Harry Winks

[Yiddo]

Another young English player who came up through the academy and declares his love for the club. He is no better than Carrol and Mason.

 

[the goat]

I've said since he came into the team, he is not powerful enough, that's nothing to do with size its about power
he is not a DM, he doesn't see where the danger is coming from,
he is an ok player, but he is not a DM,

 

[SteveAWOL]

I've said since he came into the team, he is not powerful enough, that's nothing to do with size its about power
he is not a DM, he doesn't see where the danger is coming from,
he is an ok player, but he is not a DM,

Feel sorry for Winks being hung out to dry in this diamond formation, as playing the deep position doesn’t suit his abilities at all.

Dier might be able to do a job there or even give Skipp a try but if Pochettino is going to persist with diamond then surely Winks needs to be either on left or right midfield going box to box.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Another young English player who came up through the academy and declares his love for the club. He is no better than Carrol and Mason.

Poch loves those sort of a player when what we needed was him to love Onomah and turn him into the next Dembele.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I know he gifted a goal. But I actually thought he did okay tonight. He's been improving, but he is not an elite CL level player. He's brushed off the ball too easily. With Dier behind him he might have more license to play his game driving forward with the ball (good at it) and passing.

I thought he was terrible. The occasion that he gave the goal away was not the first time he had given the ball away in a silly position, there had already been three of four warnings before then. He also has a habit of passing the ball to teammates with their back to goal and a player directly on them when under no pressure himself. His defensive positioning is also poor. Sometimes it looks as though he just charges around after the ball like a 10 year old.

I think it is clear that he is the wrong player to be playing at the base of a midfield diamond, unfortunately I don't think he has enough about him physically to play on either the left or right side of the diamond either. We either change our shape (please Poch) or we take him out of the team. Even if changing shape I'm not sure he should be a starting player for us at the moment.

In the short term I think we need Dier back in the team to give us some sort of shape when we don't have the ball. IMO Dier is not good enough to be the long term answer and we need a better player to play in that position. The problem is that it is unlikely we would be able to find a truly class player for this position until next summer so might have to muddle through a bit until then.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Playing Ndombele as the sitting DM would be a absolute travesty and waste of talent, Winks and Ndombele and I guess Sissoko should all be competing for the same place in the team.

N'Dombele would be as bad as Winks playing as a sitting DM. He doesn't have the defensive nous to play there. He also looks weak in the tackle. Dier should play there IMO and if not him then Sissoko (although if we persist with the diamond then Sissoko probably needs to play on either the left or right side of it until Lo Celso is back).

 

[Finney Is Back]

I dunno how anyone could think the difference between Modric and Winks is physical. Modric is one of the weediest players I've ever seen but is a genuine giant inside.

Modric was (is) a World class player. Winks is a mid table PL starting player or a top 6 squad player. That's not a particularly disparaging remark about Winks, getting to that standard is admirable and top 6 clubs do need players like Winks in their squad who love the club and can play a role from the bench or covering injuries.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Funny thing was I thought he played well until he made a few errors late first half and then second half. Midfield was even more open when he went off at 2-4.

That's because we abandoned the ineffective diamond and replaced It with the all out Gerry Francis Polo mint formation!

 

[Finney Is Back]

He seems to be being spacegoated right now, not sure why.

Wasnt his finest performance, but we had plenty worse out there.

Only Aurier IMO.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yes I get the impression you have it in for Winks.

Im a big fan, I think he is being sold short right now, and I think he is doing his best in less than ideal circumstances. Which isnt to say he is playing especially well.

But then I dont expect you to agree, after all you think less of my football opinions than anyone bar Scara...

 

[fernadez]

Apart from being reactive defensively the main issue with him is that he plays passes that invite pressure from the other team.

If you've played centre midfield, you'll know that it's not just about completing your pass. As you can see the whole pitch in front of you, you're the quarterback for your team. If the pass is out to the right back/midfielder but he's immediately pressed and is forced to play it back/misplaces his pass due to pressure/losses the ball, that is a bad pass from the centre midfielder in my book.

You want to be playing passes that are not just reaching the player but are progressive in nature, maybe a yard in front that they can run onto for example...I appreciate at times it will just be a good press from the other team, but I noticed on Saturday that a lot of his passes resulted in the person passed to not being able to do anything with the ball or lose it.

I just think with someone he can trust behind him he'll go up another level in performance.

This was my post last week. Last night was the personification of what I was trying to say.

With added spinning.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes I get the impression you have it in for Winks.

Im a big fan, I think he is being sold short right now, and I think he is doing his best in less than ideal circumstances. Which isnt to say he is playing especially well.

But then I dont expect you to agree, after all you think less of my football opinions than anyone bar Scara...

I don't have it in for him. I think he is a decent squad player. I would be sad if we were to lose him from the club. Clubs need dependable squad players, Alex Ferguson was a manger that always seemed to advocate that with several players no better than Winks playing a reasonable bit part roles in title wining teams there.

I think this season for Winks has been a mixed bag with a few good games and a few poor games. Last night he was absolutely terrible though, I don't know how anyone could watch that performance and see anything else, even ignoring him giving the ball away for the goal he was an accident waiting to happen with his passing and positioning. As I mentioned earlier I think a lot of that is down to him playing in a position that he is ill equipped to play. He shouldn't be playing as the deepest midfielder in any team as he is not intelligent with his defensive positioning.

I agree with you 100% that Winks is doing his best. I have no issues with his effort at all, just his quality of play in the position that he is being asked to play.

While Dier may be poorer on the ball than Winks and less mobile, his defensive mindset would at least give our defence some protection when we're not in possession. It is for that reason I think we need to take Winks out of the team and get Dier in there. Winks can then compete with N'Domble, Lo Celso (when fit) and Sissoko to play as one of the left/right sided midfielders in the diamond (assuming Poch sticks with that) though I currently have him as last choice out of that group and I would perhaps even prefer Lamela to him on the right of a diamond.

If we revert back to a 4-2-3-1 type formation then he could play as one of the two and I think he would probably be more at home playing here, although, even in this formation he would be behind Dier, Lo Celso and Sissoko in my pecking order. Unfortunately I don't think he has enough creativity about him to play as one of the three in front (N'Dombele, Eriksen, Ali, Son, Moura, Lamela) so he should just be a squad player for us.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I dont think playing the base of the diamond suits him at all, and as popular an opinion as I know it will be - I think he is only playing it to accommodate Sissoko.

He played a great number of decent passes last night, got out of trouble, dropped into the box and intercepted and cleared the ball. He wasnt all bad at all, but people seem intent on zeroing in on a few key errors.

Personally Id like to see Sissoko dropped, and Winks given his role, with someone like Dier at the base (as you suggest) if we persist with the diamond..

I think its telling the difference NDombele is already making with his passing ability, he and Winks playing that role, as opposed to he and Sissoko, I think could be a winner.

I also think he can work well in the 2 if we go 4231, I think it would suit him well.

This last year has been less than ideal for him on a personal level, but I think it could be one of those things that in time really serves his career well. A bit like King playing a year in midfield, it made him a much better defender.

 

[glorygloryeze]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline i think that option would be fair to go for. However, i worry that Dier is broken and would make us even worse...can anyone remember the last game Dier played when he was at the level of 2015-April 2018 Dier?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

When has he been fit?

I think he lost form around the time he didnt go to Utd, probably unsettled, but since then he just hasnt been 100% at any point has he?

 

[scaramanga]

N'Dombele would be as bad as Winks playing as a sitting DM. He doesn't have the defensive nous to play there. He also looks weak in the tackle. Dier should play there IMO and if not him then Sissoko (although if we persist with the diamond then Sissoko probably needs to play on either the left or right side of it until Lo Celso is back).

In which case he's a very lucky defender and I'm happy with that:

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It is worth pointing out - I think its clear NDombele is far from 100% in shape, and is clearly still trying to acclimate. Not easy while the team is so out of sorts.

Not really fair to judge him right now.

Ive seen enough to think he could well be an upgrade on Dembele in time, in pretty well all aspects.

 

[StephenH]

I like Harry. But I now doubt he is at the level we should be recruiting.
Harry W. cant do a Sissoko, due to his lack of physicality and he cannot do a 'Modric' for well obvious reasons.
We do suffer from 'one of our own' syndrome and we need to guard against this because the central reason Winks has prospered in the team is he's cheap. We tend to give a greater licence to our homegrown players for a very understandable reason. Playing as we are more often with the 'big boys' you need the N'Debele's of this world.
We need new fullbacks ASAP. I'm a big fan of Rose but once again heart and hard work are NOW not enough.

Lets cut to the chase. Kane, N'Debele, Dele and Son are the only ones that may make it into one of the top team like Bayern.
I cannot include Eriksen now.

We got found out last night.

 

[SteveAWOL]

In which case he's a very lucky defender and I'm happy with that:

As much as I like StatsBomb radars there’s still the question of how long it takes for N’dombele to adjust from playing in Farmer’s League to EPL... plus even his defensive stats for that league are inferior to old Mousa Dembele.




whilst Winks defensive contribution remains questionable...

 

[SylDave]

I dont think playing the base of the diamond suits him at all, and as popular an opinion as I know it will be - I think he is only playing it to accommodate Sissoko.

He played a great number of decent passes last night, got out of trouble, dropped into the box and intercepted and cleared the ball. He wasnt all bad at all, but people seem intent on zeroing in on a few key errors.

Personally Id like to see Sissoko dropped, and Winks given his role, with someone like Dier at the base (as you suggest) if we persist with the diamond..

I think its telling the difference NDombele is already making with his passing ability, he and Winks playing that role, as opposed to he and Sissoko, I think could be a winner.

I also think he can work well in the 2 if we go 4231, I think it would suit him well.

This last year has been less than ideal for him on a personal level, but I think it could be one of those things that in time really serves his career well. A bit like King playing a year in midfield, it made him a much better defender.

It’s nothing to do with Sissoko why he is playing at the base, I don’t want Sissoko in the team but you can’t spacegoat him for this.

We started playing this formation against Fulham at Wembley second game of last season, then played it in the 3-0 at Old Trafford and more frequently than is thought in the first half of last season, Dier, Wanyama(on the occasions he was known to be alive) and Skipp all played the right sided “box to box role” Sissoko is now being asked to play, Dembele and Winks were alternating at the base and Alli/Eriksen the tip and right side, Sissoko didn’t get anywhere near the team until Mid to late November until injuries meant he had to play by default.