Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Grays_1890]

You sure about that? Why make a change if we want no change? The rest I agree with.

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You are getting the whole point of my post way wrong.

Ultimately the UK has done more for ethnic diversity in the last GHod knows how many years than 90% of the world as have the people that have moved here and decided to call the UK home.

The point is that don't change over night and those facts don't get erased over night because people say it does.

I used Brexit as an example of peoples perceptions of the UK changing on emotion rather than facts. I wasn't debating Brexit.

 

[Grays_1890]

For the benefit of SpurMeUp I will change my closing statement

Regardless of Brexit....

If the UK was to limit the level of immigration, migration and asylum to the UK it does not all of a sudden make the UK any less culturally or ethnically diverse and you can't just use the numbers game as an excuse to attack a country who are one of the top in the world in term of diversity.

The difficulty is that part is hard for people to swallow who think we are all racists when many of us embrace multiculturalism every day of our lives.

 

[Parklaner81]

You sure about that? Why make a change if we want no change? The rest I agree with.

Within the EU, the UK has always had 400% control of the more noticeable/dramatic immigration - referring to Africa churches, Reggae, particularly different foods etc

Listen I’m not having a go at you. I’m admiring your sentiments, agreeing with them and feeling a tad sad that people like you Danish, Parklane etc who have admirable ethics don’t see that the EU don’t compromise us. We actually compromise ourselves and 99%of things that need fixing are probably UK based and controlled and not effected by the EU.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but in regard to the bolded bit you might want to think about turning some of your fire on the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg et al. who comprehensively failed to address such things when they had the chance. It's not as if these things were unknowns. It's taken the brexit vote to get to this point, but that isn't the fault of people who voted for it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't entirely disagree with you, but in regard to the bolded bit you might want to think about turning some of your fire on the likes of Blair, Brown, Cameron, Clegg et al. who comprehensively failed to address such things when they had the chance. It's not as if these things were unknowns. It's taken the brexit vote to get to this point, but that isn't the fault of people who voted for it.

Do you think we, as a nation, are blaming the EU for these British peoples actions? For example, the UK not doing what Germany and France did, and opting out of free movement for the new EU nations for the first 5 years or so? Which must have had the effect of funneling more people into the UK.

If we, the UK, impose lasting damage on our economy, on our world standing, on our currency, all becuase of things we already controlled in the UK, I wonder how this episode will be viewed in history.

 

[Parklaner81]

Do you think we, as a nation, are blaming the EU for these British peoples actions? For example, the UK not doing what Germany and France did, and opting out of free movement for the new EU nations for the first 5 years or so? Which must have had the effect of funneling more people into the UK.

If we, the UK, impose lasting damage on our economy, on our world standing, on our currency, all becuase of things we already controlled in the UK, I wonder how this episode will be viewed in history.

Let me flip this on it's head and ask you a question: do you believe that the lessons of the Brexit vote have truly been learnt?

You keep insisting, if you'll allow me to paraphrase, that 'it needn't come to this, we can sort everything out and still remain in the EU, we know all the issues and grievances now and we'll fix them!'.

If this were actually credible, I'd expect to see Labour and Liberal Democrat manifestos at the next general election laying out plans to, for example, reduce immigration numbers. You know, after they've campaigned to remain, and overturned the 2016 referendum result.

How likely do you think it is such pledges will be made?

 

[Gutter Boy]

You and @Grays_1890 have the right sentiments. The right aims, but the wrong way of getting there. A forward looking nation doesn't close off from a the worlds largest and most prosperous free market. Or put impediments between working with other nations who are the most similar to it, on things like climate change, and global threats. I get that all your eggs are in the anti-EU basket. I may as well be trying to convince you to support arsenal. Curse the thought!!! But the forward looking UK thing - that is the opposit of Brexit.

Free markets and nationalisation are diametrically opposed. Free trade is the thing that oppresses humanity

 

[Gutter Boy]

The Tories have 1 or 2 good ideas. Corbyn has in my view 3 or 4 good ideas. Funny thing if it was not for my absolute hatred of the EU I would fit very naturally into the liberals.

The Parkinson's I hope from what I am told i can reset to the level of first diagnosis with this treatment. A lot of conditions are in future going to be treated over the long term. Much like how HIV is now just a chronic condition.

MND is a cnut and people with it should be allowed to be guinea pigs if they want. The law around that sucks and treats us like we are mentally incapacitated rather then desperate.

I knew someone who worked in Parkinson's research. They seemed to reckon there was some interesting stuff happening with copper (as in experimental treatments using the metal)

 

[Gutter Boy]

Do you think we, as a nation, are blaming the EU for these British peoples actions? For example, the UK not doing what Germany and France did, and opting out of free movement for the new EU nations for the first 5 years or so? Which must have had the effect of funneling more people into the UK.

If we, the UK, impose lasting damage on our economy, on our world standing, on our currency, all becuase of things we already controlled in the UK, I wonder how this episode will be viewed in history.

We could have spent 400 year unsuccessfully trying to reform the Catholic Church. But the leading the reformation instead worked out for the best

 

[SpurMeUp]

Let me flip this on it's head and ask you a question: do you believe that the lessons of the Brexit vote have truly been learnt?

You keep insisting, if you'll allow me to paraphrase, that 'it needn't come to this, we can sort everything out and still remain in the EU, we know all the issues and grievances now and we'll fix them!'.

If this were actually credible, I'd expect to see Labour and Liberal Democrat manifestos at the next general election laying out plans to, for example, reduce immigration numbers. You know, after they've campaigned to remain, and overturned the 2016 referendum result.

How likely do you think it is such pledges will be made?

Well there are some assumptions there. In generally it looks like the immigration issue has been left a little. Brexit party don't talk about it. Farrage is quite open he used it to get the leave vote over the line. It is an interesting point you make. The vote was a wake up call, a vote to say lets shake things up. Lets deal with immigration. Thing is the vote means different things to different people. To Farrage, Hannon, Boris, Scara immigration was not the issue for them. They all want the cheap labour it brings. And the UK does need it. Brits don't want to be cleaning up old people, or doing the most menial jobs on building sites, whereas people from afar are more happy to.

But I agree with you on the broad idea. A party who can campaign on delivering the themes of Brexit, while staying in the EU, could do well. A party that promises to make some inventive real changes. 'We won't cost jobs but we'll give you change that you voted for'. Becuase no one wants to make the UK worse off, or individuals worse off...Brexit voters were voting for a shake up? If you could harness that, maybe that is a way forward out of this mess.

 

[Parklaner81]

Well there are some assumptions there. In generally it looks like the immigration issue has been left a little. Brexit party don't talk about it. Farrage is quite open he used it to get the leave vote over the line. It is an interesting point you make. The vote was a wake up call, a vote to say lets shake things up. Lets deal with immigration. Thing is the vote means different things to different people. To Farrage, Hannon, Boris, Scara immigration was not the issue for them. They all want the cheap labour it brings. And the UK does need it. Brits don't want to be cleaning up old people, or doing the most menial jobs on building sites, whereas people from afar are more happy to.

But I agree with you on the broad idea. A party who can campaign on delivering the themes of Brexit, while staying in the EU, could do well. A party that promises to make some inventive real changes. 'We won't cost jobs but we'll give you change that you voted for'. Becuase no one wants to make the UK worse off, or individuals worse off...Brexit voters problem were voting for a shake up. If you could harness that, maybe that is a way forward out of this mess.

With all due respect, that sounds a little bit like backtracking, moving the goalposts...which was pretty much my point.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the real tragedy of Brexit - whether it happens or not - will be if the main issues that drove it continue to be ignored. And sadly, that is the course I fear we may be on.

 

[P.D.]

With all due respect, that sounds a little bit like backtracking, moving the goalposts...which was pretty much my point.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the real tragedy of Brexit - whether it happens or not - will be if the main issues that drove it continue to be ignored. And sadly, that is the course I fear we may be on.

I don't believe the EU is interested in reforming, they either genuinely believe everything is fine or they're ignorant and hoping the problems go away. Even if we wanted to reform it then the EU have already said the four freedoms can't be seperated so you can't curtail freedom of movement.

The EU have some big decisions to make, how can being green and having freedom of movement realistically work together other than a few token policies. Offshoring immigration policy to North African countries to police is another policy that plainly isn't working and is just delaying the issue.

 

[Parklaner81]

I don't believe the EU is interested in reforming, they either genuinely believe everything is fine or they're ignorant and hoping the problems go away. Even if we wanted to reform it then the EU have already said the four freedoms can't be seperated so you can't curtail freedom of movement.

The EU have some big decisions to make, how can being green and having freedom of movement realistically work together other than a few token policies. Offshoring immigration policy to North African countries to police is another policy that plainly isn't working and is just delaying the issue.

In general I agree with you, and my gut feeling suspicion is that this extends to a very large portion of the activist remain movement in the UK too.

@SpurMeUp makes a lot of sense with his 'remain and reform' argument - the problem is that, in reality, it simply wouldn't happen.

 

[scaramanga]

Free markets and nationalisation are diametrically opposed. Free trade is the thing that oppresses humanity

Quite the opposite, my friend. The clue's in the name

 

[Grays_1890]

@SpurMeUp makes a lot of sense with his 'remain and reform' argument

Be more a case of "Remain"

 

[scaramanga]

Thanks mate, I just get on abit of a horse when it comes to people attacked the UK for its lack of awareness on immigration or asylum or ethnic diversity. London is probably one of if not the most ethnically diverse populations in the world. One third of London is foreign born, that is one third of over 8m people in an area as tiny as London is HUGE. Even though English is the official language the city is brimming with diversity on every corner. 200 languages spoken across the capital and a capital that encourages people to share their culture and their love for their home. People can hit the UK on the head with a hammer all they like but the facts are there, I was living in an area where West Indian families were the life blood of the party, where I played cricket with some of the best lads from the best families who shared their culture and food and colours, who got us into Reggae which then spawned Ska and was a HUGE melting pot for social integration.

Putting a limit on immigration when we are one of the most over populated countries and cities in the western world based on our size does not re-write history the way people are saying it does.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/09/13/eu-pale-stale-illiberal/

Presenting her EU Commission nominees to reporters, president-elect Ursula von der Leyen said: “This is the team, as diverse as Europe, as strong as Europe.” Every single one of them was white.

Didier Reynders, tipped for justice commissioner, has been known to black up as part of the Noirauds festival in Brussels. When asked about it in 2015, he explained that the tradition dated back to 1876 and he couldn’t understand the fuss. Ms von der Leyen was almost as tone deaf when she decided to create a portfolio named “Protecting our European Way of Life”. Was the specific European quality she was looking for “dog-whistle racism?”

The EU has often failed to pin down European identity. It doesn’t include Christianity: that was excluded from the Lisbon Treaty. It doesn’t have much to do with democracy: Ms von der Leyen didn’t even campaign publicly for her position; she was nominated by the European Council. Let’s not pretend the EU is about the free market either.

Within the community there is a single, if highly regulated, market but it still sits behind a tariff wall. Given that Brussels is currently threatening Britain with a trade war if we don’t get a withdrawal agreement, it seems the European brotherhood extends only to those who are part of the club. Nations that dare to look to the wider world for trade and security are traitors.

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––

Such paranoia is entirely to be expected of a project in decline. Guy Verhofstadt opined that the future would be dominated by “empires” – China, India, America – and thus the only way for Europe to survive was by clubbing together, which is not a million miles from the kind of apocalyptic “death of the West” nonsense published at the beginning of the 20th century. It’s an outlook completely lacking in innovation, curiosity and generosity. It also begs the question: what do so many British Remainers see in the EU?

They are the first people to claim that Brexit is taking Britain back to the Fifties, and yet the UK is genuinely, comfortably diverse, as the Conservative cabinet shows. If Donald Trump had appointed a cabinet member for preserving the American way of life, many Remainers would howl that it was proof positive of his racism – so where is the outrage at Ms von der Leyen’s Commission? The EU project is draped in hypocrisy. It poses as liberal; in reality, it is introspective and stuck in a different century.

 

[Parklaner81]

Be more a case of "Remain"

Yep. That's precisely why it's a non-starter.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't believe the EU is interested in reforming, they either genuinely believe everything is fine or they're ignorant and hoping the problems go away. Even if we wanted to reform it then the EU have already said the four freedoms can't be seperated so you can't curtail freedom of movement.

The EU have some big decisions to make, how can being green and having freedom of movement realistically work together other than a few token policies. Offshoring immigration policy to North African countries to police is another policy that plainly isn't working and is just delaying the issue.

The EU has no intent on reform, quite the opposite IMO. They are doubling down on the project, do not forget the mantra of "ever closer union", nor the clear bully boy tactics they employ. Youre either on board with it, or tough brick, its happening anyway.

The EU has often failed to pin down European identity.

Thats because there is no such thing. Northern Europeans couldnt be more different to Southern, just as East and Western Europeans are entirely different.

Europe is a wonderfully varied place, both culturally as well as physically, geographically and ethnically.

Which is why the EUs insistence on one size fits all policy and apparent aim of homogenizing the entire continent just cannot work.

As a trading block its an entirely sensible endeavour. As a single political union, an over arching legislature managing states therein, I just dont see the point.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Quite the opposite, my friend. The clue's in the name

Free for the big corporates to exploit resources (natural and human).

Fair trade is much more preferable - a focus on localism, but then exchanging what you have too much of for what you don't have enough of for a fair price.

 

[Gutter Boy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/09/13/eu-pale-stale-illiberal/

Presenting her EU Commission nominees to reporters, president-elect Ursula von der Leyen said: “This is the team, as diverse as Europe, as strong as Europe.” Every single one of them was white.

Didier Reynders, tipped for justice commissioner, has been known to black up as part of the Noirauds festival in Brussels. When asked about it in 2015, he explained that the tradition dated back to 1876 and he couldn’t understand the fuss. Ms von der Leyen was almost as tone deaf when she decided to create a portfolio named “Protecting our European Way of Life”. Was the specific European quality she was looking for “dog-whistle racism?”

The EU has often failed to pin down European identity. It doesn’t include Christianity: that was excluded from the Lisbon Treaty. It doesn’t have much to do with democracy: Ms von der Leyen didn’t even campaign publicly for her position; she was nominated by the European Council. Let’s not pretend the EU is about the free market either.

Within the community there is a single, if highly regulated, market but it still sits behind a tariff wall. Given that Brussels is currently threatening Britain with a trade war if we don’t get a withdrawal agreement, it seems the European brotherhood extends only to those who are part of the club. Nations that dare to look to the wider world for trade and security are traitors.

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––

Such paranoia is entirely to be expected of a project in decline. Guy Verhofstadt opined that the future would be dominated by “empires” – China, India, America – and thus the only way for Europe to survive was by clubbing together, which is not a million miles from the kind of apocalyptic “death of the West” nonsense published at the beginning of the 20th century. It’s an outlook completely lacking in innovation, curiosity and generosity. It also begs the question: what do so many British Remainers see in the EU?

They are the first people to claim that Brexit is taking Britain back to the Fifties, and yet the UK is genuinely, comfortably diverse, as the Conservative cabinet shows. If Donald Trump had appointed a cabinet member for preserving the American way of life, many Remainers would howl that it was proof positive of his racism – so where is the outrage at Ms von der Leyen’s Commission? The EU project is draped in hypocrisy. It poses as liberal; in reality, it is introspective and stuck in a different century.

Magid Magid was escorted from the European Parliament because security couldn't believe you could have a young black MEP

While we have non-white politicians in 2 of the 3 major offices of state below PM, and no one has even noticed/cared.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Magid Magid was escorted from the European Parliament because security couldn't believe you could have a young black MEP

While we have non-white politicians in 2 of the 3 major offices of state below PM, and no one has even noticed/cared.

In defence of them, Magid Magid hardly looks or acts like a politician at all, and its would be an easy mistake to make.

While I dont know the ins and outs of that incident, I find "Couldnt believe there would be a young black MEP" to be a bit extreme and most likely untrue.