seasons prior to 19/20
- The number of current first team squad players that have been at the club for at least 4 seasons prior to 19/20
- The number of seasons that the current manager has been at the club
- The number of trophies that the club has won in the last 5 seasons

upload_2019-10-6_19-10-10.png

For me this just highlights the uniqueness of our situation, in terms of having a manager and squad who've been together for ages without winning a trophy. I'm not suggesting this means that Poch (or the players) are helpless or blameless for our poor results this season, but I do think this is the root of our issues - a lack of energy and belief caused by a unique level of staleness.

Maybe the table is just telling us what we already know, and maybe I'm just a data geek, but for me the starkness of the data really hit the point home - so I thought I might as well share it!
 
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