*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Some european team ***

[glorygloryeze]

You have to wonder if there were other targets in the summer that we missed out on who were dcms that we didn't hear about..you would hope so at least anyway...

 

[parklane1]

Thanks for the summary. It's always interesting to hear views from within the stadium...who do you think yesterday were the players who weren't putting in a shift?
I ask, because i always find it a fine line between not putting in required effort vs the system meaning you "run on a treadmill but don't go anywhere", i.e. put in a lot of effort but in vain

I do not want to really slag individual players off specifically ( as all players have bad games) but those who looked as if they had given up included most of them. Having watched most of the players over the last few years at games there were a few who looked as if they were going through the motions and wanted to get the game over with.

We can slag of systems ( and some fans seem to be obsessed with doing that) but at the end of the day no system will work if some players are not putting in the work. We have players who have gone past their sell by date ( imo) Rose, Toby ( although i will say he has looked more like his old self in some games this season), the last 15 mins was when the effort really dropped and having played at a decent level myself i would have gone mad at those who did that.

Getting beat that badly is no reason ( imo) to stop working but we seemed to have given up the basics and as i have said that imo is unforgivable.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We can slag of systems ( and some fans seem to be obsessed with doing that) but at the end of the day no system will work if some players are not putting in the work.

It goes both ways though.

First half particularly, I cant fault the players for work ethic, at all - but tactically they were stuffed from the first whistle. Like trying to push a boulder up hill.

The system needs to suit the players, and vice versa, and everyone needs to believe in it for it to work.

If either is lacking, its going to go badly. Sometimes thats in the players and their application (for me, not last night), and sometimes thats in the manager doing rather strange things and setting them up to fail.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I thought their front 4 were formidable. Their midfield "meh". Their defence rather poor.

In terms of Bayern sides, probably the worst Ive seen in years.

In terms of general quality, I think they are a decent team, above average, but nothing like top class.

I agree which scares me

 

[DeanoAustin]

xG however, suggests we were not so ridiculously open. I'm not saying it was a defensive masterclass, but they scored 7 goals from a xG of 1.27! It was one of those games where everything went in for them. These games happen and we happened to be on the wrong end of it. The overreaction by a lot on here is because it happened to come at a time when the team is still finding its feet and has put in mixed performances. But the performance in this game was actually quite decent. We were undeservedly down at halftime and had to chase the game and whenever you are chasing the game against a team like Bayern, you take a risk.

In any case, I had said a few years back that there will come a time under Poch when the team will be wobbling and that it is important to be patient while he works his way through the wobble. Well, we're in it now, so let's give the guy the chance to pull us out of it. If nothing has changed by the end of the season, we re-evaluate and maybe then we can say that Poch took us as far as he could, or that the team is not responding to him any longer.

This is one of those where watching the game tells you more than the stats. Firstly, they had 10 shots on target in the game I think. That’s very much on the high side for us to be conceding. Yes they were clinical but f**k me, we cough up a lot of chances.

Secondly, there is acres of space in front of our back 4. It’s happened in several games this season. And the amount of times a ball over the top completely exposes our centre backs is criminal. They are terrified of pace. In the first half, the first chance came when Toby was one on one. He was done for pace and fell over. One of the goals last night, he backed off, backed off, backed off because he was terrified of committing and being done. Eventually, the fella had a chance to slot it past Hugo and did it. We can’t defend high up the pitch with Toby and Jan and we can’t defend deep if they don’t have someone with a defensive brain sitting in front of them.

The Leicester game, Maddison scores the winner from the edge of our box. Was there a challenge? Not that I recall. Last night, the equaliser comes from Ndombele wafting a leg rather than putting in a proper challenge or, failing that, not committing and just making life awkward for the Bayern player. The Olympiacos goal that gets them back in the game comes from a bit of pace that terrified Davies and Jan.

We’re open and we’re easy to score against. And it’s not improving.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I agree which scares me

Genuinely believe if that were vintage Poch Spurs last night we would have won comfortably.

I dont believe there is an argument to say they were especially good and thats life...

(not that Ive seen that argument raised really).

 

[StephenH]

Bayern were so comfortable, even when the goal went in.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Genuinely believe if that were vintage Poch Spurs last night we would have won comfortably.

I dont believe there is an argument to say they were especially good and thats life...

(not that Ive seen that argument raised really).

As I said earlier I thought we had the better play in first half by some way

Son was bit greedy, we had the ball cleared off the line and went through them with ease

Second half we got caught down Auriers side too often and it killed the game

Their final goals came when we literally went full cards in with no midfield

 

[DeanoAustin]

Not a good night at all do not think i have seen a Spurs team capitulate like that for a very long time. The players looked at a loss what to do and there was no one on the pitch to drive them on. We have far too many players who are just going through the motions at the moment and we lack winners on the pitch.

I have said for years that we DO lack the winning attitude among some of the players ( and have took a lot of stick for saying just that) but you have to be blind after that show not to see that. Where do we go from here???

I do not think getting rid of Poch now ( like some are suggesting) is the answer but we/he do need to start rattling some cages and kicking some arses of certain players who think they are doing us and the team a favour by wearing our shirt.

Watching Poch after the game he looked shell shocked and maybe he needs to have a rethink about first his tactics and secondly replacing some players who think they are doing us all a favour by wearing our shirts.

We all have our favourite players but there are a few who are just not putting the effort in and we need to root them out before that attitude spreads to the players who are busting a gut for us.

I will end by saying that Bayern were very good last night and imo the best team i have seen at the Lane for a long time, but we were crap and its not good enough for any fans but especially those that spend all their money actually going to games.

I have watched far worse teams in a Spurs shirt over the 50 odd years i have been traveling around but some of those teams did not have the quality in numbers that we have now and I/we the supporters could see that and accept it. Now we have players who should be doing MUCH better and are failing to do that.

Before anyone accuses me for going overboard with my grumbles but IMO last night we threw the towel in and that in my eyes is unforgivable.

I agree with your post but this sentence is the most instructive of them all because I think it sums up Poch more than anyone right now. And it’s for that reason, I really think his time is up.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As I said earlier I thought we had the better play in first half by some way

Son was bit greedy, we had the ball cleared off the line and went through them with ease

Second half we got caught down Auriers side too often and it killed the game

Their final goals came when we literally went full cards in with no midfield

Funny how differently people see the game.

I thought first half we were a shambles. Attacking well with numbers, but no real structure, and wide open through midfield (as we were all night).

It was end to end and scrappy for a while, then we ran out of steam and Bayern composed themselves. Only ever going to be one result IMHO.

Although I never thought it was going to be such a hiding, I never thought we were really in the game. Let alone dominant or getting the best of a whole half.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Funny how differently people see the game.

I thought first half we were a shambles. Attacking well with numbers, but no real structure, and wide open through midfield (as we were all night).

It was end to end and scrappy for a while, then we ran out of steam and Bayern composed themselves. Only ever going to be one result IMHO.

Although I never thought it was going to be such a hiding, I never thought we were really in the game. Let alone dominant or getting the best of a whole half.

Did you watch on TV?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Did you watch on TV?

I did

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I did

Hence a very different view
I watched in the south stand so I got one perspective and no replays or commentary’s
We seemed to cut through them easily and their defence was all over the place

 

[parklane1]

It goes both ways though.

First half particularly, I cant fault the players for work ethic, at all - but tactically they were stuffed from the first whistle. Like trying to push a boulder up hill.

The system needs to suit the players, and vice versa, and everyone needs to believe in it for it to work.

If either is lacking, its going to go badly. Sometimes thats in the players and their application (for me, not last night), and sometimes thats in the manager doing rather strange things and setting them up to fail.

Players get paid to play not choose what system they want to play in. Far to much is blamed on systems in todays game ( not saying that they are all good or bad). Far to many fans think that because they are obsessed with playing (false) games on puters and winning brick it makes them experts, they are not ( not accusing you of doing that).

Of course there are many ways of playing games but more important are the attitudes of players rather then what system they are asked to play. No one ( not me) is saying Poch does not make mistakes ( never met anyone who does not) but players are paid to do a job and for them not to perform to their max and then try and blame the system is wrong. Having said that i have not heard of any of the players who have done that, its mostly fans who do it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Hence a very different view
I watched in the south stand so I got one perspective and no replays or commentary’s
We seemed to cut through them easily and their defence was all over the place

We did, Im not arguing with that. Have stated a few times we were attacking well.

I just dont think that alone constitutes a good performance, nor dominance of a half of football (which we lost 1-2 as well!)

The advantage of the diamond seems to be numbers in attack, so we do at times look effective with it in that aspect. However, for me, the strategy was as much as "get players forward and let them work it out", and it left us woefully exposed.

BM were rubbish at the back. So were we. So it was a ding dong playground game for a while. Before they remembered to just play football instead...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Players get paid to play not choose what system they want to play in. Far to much is blamed on systems in todays game ( not saying that they are all good or bad). Far to many fans think that because they are obsessed with playing (false) games on puters and winning brick it makes them experts, they are not ( not accusing you of doing that).

Of course there are many ways of playing games but more important are the attitudes of players rather then what system they are asked to play. No one ( not me) is saying Poch does not make mistakes ( never met anyone who does not) but players are paid to do a job and for them not to perform to their max and then try and blame the system is wrong. Having said that i have not heard of any of the players who have done that, its mostly fans who do it.

I dont play computer games at all. And before you mention it, I dont do twitter either.

Its all well and good to say players get paid to play games (and I certainly believe in a managers authority) its foolish to state it as if any player can work in any position/set up.

Up until the end when they players clearly just gave in, I cant fault them for effort. They were all working hard. However, they were also set up in a way that robs almost every one of them of the opportunity to do well.

Thats not the players fault.

 

[parklane1]

I agree with your post but this sentence is the most instructive of them all because I think it sums up Poch more than anyone right now. And it’s for that reason, I really think his time is up.

That is assuming they are not putting the effort because of Poch, not sure i would put that down to him to be honest. They may have fallen out with him but even that is no reason for players to cheat the fans. Who knows.

 

[parklane1]

I dont play computer games at all. And before you mention it, I dont do twitter either.

Its all well and good to say players get paid to play games (and I certainly believe in a managers authority) its foolish to state it as if any player can work in any position/set up.

Up until the end when they players clearly just gave in, I cant fault them for effort. They were all working hard. However, they were also set up in a way that robs almost every one of them of the opportunity to do well.

Thats not the players fault.

Good to hear that you are wise enough not to play pu ter games or go on T w a t t e r as for the rest we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We did, Im not arguing with that. Have stated a few times we were attacking well.

I just dont think that alone constitutes a good performance, nor dominance of a half of football (which we lost 1-2 as well!)

The advantage of the diamond seems to be numbers in attack, so we do at times look effective with it in that aspect. However, for me, the strategy was as much as "get players forward and let them work it out", and it left us woefully exposed.

BM were rubbish at the back. So were we. So it was a ding dong playground game for a while. Before they remembered to just play football instead...

The diamond previously has given us no numbers in attack

We did the same vs Leicester and it worked to a point too before getting caught out in the end

It’s weird as to why players can’t keep going with it

But for now Poch has to get back to basics

 

[DeanoAustin]

That is assuming they are not putting the effort because of Poch, not sure i would put that down to him to be honest. They may have fallen out with him but even that is no reason for players to cheat the fans. Who knows.

It’s all conjecture and speculation on our part but from what I see, I think the players have maybe stopped believing in him.

He’s sent out very mixed messages over the summer about his squad, his role and his future. How can he preach unity and togetherness with the nonsense he’s been spouting to the press? You can’t stand behind a fella who looks like he wants to leave the club. I also think he’s too bloody emotional. I will admit that this is hindsight because I didn’t call it at the time but his reaction in Amsterdam was a bit much. Yes it was an emotional evening and all of us felt it but you want your leader saying “Alright lads, enjoy the moment but we’ve got a final to win”. I don’t want him blubbing on tv and thanking the football gods. I know that’s harsh but when you throw in the nonsense about auras and lemons and the inconsistency in his approach, I just think what we’re seeing on the pitch right now is a manifestation of a manager who has lost respect and who isn’t in control of himself, much less his squad of players.

Other people will have a different view and that’s fair enough. Before I get totally flamed, it is just an opinion.