Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[elltrev]

Well if you saw what SteveAWOL posted from MOTD about the fact from 14-15 season we still had 8 or so players in our squad now, whereas Liverpool only have 2 and Emirates Marketing Project 3.

That’s a massive indication about the inevitability of things going stale - especially when we don’t win any trophies. The players have been giving 110% for years now and have nothing to show for it, whilst watching their mates winning medals season after season. There’s going to be a point where they question all the effort being out in with no end result and inevitably down tools and that doesn’t have to be an intentional thing but a sub conscious aspect.

There was a lot of nonsense posted on here about what a successful transfer window we had when we signed no one because we’d managed to keep all our players, when in reality it’s set us back....

Yeah this is the fundamental issue for me, which I don’t think gets fixed by bringing in a new manager.

Who knows though, maybe it’s just the end of an era and we need a new manager AND a big turnover in players.

Personally I want Poch to stay though because I think he has earned the opportunity to rebuild the team himself.

 

[billyiddo]

How well would Ferguson have been able to reinvent his teams at United if he could never replace the players that needed replacing?

Poch has been talking about a rebuild or a new beginning/fresh cycle for a pretty long while now - so it's not like he couldn't see what was coming.

I think this summer was finally the start of the rebuild he wanted and over the next 2 or 3 windows that will continue - but if results continue along their current path it may scupper his chances of seeing it through

 

[Legohamster]

If we finish outside the top 4 this season, it’ll be so much harder to sign players. It’s not as if players join us for the wages...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Being in the CL hasn’t really

If we finish outside the top 4 this season, it’ll be so much harder to sign players. It’s not as if players join us for the wages...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

How well would Ferguson have been able to reinvent his teams at United if he could never replace the players that needed replacing?

Poch has been talking about a rebuild or a new beginning/fresh cycle for a pretty long while now - so it's not like he couldn't see what was coming.

I think this summer was finally the start of the rebuild he wanted and over the next 2 or 3 windows that will continue - but if results continue along their current path it may scupper his chances of seeing it through

He/recruitment team choose not to improve the squad over a couple of windows.

Money was there.

the delay on the rebuild is down to them.

Well if you saw what SteveAWOL posted from MOTD about the fact from 14-15 season we still had 8 or so players in our squad now, whereas Liverpool only have 2 and Emirates Marketing Project 3.

That’s a massive indication about the inevitability of things going stale - especially when we don’t win any trophies. The players have been giving 110% for years now and have nothing to show for it, whilst watching their mates winning medals season after season. There’s going to be a point where they question all the effort being out in with no end result and inevitably down tools and that doesn’t have to be an intentional thing but a sub conscious aspect.

There was a lot of nonsense posted on here about what a successful transfer window we had when we signed no one because we’d managed to keep all our players, when in reality it’s set us back....

He expects his players to be the fittest in the league, run further and have a smaller squad - as you say there is a point when the players will get bored of this and stop listening.

As ive said before, a new assistant/message maybe the way forward - but he is too loyal to do this - which is a strength and a weakness.

 

[billyiddo]

He/recruitment team choose not to improve the squad over a couple of windows.

Money was there.

the delay on the rebuild is down to them.

Money may or may not have been there but the squad was/is bloated and something which is out of his control if players don't leave to make way for new signings.

Sounds like we had Fernandez lined up and agreed to sign should Eriksen leave but without a buyer for him it was a deal that had to be passed on, as an example.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Being in the CL hasn’t really




He/recruitment team choose not to improve the squad over a couple of windows.

Money was there.

the delay on the rebuild is down to them.



He expects his players to be the fittest in the league, run further and have a smaller squad - as you say there is a point when the players will get bored of this and stop listening.

As ive said before, a new assistant/message maybe the way forward - but he is too loyal to do this - which is a strength and a weakness.

Fergie either change key players or brought in new coaches...
it’s part of that refresh
city did that too recently and have just brought in the Dutch guy to shadow pep (and be a fresh face)
Other teams have caught up with pressing and hard work (it’s not rocket science) and we have massively faded on that front

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Money may or may not have been there but the squad was/is bloated and something which is out of his control if players don't leave to make way for new signings.

Sounds like we had Fernandez lined up and agreed to sign should Eriksen leave but without a buyer for him it was a deal that had to be passed on, as an example.

And levy gets slated for that but as I’ve said a million times (it feels like it) if no one wants the player we can’t sell him... people then say we want too much - but we don’t seem to want silly money for anyone if you look at like for likes. No one wanted to pay £25m for Toby yet plenty thought that was cheap
Similarly you can’t sell a player if he doesn’t want to go to a club as seen with Wanyama turning down his move and eriksen only wanting clubs that don’t want him

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Funny you mention Chelsea, those players were able to turn it back on with a new manager a few times.

I DO think a new manager will can get them playing again.

Perhaps the issue is Poch. And not them being 'done with us'?

Perhaps they are in need of stimulation, new ideas and methods, and things are simply stale under Poch?

But why save these players when a big core of them will be moving, and sack one of the most talented Managers around?

Poch will go somewhere else, and we will be in the ludicrous situation of having paid him tens of millions to go so another club can have him for free.

I think this is a period to ride out. This squad has gotten stale and needs to be refreshed. The really brave thing to do would be to back Poch and go against the grain. In the face of bad results, not bowing to the pressure. To me it would be the smart thing, showing a clear clarity in our strategy, knowing that this coming summer we are finally going to be able to move these players on.

I see no point in bringing in a Jose, or another Manager just like Poch to do that rebuild. Poch is the one more than anyone who will know what we need, and has been asking to do it for 2 years.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And levy gets slated for that but as I’ve said a million times (it feels like it) if no one wants the player we can’t sell him... people then say we want too much - but we don’t seem to want silly money for anyone if you look at like for likes. No one wanted to pay £25m for Toby yet plenty thought that was cheap
Similarly you can’t sell a player if he doesn’t want to go to a club as seen with Wanyama turning down his move and eriksen only wanting clubs that don’t want him

Quite right. Most of the players that will go next summer could have gone this summer or last year but they didn’t. Levy hasn’t priced them out moves, not when as you say Toby’s had a low release clause which no one pays. We’ve let Rose stay home from pre season to find a club. We’ve let Wanyama talk. We’ve let Eriksen talk to clubs.

This is why I don’t blame Levy. Or Poch. In all of these situations, the players have decided they want out, but haven’t been able to secure moves to any club better than Spurs. We are a victim of the progress we have made. It’s like the players have made the decision not to sign new deals and stay fully committed based on our old rep, and once they look outside they realise that new Spurs is actually a decent spot, and not many clubs better than us want them. So they run down their contracts and make it much harder to plan for the future and actually do the rebuild.

Sacking Poch when he will almost be able to finally do what has needed to be done for a long time would he really silly if you ask me. These players are gone anyway, there’s no point trying to save a season when they are still the core.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Got more annoyed from the media on all of this because i think Poch needs to be asked the right questions, rather than the narrative of spurs dont spend money. I fully want Poch to stay but we needs to be asked the right questions and not be labelled as "spurs are lucky to have him". Reminds me of the Redknapp era with the "spurs have never had it so good" when a team of VDV, Bale, Modric, King etc etc was very good

The club

Kane signed a contract
Eriksen was offered parity with Kane, but just wants out (which is fair enough)
We were roundly criticised for having a 25mil release clause for Alderweireld, however nobody triggered it so couldnt have been that bad, plus if we had got rid of toby for 20mil we would have been laughed at, so cant swing both ways
Most of the LevyOut phalanx were frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Rose leaving, same with Jan, and Eriksen, as a lack of ambition
If you had a CL final squad and added Lo Celso, Ndombele, Sessengnon into it, not sure you can say its because of a lack of ambition *I will say CL masked the issues and unlucky with new players but.....

Now Poch

When the club are negotiating with those players in feb for new contracts, not sure it helps if the manager is helping if he is saying well if we win the CL ill walk away
If the issue is "people are pulling in different directions" why are those the players that are being turned to

Sanchez starts season as CB as Jan isnt "fit", is then thrown under the bus at RB and not then used, even though Toby is a experienced RB, so why move Sanchez there not toby???
Wanyama is on the bench instead of Skipp despite being fudged, then is used several times, then yesterday ditched again
KWP starts at RB doesnt do much wrong, then dumped out of the entire matchday squad
Dier having not been used as a 30min rotation after year out is then ditched into DM, without Sissoko to help with pace, or winks to help run play. (*yes he was dreadful)
Sissoko having held the midfield together last year is then moved to RB after a 10-men backs against the wall job v southampton
Skipp having looked great pre-season and used last year is given zero minutes
The bench choices are bizarre, 3 DMs on the bench the other week (southampton i think), Wanyama, Skipp, Dier

If the statement was, the squad are unhappy, im relying on the old-players then Ok to a point, but he is saying the old-players are the issue and then using only them and p*ssing off everyone else

I thought Son's body language over last 3 games said a lot and that is vvvv worrying

 

[SylDave]

Was talking about the summer signings yesterday I’ll happily put my hands I think I was wrong about Lo Celso being Eriksen’s replacement, the more I think about it the more I think Poch basically got what he wanted this summer, he was never building for 433, he was building a squad for the diamond I think his vision for this season would have seen something like this if Dybala had come off.

.......,,,,,,,,...,,,,,,Lloris

Foyth,,,Sanchez..,,,Vertonghen....Sessegnon

.……………………………Winks

……...……Ndombele………Lo Celso

………..………………Alli/Dybala

………… ……Kane/Dybala…Son

Gazza, Dier, Davies, Sissoko, Moura, Lamela, Alli/Dybala

In this scenario the squad looks more complete to a certain extent with obviously the transition being completed over the course of another couple of windows.

 

[glasgowspur]

Got more annoyed from the media on all of this because i think Poch needs to be asked the right questions, rather than the narrative of spurs dont spend money. I fully want Poch to stay but we needs to be asked the right questions and not be labelled as "spurs are lucky to have him". Reminds me of the Redknapp era with the "spurs have never had it so good" when a team of VDV, Bale, Modric, King etc etc was very good

The club

Kane signed a contract
Eriksen was offered parity with Kane, but just wants out (which is fair enough)
We were roundly criticised for having a 25mil release clause for Alderweireld, however nobody triggered it so couldnt have been that bad, plus if we had got rid of toby for 20mil we would have been laughed at, so cant swing both ways
Most of the LevyOut rude boys were frothing at the mouth at the prospect of Rose leaving, same with Jan, and Eriksen, as a lack of ambition
If you had a CL final squad and added Lo Celso, Ndombele, Sessengnon into it, not sure you can say its because of a lack of ambition *I will say CL masked the issues and unlucky with new players but.....

Now Poch

When the club are negotiating with those players in feb for new contracts, not sure it helps if the manager is helping if he is saying well if we win the CL ill walk away
If the issue is "people are pulling in different directions" why are those the players that are being turned to

Sanchez starts season as CB as Jan isnt "fit", is then thrown under the bus at RB and not then used, even though Toby is a experienced RB, so why move Sanchez there not toby???
Wanyama is on the bench instead of Skipp despite being fudged, then is used several times, then yesterday ditched again
KWP starts at RB doesnt do much wrong, then dumped out of the entire matchday squad
Dier having not been used as a 30min rotation after year out is then ditched into DM, without Sissoko to help with pace, or winks to help run play. (*yes he was dreadful)
Sissoko having held the midfield together last year is then moved to RB after a 10-men backs against the wall job v southampton
Skipp having looked great pre-season and used last year is given zero minutes
The bench choices are bizarre, 3 DMs on the bench the other week (southampton i think), Wanyama, Skipp, Dier

If the statement was, the squad are unhappy, im relying on the old-players then Ok to a point, but he is saying the old-players are the issue and then using only them and p*ssing off everyone else

I thought Son's body language over last 3 games said a lot and that is vvvv worrying

This the crux of it for me.
There's no one that's not at fault, and no one totally at fault. It's a perfect storm of small, but manageable issues all piling on top of each other and not getting addressed because everything is ok and we can get through it and come out stronger.
But then when it all starts to collapse in on each other because of things out with our control it gathers pace and we end up where we are.
DL, poch and the players share the responsibility.
We need someone to pull us together.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But why save these players when a big core of them will be moving, and sack one of the most talented Managers around?

Poch will go somewhere else, and we will be in the ludicrous situation of having paid him tens of millions to go so another club can have him for free.

I think this is a period to ride out. This squad has gotten stale and needs to be refreshed. The really brave thing to do would be to back Poch and go against the grain. In the face of bad results, not bowing to the pressure. To me it would be the smart thing, showing a clear clarity in our strategy, knowing that this coming summer we are finally going to be able to move these players on.

I see no point in bringing in a Jose, or another Manager just like Poch to do that rebuild. Poch is the one more than anyone who will know what we need, and has been asking to do it for 2 years.

Short version - it's much cheaper to change manager than entire squad

Even shorter version - if the manager has lost the players the whole discussion is moot

Longer version - imo you are far too preoccupied with a few want aways. The core of the squad is VERY good, and on long deals, and we have just started flexing our financial muscle.

 

[Benny_Lad]

Jan's the only one for me, I'd give him a contract. Think he's been the best of the renegade bunch.

You have to think as well though, all the other lads getting their verve back - we could tear this league up with a well organised and motivated side - before ANY transfers

Full backs?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Full backs?

Full backs what?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Short version - it's much cheaper to change manager than entire squad

Even shorter version - if the manager has lost the players the whole discussion is moot

Longer version - imo you are far too preoccupied with a few want aways. The core of the squad is VERY good, and on long deals, and we have just started flexing our financial muscle.

I think the point is the squad will feel refreshed this summer, because those few want always are experienced players, highly influential and will create the space for a new dynamic in the group to be formed.

It isn’t going to cost more or less than sacking Poch, because those players are going anyway and will need to be replaced. We will have the space to do so.

And I don’t think this is a case of the players stopping playing for him. It doesn’t tie into best boxes of the ones that wantaway trying less and making the most mistakes, and the ones loyal still bringing the spirit. I would say Winks is fully on board with Poch, and he has been making mistakes. Toby wants away but for the most part has been a pro. Rose wants away but still plays with total commitment. Lamela is on board but slacks on his pressing for their first goal yesterday.

The whole dynamic is off. It’s not wantaways and loyalists. But it has gone stale, there is a crisis of confidence and there needs to be a new dynamic formed, new leaders stepping up, new players making the existing ones sit up and take notice and raising their game. The point is that a few wantaways form the core of the influence, the leadership, the friendships, and getting them out will lead to a new core, with a new mentality, and will allow us to push on again. Poch hasn’t lost any managerial talent, he is just toeing a like between balancing the players that are still here and making the move forward, while protecting players in the squad and taking the long term view on their development.

The bombing you are looking for will happen as the season continues. Wanyama already seems like he’s had it, as Skipp was ahead of him yesterday. As we get into that period of players being able to take to other clubs, it will happen more. It took until about November for Poch to do it in his first season too. But this time it will be more gradual, because he is still respecting where the core of influence comes from in this squad. It is too entrenched and can’t be handled in the same way as before.

 

[Grays_1890]

Players shoulder huge blame in all this.

Rose and Aurier left home to find new clubs and couldn't

Toby couldn't leave on his own terms aka the 25m clause

No one came near Eriksen, people can say about last year of contract but he was pushing to leave and no one came close to showing firm interest. He over estimated his appeal.

We dodged a bullet not giving Toby and Jan new contracts, they both look shot.

This isn't gonna just be a case of "do we bring in a new manager" the player changes are needed and in huge numbers.

They can all go based on the last weeks showing, no pride in themselves or the club that they are representing. People will and generally find excuses for players but for me they shoulder a lot of the blame here

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think the point is the squad will feel refreshed this summer, because those few want always are experienced players, highly influential and will create the space for a new dynamic in the group to be formed.

It isn’t going to cost more or less than sacking Poch, because those players are going anyway and will need to be replaced. We will have the space to do so.

And I don’t think this is a case of the players stopping playing for him. It doesn’t tie into best boxes of the ones that wantaway trying less and making the most mistakes, and the ones loyal still bringing the spirit. I would say Winks is fully on board with Poch, and he has been making mistakes. Toby wants away but for the most part has been a pro. Rose wants away but still plays with total commitment. Lamela is on board but slacks on his pressing for their first goal yesterday.

The whole dynamic is off. It’s not wantaways and loyalists. But it has gone stale, there is a crisis of confidence and there needs to be a new dynamic formed, new leaders stepping up, new players making the existing ones sit up and take notice and raising their game. The point is that a few wantaways form the core of the influence, the leadership, the friendships, and getting them out will lead to a new core, with a new meteorology, and will allow us to push on again. Poch hasn’t lost any managerial talent, he is just toeing a like between balancing the players that are still here and making the move forward, while protecting players in the squad and taking the long term view on their development.

The bombing you are looking for will happen as the season continues. Wanyama already seems like he’s had it, as Skipp was ahead of him yesterday. As we get into that period of players being able to take to other clubs, it will happen more. It took until about November for Poch to do it in his first season too. But this time it will be more gradual, because he is still respecting where the core of influence comes from in this squad. It is too entrenched and can’t be handled in the same way as before.

Your idealistic view could be happening now.
Poch is under no obligation to use the players supposedly causing the issues.
Remove the rot, let the healthy bodies thrive.

That aside, it really does seem the players have had enough, giving up against Bayern followed by yesterday's showing says as much to me

Can Poch pull it back? I certainly hope so, but I don't fancy his odds right now

 

[SubZero]

Quite right. Most of the players that will go next summer could have gone this summer or last year but they didn’t. Levy hasn’t priced them out moves, not when as you say Toby’s had a low release clause which no one pays. We’ve let Rose stay home from pre season to find a club. We’ve let Wanyama talk. We’ve let Eriksen talk to clubs.

This is why I don’t blame Levy. Or Poch. In all of these situations, the players have decided they want out, but haven’t been able to secure moves to any club better than Spurs. We are a victim of the progress we have made. It’s like the players have made the decision not to sign new deals and stay fully committed based on our old rep, and once they look outside they realise that new Spurs is actually a decent spot, and not many clubs better than us want them. So they run down their contracts and make it much harder to plan for the future and actually do the rebuild.

Sacking Poch when he will almost be able to finally do what has needed to be done for a long time would he really silly if you ask me. These players are gone anyway, there’s no point trying to save a season when they are still the core.

Got to say that I agree with this. No matter how we look at it, we are facing quite a rebuild if we want to contend NOW. We have had more or less the same core for 6 seasons, where the group at that time was a perfect match for the manager at that time. The once young, talented and hungry squad is now either in their prime (age-wise) or beginning to fade into final paycheck-territory. The group has gone stale without trophies, and so has apparently the group dynamic. Nothing unusual about it, this will happen in most if not all organisations that fails to reinvent themselves and setting goals that are achievable while prioritizing the unrealistic. Sacking the manager will not change this fact. And fixing it isn't as easy as changing manager, playing him or her or moving them 2 yards to the left on the tactic board, or fielding whatever usable or useless combination of numbers with the sum of 10. Sticking your fingers in the ears to what has been brewing for over a season, papering over cracks including the biggest paper over the biggest crack of them all, and believing that everything lasts forever is what has put us in this situation, not our only playmaker suddenly wanting out. Think about it, we are asking questions to which Sissoko is one of the answers. A player that in our setup a mere two years ago barely looked like he could play football at all, who now in basically the same group is one of the best performers. That's how much we have regressed without noticing or caring because CL final. Bar a pityfully few good halfs, we haven't been playing convincingly well for a long, long time.

Because of our hesitation in the transfer market, what could have been reinforcements has now become an overhaul, with the extent of that overhaul dependant on where we set our aim. We are not serious title challengers, and despite our heroic 86-point season we haven't really been one either. By the looks of it we will not have a lot of what our system was built upon left next season, and we cannot afford to replace those parts nowhere near like-for-like as they will leave for free. Our manager will then have to adapt or even devise a new system and get the parts necessary in place for that system to work. I don't doubt that Poch is able to do that, but it worries me how he has utilized the resources at his disposal for the last year and a half. We all know his reluctance to use substitutions, but what frightens me more is how he has used them. Too many times he has left underperformers on the pitch while subbing better players. I will not call it favouritism, but it certainly is bewildering at times. Regardless of quotes in the media, which I trust very little anyway, this may very well be what's coming around to bite him in the ass now. We have had some exciting times, and having been regular CL-participants coupled with a cup or three, no matter how "small" would have lifted it and Poch into fantastic-status in my book. But now I worry a little, because if anything about this is relatable to the "real world", getting us back on track will on all accounts be neither easy nor quick. I really want Poch to succeed, and if I were in charge I would close all doors, switch off every microphone and let him have until christmas to sort things out, show that he have more than one plan in his head and get rid of disturbing elements in and around the dressing room. It is not failure to succeed that will or should lose you the job, it's failing to show that you will do whatever is necessary to succeed that does.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Players shoulder huge blame in all this.

Rose and Aurier left home to find new clubs and couldn't

Toby couldn't leave on his own terms aka the 25m clause

No one came near Eriksen, people can say about last year of contract but he was pushing to leave and no one came close to showing firm interest. He over estimated his appeal.

We dodged a bullet not giving Toby and Jan new contracts, they both look shot.

This isn't gonna just be a case of "do we bring in a new manager" the player changes are needed and in huge numbers.

They can all go based on the last weeks showing, no pride in themselves or the club that they are representing. People will and generally find excuses for players but for me they shoulder a lot of the blame here

Agree on all of that, seems the players and the manager both have flirted in various ways with bigger moves, and in the case of the players overestimated their worth
It may be that the players are demotivated or having a crisis of confidence because of this and the post the CL final they realised that was their chance

Jan - 2yrs left at the top maximum i suspect
Rose - Move abroad to a less physical league
Toby - Strange one, but looks like ending up lower than us rather than higher
Aurier - Already failed at us and PSG, probably ending up at a tier2 french club
Wanyama - Some sympathy as is trying to blag a 4yr contract on a 2yr body
Dier - Who knows if he can or will be given the chance to step up, but think he should refocus at CB
Poch - Probably has a very limited window to decide if to get out and blame levy or stay longer term and gamble on a rebuild that if it goes wrong, leaves him at PSG at best

 

[parklane1]

Sacking Poch would be madness imo, he has done enough here to be given the benefit of the doubt ( at least until the end of the season). We have players in that team who have not been putting in the effort ( like they should), now i hear some fans saying that they will/may start putting in the effort for a new man.

Even if that is true than i am not sure i want to support players who have stopped working/playing because they MAY have fallen out with the manager yet can then put it in for a new manager. I have no desire to support players who are throwing their toys out of the pram because they may have been upset by what a manager has said to them.

They get paid a fudging fortune to kick a ball about and the least they could/should do is put the effort in for the thousands of fans who travel all over the place to support them on the pitch, not down tools because the manager may have upset them. fudge them all is what i say and that includes everyone of them who are going through the motions.

Funny thing is i have heard and read on here that when the Chelski players stopped playing for their manager they slagged the players off but now some of those same fans have sympathy for our players who have stopped playing for the BADGE.