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*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Some european team ***

galeforce said:
The biggest crime of tonight would be if we didn’t address it.

We have major fudging issues that threaten the progress made in the last two decades.

We absolutely have to reverse our current trajectory.
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The biggest crime of tonight last night is, well, last night.

Its been a long time coming, its hardly like the performance was a surprise. Us know nothings on here called the disaster as soon as we saw the team sheet. The crime is that it was allowed to happen, that we have been building toward it. The crime is that since the summer Poch is setting us up for it.

We are past "crimes". Now we are into Rehabilitation or Punishment.


monkeybarry said:
It's time for Poch to manage. Let's see if he can.
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Its past that time. Poch hasnt managed since the CL final. Seems to have taken a sabatical and not told anyone.

Now its time for Poch to REALLY manage or face the consequences.

He might actually be able to save his tenure, and his legacy, but he is cutting it really close to the wire....


Benny_Lad said:
The players were playing for him Saturday. Only when they’ve downed tools would I consider replacing him. Tonight wasn’t downing tools imo, it was shoddy play and great finishing.
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I thought we were brick Saturday, in terms of set up. SCBC were cutting through us exactly how Bayern were, difference is they dont have anyone to really finish moves.

We showed some grit, some graft, same as last night I guess - but I dont know if that shows the players are still playing for the manager, or just their own personal pride.

There must be questions around the group now as to what the fudge Poch is actually doing....

Benny_Lad said:
Palace was good. We were then probably 1cm from winning away at a decent Leicester. We then saw off Southampton with 10 men. Before those 3 we got a point away to Arsenal. 7pts in the last 4 league games which included trips to Arsenal and Leic is proof that the players are playing for Poch imo.

I have no issue with a changed up side Sat. Get Lamela back in, maybe Dier.
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Palace made us look good. We did to them what any near competent team would have done. Palace just didnt show up, I didnt see it as a good performance then and I dont now.

Leicester we were ok, no more really. I felt like Leicester tried a Liverpool, early Blitzkreig then ran out of ideas. We looked comfortable for a while thanks to that but never especially good (or secure). And so it proved.

SCBC we didnt play well, the cut us open at will, but couldnt finish. I admire the gumption to dig in with 10 and weather it, and to go on to win it, but it wasnt a proper performance at all.

Dont forget Colchester...

Last night was the last in a growing line of performances ranging from "meh" to brick.
 
SylDave said:
I wouldn’t, with them two as the pivots we would still be open, nothing like the diamond leaves us but you need a foundation to build from, the sitter allows either Ndombele or Winks to play their best game, transition the ball forward quickly to the front four, and if we are dominating against a brick team they could push further forward, if Dier is no longer up to it for me a proper sitting midfielder needs to be our no 1 priority transfer wise, even ahead of a RB as with a proper formation the full back will get more cover.

And if that new DM has a much better passing range even better, but there is a reason the DM’s that meet that criteria play for the very best teams in the world.
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Yup, neither look nearly as comfortable as Mousa Dembele did at putting in a tackle. If Dier and Wanyama are too crocked to play CMF any more then might as well give Skipp a chance. Or even maybe try Sanchez there (like how Ledley was introduced to first team) as even though his passing ain’t up to much at least he has plenty of pace and is a strong tackler.

scaramanga said:
I'd be happy with Winks and N'Dombele as a pairing.
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From what I’ve seen of N’dombele so far it looks like (similar to Pogba) he is better going forward with the ball and needs a Kante to do the tracking back for him. Perhaps he just needs a few months to get up to speed but for now him and Winks don’t seem to be offering defence any protection.
 
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SylDave said:
I wouldn’t, with them two as the pivots we would still be open, nothing like the diamond leaves us but you need a foundation to build from, the sitter allows either Ndombele or Winks to play their best game, transition the ball forward quickly to the front four, and if we are dominating against a brick team they could push further forward, if Dier is no longer up to it for me a proper sitting midfielder needs to be our no 1 priority transfer wise, even ahead of a RB as with a proper formation the full back will get more cover.

And if that new DM has a much better passing range even better, but there is a reason the DM’s that meet that criteria play for the very best teams in the world.
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The whole point of the double pivot is that two passers are more defensively sound than one DM. It's a waste of a passer putting a DM into one of those positions.

A slightly tangential discussion is that I don't believe Dier is a DM - he's more than that in terms of his passing and how he can read the attacking side of our game.
 
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scaramanga said:
The whole point of the double pivot is that two passers are more defensively sound than one DM. It's a waste of a passer putting a DM into one of those positions.

A slightly tangential discussion is that I don't believe Dier is a DM - he's more than that in terms of his passing and how he can read the attacking side of our game.
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I know that, and in a ideal world we would have one player there who is more of a Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets, but Winks and Ndombele would be wasted as players, we would not get the best out of either of them as a partnership, if Dier is capable of playing he has to right now to give the give the cb’s protection and allow the full backs to overlap, it would just make us a more solid team.
 
SylDave said:
I know that, and in a ideal world we would have one player there who is more of a Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets, but Winks and Ndombele would be wasted as players, we would not get the best out of either of them as a partnership, if Dier is capable of playing he has to right now to give the give the cb’s protection and allow the full backs to overlap, it would just make us a more solid team.
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Im with Scara on that one.

In most games we dominate, possession and territory, so having two ballers there is very much to our benefit. And two bodies in there is usually enough to win the ball back.

Lets be honest, there really is only a handful of games where we can expect to have to do any considerable amount of defending - at which point, sure, bring in a more defensive player.
 
braineclipse said:
Have to add. I feel sorry for a lot of the players. I saw a lot of effort, motivation, several players seemed to run themselves into the ground. They were brave, they didn't hide, they tried. Thought several players had very good games. Imo Pochettino failed them badly and they were left on the pitch having to suffer as a result despite all their best efforts.
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I agree. I was sat above the goal we were attacking 2nd half and you could visibly see some of the players not able to press that intensely but also knowing they had to do something to get the ball back. I absolutely love H but he didn't know whether to stick or twist with the press, and when he did it was just a mini press and they by passed it with ease. The last 30 mins we needed (imo) Son, Moura, Lamela and Eriksen (3 fresh legs + Son) all buzzing about their back 4 and CMs. This was our only chance to squeeze possession back.

As it was we have Sissoko wide left, Son wide right, and Kane trying to work 2 CBs with the rest of the players nowhere near.

Some bizarre systems are playing out and that's the worrying thing.
 
Bizzare systems and selections aside (e.g. why start Lamela on the bench on Saturday and again on the bench yesterday??), it would seems the players efforts on holding the lead on Saturday eventually caught up with them...
 
glorygloryeze said:
Bizzare systems and selections aside (e.g. why start Lamela on the bench on Saturday and again on the bench yesterday??), it would seems the players efforts on holding the lead on Saturday eventually caught up with them...
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We'd have been OK if we hadn't spent the first 60 mins sprinting around trying to cover the space our system left them.

gHod pointed it out as well I think - watch how much lateral movement our midfield needs to cover the space when we're in a diamond. Kovac took about 20 mins to see it and work it out - Poch spent the next 70 either not noticing or not knowing how to fix it.
 
scaramanga said:
We'd have been OK if we hadn't spent the first 60 mins sprinting around trying to cover the space our system left them.

gHod pointed it out as well I think - watch how much lateral movement our midfield needs to cover the space when we're in a diamond. Kovac took about 20 mins to see it and work it out - Poch spent the next 70 either not noticing or not knowing how to fix it.
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And to be fair, as much as I love Hoddle, he is rarely that incisive with his commentary. He normally witters nonsense but is very pro Spurs.

Last night he was tearing the diamond to shreds from very early on, and he was absolutely on the money with all his comments.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Im with Scara on that one.

In most games we dominate, possession and territory, so having two ballers there is very much to our benefit. And two bodies in there is usually enough to win the ball back.

Lets be honest, there really is only a handful of games where we can expect to have to do any considerable amount of defending - at which point, sure, bring in a more defensive player.
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Look at the difference Dier made on Saturday by just his presence on the pitch, Southampton suddenly stopped carving us open, I would hardly call Southampton more than a average team to be fair, I know the ten men and all plus the diamond so it’s not really a fair comparison, but we played a 4231 in Athens with Ndombele and Winks, we were still getting ripped to shreds.

Of course both Winks and Ndombele are better footballers than Dier but I am firm believer that the best 11 players don’t make the best team.
 
scaramanga said:
We'd have been OK if we hadn't spent the first 60 mins sprinting around trying to cover the space our system left them.

gHod pointed it out as well I think - watch how much lateral movement our midfield needs to cover the space when we're in a diamond. Kovac took about 20 mins to see it and work it out - Poch spent the LAST 12 MONTHS not noticing or not knowing how to fix it.
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I corrected you in bold, sorry just had too.
 
SylDave said:
Loon at the difference Dier made on Saturday by just his presence on the pitch, Southampton suddenly stopped carving us open, I would hardly call Southampton more than a average team to be fair, I know the ten men and all plus the diamond so it’s not really a fair comparison, but we played a 4231 in Athens with Ndombele and Winks, we were still getting ripped to shreds.

Of course both Winks and Mdombele are better footballers than Dier but I am firm believer that the best 11 players don’t make the best team.
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I agree the best 11 dont make the best team. Its largely why Im so completely disillusioned with the national team.

As you say, SCBC really isnt a fair comparison. Though in seeing Diers impact I did hope Poch would respond by moving back to a 4231 now that we had someone to really help make it thrive.

The Athens game was a brick show, and I think it speaks more to the current rot at the club than any particular formation to be honest.

This is the thing that I want, I want to see systemic improvement. Signs there is a plan, signs it is being worked on in training, signs we all know where we are going/how to get there.

And fundamentally, that is whats lacking. The Diamond/not diamond debate is a symptom of Pochs apparent ignorance to what the team needs. The real issue is not the formation, its that lack of giving a brick.
 
scaramanga said:
The whole point of the double pivot is that two passers are more defensively sound than one DM. It's a waste of a passer putting a DM into one of those positions.

A slightly tangential discussion is that I don't believe Dier is a DM - he's more than that in terms of his passing and how he can read the attacking side of our game.
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In my view, you still need someone who is defensively aware in those positions and neither Winks or Ndombele are defensively aware or even close to it.

Don’t agree on Dier. I think he’s quite limited offensively but I’d have him in the team right now at centre mid if he’s fit.
 
scaramanga said:
We'd have been OK if we hadn't spent the first 60 mins sprinting around trying to cover the space our system left them.

gHod pointed it out as well I think - watch how much lateral movement our midfield needs to cover the space when we're in a diamond. Kovac took about 20 mins to see it and work it out - Poch spent the next 70 either not noticing or not knowing how to fix it.
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That's why I don't understand coming away from the 4231. The wides of the 3 always done the first defensive job and helped the full back - which is needed!
 
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