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Politics, politics, politics

That's why they'll never get my vote. Just as much hatred, fear and paranoia. I vote for hope


The Right want to destroy all the things that sustain my standard of living and that of other working class people. They want to dismantle all the things that led to a post war consensus and made us great, you bet I want them (Labour) to be angry and aggressive about it. What you don't think the Tories don't fight tooth and nail? There is no place for peace, holding hands and Kumbia.
 
Labour is the establishment too. You should see the decadence and contempt in places they govern. Look at the current deforestation of Sheffield/PPI/dawn raids and violent removal of protesting pensioners situation.

Well we have very different ideas of what the establishment is, to me they are from Belgravia etc. That is another Green line, Labour are an old party, a party of the past, a party of the establishment etc. An appeal to ignorant hipster types. Nobody is buying it mate, check the Green vote.
 
The libertarian left just won the Italian elections

Mate, no one 'wins' in Italy, just one party gets more votes than the next biggest party. Their vote is atomised. Again definitions, what libertarian left? Just fake left to me. Socially permissive, but neo liberal in economics.
 
Scara, you have been saying that for almost twelve months now. Says something about the paucity of talent and electoral appeal in the Tory party.
That's across the board in the UK political scene right now.

There's not a single person high up in any of the parties that I'd trust to run the country. Davidson shows the potential that in a couple of years she could do it - not sure how the locals would take to her being parachuted into a safe seat South of the border though.
 
The Greens are for people that want it to be legal for their gay mates to get married, but to continue with the exploitative neo liberal economic agenda. There is nothing authentically 'left' about them. That's why I refer to their shills as being useful idiots, because they campaign against legitimate left parties as vigorously as the Tories do, share their memes and split the Labour vote in key marginals. The Tories love them.
 
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The Right want to destroy all the things that sustain my standard of living and that of other working class people.
Of course they don't. The very suggestion devalues anything else you might post on the subject and places you in the same category as 911 truthers and anti-vaxers.

They want to dismantle all the things that led to a post war consensus
It's pretty much gone already. What is left drags us down.

and made us great,
Opinion with little factual basis[/QUOTE]
 
Of course they don't. The very suggestion devalues anything else you might post on the subject and places you in the same category as 911 truthers and anti-vaxers.


It's pretty much gone already. What is left drags us down.


Opinion with little factual basis
[/QUOTE]

Hah, Scara critiquing my argument on the basis of no supportive evidence err pot, calling the kettle black methinks. I'll give you just a couple of examples, they have introduced work place laws that are killing the standard of living of ordinary workers things like zero hour contracts, they have continued to erode state health and education by a gradual de funding that they hope voters will not notice. They have allowed Britain to leave the EU. How's that for starters?
 
The Right want to destroy all the things that sustain my standard of living and that of other working class people. They want to dismantle all the things that led to a post war consensus and made us great, you bet I want them (Labour) to be angry and aggressive about it. What you don't think the Tories don't fight tooth and nail? There is no place for peace, holding hands and Kumbia.

The fight is already lost when you compromise your values. You've got to win hearts and minds, not frighten and bully them into submission.
 
The fight is already lost when you compromise your values. You've got to win hearts and minds, not frighten and bully them into submission.

The only people frightened by a bit of passion and commitment are those who are supporters of the status quo anyway. I don't subscribe to the Blairite technocratic solution thank you very much.
 
Mate, no one 'wins' in Italy, just one party gets more votes than the next biggest party. Their vote is atomised. Again definitions, what libertarian left? Just fake left to me. Socially permissive, but neo liberal in economics.

Libertarian left is localism, a minimal role for the state. It's very different from socialism/the authoritarian left like Labour

Five Star are the polar opposite of neo-liberal. Their economics is degrowth - they want universal basic income, less consumption and a retreat from globalisation
 
Libertarian left is localism, a minimal role for the state. It's very different from socialism/the authoritarian left like Labour

Five Star are the polar opposite of neo-liberal. Their economics is degrowth - they want universal basic income, less consumption and a retreat from globalisation

Yep the fairies at the bottom of the garden.
 
The Greens are for people that want it to be legal for their gay mates to get married, but to continue with the exploitative neo liberal economic agenda. There is nothing authentically 'left' about them. That's why I refer to their shills as being useful idiots, because they campaign against legitimate left parties as vigorously as the Tories do, share their memes and split the Labour vote in key marginals. The Tories love them.

Universal basic income and a 28 hour working week were in their last manifesto. They are the only ones offering an alternative to Reaganomics/who grasp how a post-capitalist world will function
 
It's the mid twenty-first century, how the world copes with automisation, rather than harking back to a romanticised 1945-77

Oh so the NHS is 'romanticised'? What planet are you living on mate? Oh I know, one where a main stream democratic socialist party is described as being "authoritairian." Like I said running all the right wing memes and helping the Tories.
 
Well we have very different ideas of what the establishment is, to me they are from Belgravia etc. That is another Green line, Labour are an old party, a party of the past, a party of the establishment etc. An appeal to ignorant hipster types. Nobody is buying it mate, check the Green vote.

Try meeting Sheffield City Council. They are just as establishment and just as nasty as the Tory central government.
 
Oh so the NHS is 'romanticised'? What planet are you living on mate? Oh I know, one where a main stream democratic socialist party is described as being "authoritairian." Like I said running all the right wing memes and helping the Tories.

Labour are unashamedly statist - they want centralised control over social and economic affairs.

There may be some benevolence in their intentions, but they are authoritarian rather than liberal

And the NHS is unbelievably romanticised. It's crap and has been for decades. Completely unfit for purpose. They need to serve their local communities, not the bureaucratic system that has been created
 
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Hah, Scara critiquing my argument on the basis of no supportive evidence err pot, calling the kettle black methinks. I'll give you just a couple of examples, they have introduced work place laws that are killing the standard of living of ordinary workers things like zero hour contracts,
And by doing so have created the lowest level of unemployment I can remember. Removing barriers to employment increases employment and reduces the marginal benefit of industrialising jobs.

they have continued to erode state health and education by a gradual de funding that they hope voters will not notice.
They've been very clear about their spending plans and the need to rein in the profligacy of their predecessors. By keeping those costs low they have kept borrowing at a far lower rate than it would have been, ensuring that our economy stays away from the (still very possible) collapse that could occur.

That, in turn, keeps taxes low and increases employment and investment, allowing the market to improve.

Just how bad are education and health in your opinion? More people than ever are in university (the benefits of that are another debate) and life expectancy is higher than it has ever been.

They have allowed Britain to leave the EU. How's that for starters?
They allowed a referendum, the first party to stick to a manifesto pledge it didn't want to in about a generation.
 
And by doing so have created the lowest level of unemployment I can remember. Removing barriers to employment increases employment and reduces the marginal benefit of industrialising jobs.


They've been very clear about their spending plans and the need to rein in the profligacy of their predecessors. By keeping those costs low they have kept borrowing at a far lower rate than it would have been, ensuring that our economy stays away from the (still very possible) collapse that could occur.

That, in turn, keeps taxes low and increases employment and investment, allowing the market to improve.

Just how bad are education and health in your opinion? More people than ever are in university (the benefits of that are another debate) and life expectancy is higher than it has ever been.


They allowed a referendum, the first party to stick to a manifesto pledge it didn't want to in about a generation.

A low unemployment rate is a very good thing. But it is currently also coupled with low-paid, insecure work in a country with high housing costs even at the lowest end of the scale. In-work poverty is a real thing, which is why foodbank use has exploded since 2010. Most of the spend on benefits is paid to people who work and changes to those benefits (Universal Credit) has made life for many people even harder, despite being employed and contributing to the rosy employment figures. Add the high cost of housing to benefit reforms like Universal Credit and you get a massive increase in homelessness. With less social housing and less services for these people to access due to local authority cuts.

The housing crisis is real and getting worse. Successive governments have failed in this area and the Tories continue to do so, selling off more social housing and not replacing it. If there was just one reason for me to vote for Corbyn's Labour, it's that they would at least try to build a lot more social housing, which I think is a key part of solving the high housing costs this country faces.

Reining in spending and keeping taxes low (lowering them unnecessarily imo, when they were already competitive relative to the rest of the G20) has meant cutting services, such as social care for the elderly, or the number of police officers, just as a couple of examples. That then feeds in to the NHS struggling to cope with all the extra elderly people that end up in hospital, or the rate of violent crime increasing. It leads to schools getting lower and lower budgets per pupil, with the schools then having to ask parents for extra top-ups to buy basic supplies. All the while, many of those same parents have seen their pay fall in real terms, lagging behind the costs of their housing and utility bills. Then there are all of the other, smaller social services that get cut by local authorities who no longer get the required funding from central government, hurting poorer people who previously made use of them. It is essentially paying for the deficit on the backs of those who can least afford it.

We are living in a massively unequal country (I know you don't have much truck with inequality). But as time goes on, more people seem to be moving into the "struggling" category from the "I'm alright" category. I'm with you in that I don't think there is a great deal of good leadership on offer. But for the Tories, I can't even see any policies on offer to solve anything. With the current Labour Party, for the first time since I've been old enough to vote, I think there are at least some policies that I can get behind that can improve things for the average person in this country.
 
And by doing so have created the lowest level of unemployment I can remember. Removing barriers to employment increases employment and reduces the marginal benefit of industrialising jobs.


They've been very clear about their spending plans and the need to rein in the profligacy of their predecessors. By keeping those costs low they have kept borrowing at a far lower rate than it would have been, ensuring that our economy stays away from the (still very possible) collapse that could occur.

That, in turn, keeps taxes low and increases employment and investment, allowing the market to improve.

Just how bad are education and health in your opinion? More people than ever are in university (the benefits of that are another debate) and life expectancy is higher than it has ever been.


They allowed a referendum, the first party to stick to a manifesto pledge it didn't want to in about a generation.

What good is increasing employment when the wages are not affording workers a decent standard of living?
 
Labour are unashamedly statist - they want centralised control over social and economic affairs.

There may be some benevolence in their intentions, but they are authoritarian rather than liberal

And the NHS is unbelievably romanticised. It's crap and has been for decades. Completely unfit for purpose. They need to serve their local communities, not the bureaucratic system that has been created

Like I said, it has been defunded by successive Tory governments, but you shout the Tory meme from the roof tops implying it is in some way out dated. Mate the Tories love you and other like minded allies.
 
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