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Ross Barkley

Pirate55 said:
Aha - the old context argument I see. That might just be the most profound thing said on here. Don't let the "stats are everything" people hear you though. That is heresy.
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well in my defense that is in part what i was trying to highlight - data on its own (ie facts) only tells half the story and from there on in it becomes subjective - the facts/stats/data are, using your earlier example, that in the 9 games Lamela played at the beginning of last season he scored twice and the team as a whole scored 8 or 9 goals - you then said those numbers say that this meant he wasn't the creative player that others were saying he was, the 'facts' don't actually show that, that's just your subjective interpretation of those numbers. I later showed the stats which compared Barkley and Lamelas creative output and the minutes/games which they both played without drawing any conclusion, ie just the cold hard numbers/data/facts (which you had earlier requested?) and in turn it was rightly pointed out that the numbers by themselves don't prove much (other than that Lamela had a higher creative output for us than Barkley had for Everton)
 
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scaramanga said:
That's not how it works, because:



I see why you don't value statistics, it's because (despite my and others on this forum's best attempts) you still don't have even a passing understanding of them.

Single nodes are not data, predefined measurements are not subjective.
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And you seem to bow down before the alter of stats as if they are the only thing that matters. As GB says context is everything. You don't seem to be able (or willing )to take on board that while definitions might be objective, the people that compile the data have to make subjective judgements to determine what to include. Will two compilers judgement be the same in all cases - of course not. Consequently, statistics that are compiled using non-factual raw data must always be treated with caution. That is all.
 
Pirate55 said:
And you seem to bow down before the alter of stats as if they are the only thing that matters. As GB says context is everything. You don't seem to be able (or willing )to take on board that while definitions might be objective, the people that compile the data have to make subjective judgements to determine what to include. Will two compilers judgement be the same in all cases - of course not. Consequently, statistics that are compiled using non-factual raw data must always be treated with caution. That is all.
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Over the course of large numbers of nodes then variations will trend to the norm.

Try this:

It will only take 15 minutes of your life and you will be far better for it. It may even stop you making a fool of yourself sometimes.
 
harr1984 said:
Front line doesnt just include the lone striker, chances arent just created for a single player.....
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You're right, but he would have been the main focus of Everton's attack. If Barkley was aiming a significant number of his attempted assists at another Everton player then I'd say his judgement isn't reliable.
 
Dr Rosenrosen said:
"Erik can't be that good we haven't hardly missed him at all."

Regardless of feelings as to Lamela's quality, your logic is faulty. Judging a squad by the absence of a player speaks less to the quality of that player than to the strength of depth of the squad.

Trippier filled in admirably for Walker at the end of last season. Same with Davies for Rose. But it's not fair to say that "Walker and Rose can't be that good, we hardly missed them at all."

Similarly, Spurs finished 5th in the PL in Bale's last season - since then, 6th, 5th, 3rd and 2nd. Would you say that Bale can't be that good, as our results in the table have largely stayed the same or even improved since he's gone?

In any case, this ain't the Lamela thread but I agree that he needs to get fit again to see how he would slot into the current squad.
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I was being slightly disingenuous.
Most of the players you mentioned would be missed if out for any length of time.
 
scaramanga said:
Over the course of large numbers of nodes then variations will trend to the norm.

Try this:

It will only take 15 minutes of your life and you will be far better for it. It may even stop you making a fool of yourself sometimes.
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Who is this Norm you speak of? Wasn't he the bar propper-upper in Cheers?

You do yourself no credit in assuming others know less than you.
 
scaramanga said:
Over the course of large numbers of nodes then variations will trend to the norm.

Try this:

It will only take 15 minutes of your life and you will be far better for it. It may even stop you making a fool of yourself sometimes.
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Well that's about 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back. The only take away was Mark Twains quote. It certainly didn't help progress this discussion. It did however re-inforce my point about the appropriate collection of data.
 
Pirate55 said:
Well that's about 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back. The only take away was Mark Twains quote. It certainly didn't help progress this discussion. It did however re-inforce my point about the appropriate collection of data.
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I can work with those unable to learn, the unwilling are beyond help.
 
Pirate55 said:
Really like that Belichik quote. Will have to remember it. Are you reading that Scara, Billy and other stat hounds?
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He might have said it, but he doesn't practice it, he's a master at hiring undervalued talent and spotting the trends in his players performances to move them on before they fall away.
 
galeforce said:
He might have said it, but he doesn't practice it, he's a master at hiring undervalued talent and spotting the trends in his players performances to move them on before they fall away.
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Is that from analysing stats or from watching game film and making a judgement?
 
galeforce said:
He might have said it, but he doesn't practice it, he's a master at hiring undervalued talent and spotting the trends in his players performances to move them on before they fall away.
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Agreed. As a Patriots fan, if that is indeed a real quote, I'm sure that it wasn't about Belichick's regard for statistics generally, but instead about retrospectively analyzing a game - in other words, it's the score that matters, not the game stats. If his team has more points on the board when the final whistle blows, then things like total yards, quarterback rating, turnover ratio, etc. don't matter.

It's all about the scoreboard:

https://twitter.com/x/status/818134644206039040
 
If we bring him in, he will have no pre season.
This is vital to players adapting to our system.
I've no doubt he will struggle and everyone will get on his back.
 
I expect it will go to the wire - seems Barkley wants to come here and now that Koeman has confirmed he will be sold that would suggest to me it leaves Everton with little option and Levy will turn the screw to get the price down
 
Levy will start dealing in the last minutes of the window. He smells he can get a bargain but wont start negotiations until very late because it will alert other clubs. Also Barkley has just had surgery so isn't even able to play until late in August.
 
Pirate55 said:
Let's take a look at the games Lamela started in last year

Everton a drew 1-1 Lamela scored
Palace h won 1-0
Liverpool h drew 1-1
Monaco h lost 1-2
Gillingham h won 5-0 Lamela scored
CSKA Moscow h won 1-0
City h won 2-0
WBA away drew 1-1
Bayer L away drew 0-0
Bournemouth away drew 0-0

So, ignoring the minnows of Gillingham, Lamela started 9 games. We won three, drew 5 and lost one. We scored a total of 8 goals in those 9 games he started. So much for his creativity and game changing skills! It was in this period we effectively lost the title.
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And that was all Lamelas fault??? Don't make yourself stupid. The whole team was massively underperforming at that stage. Lamela is a very good creative player. Period. Getting him back will be a massive upgrade to the squad.
 
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