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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

SylDave said:
I agree with everything you said, but that doesn’t answer the point, if the intention was to transition to 433 why spend a year playing the diamond? And it still goes back to the point of the £100m earmarked for Lo Celso and Dybala would have been better spend on other areas of the squad, a RB, a DM, a new CB knowing full well Alderweireld is off.
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Well tomato/tomato i suppose - 433 isn't only how Liverpool set it up and as previously stated a double pivot in central midfield of Ndombele and Sissoko, anchored by Winks with a three man attack of Kane Son and Lamela/Eriksen is a variant of it.

I've already explained what i make of the Lo Celso transfer tbh but to expand i believe it has been the collapse of our engine room that has been the biggest contributor to our downturn in football these past 18 months or so - gone was our strength in the middle of the pitch, our protection of the back four and the base from which our attacks were built and im very nuch of the opinion that signing 2 players to strengthen this area of the pitch in the summer was the best place to start the rebuild.
 
Finney Is Back said:
As a manager you have to be VERY careful when bombing players out of the squad, there are a lot of friendship groups in the team and doing this can end up alienating the other players.

When a manger wants rid of a player the club have to make that happen. Unfortunately the club had no cards at all with Eriksen and Alderweireld but I think it should’ve been possible to get rid of Aurier, Wanyama and Rose if the club had sweetened the deals.... although GHod knows how threadbare our squad would’ve looked then!
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Even if footballers have a reputation of being somewhat... simple, you would believe that they would understand someone getting "punished" if there was reason behind it. This is not just within a team, but in society in general. Punishments can be hard, or they can be easy. But they absolutely and unequivocally HAS to be fair. As Lloris was used as an example, if he were to get away with a slap on the wrist while another player was punished hard for similar reasons, that's what's causes unrest and alienation.

Few if any of us knows what's going on behind closed doors at the training ground and dressing room, but we have to assume there's some kind of internal justice. Ferguson famously had Keane and Scholes as deputies, not only on the pitch but within the group as well. Arsenal at their peak also had this. I would hope that Poch has the same thing, as this has all kinds of advantages, though it doesn't look like it. Firstly you can hand out "punishments" without the manager being "bad", most of us will often be more open to sanctions from your peers than your boss. They will also have more understanding of the subcultures which forms in any group or organizations. Spurs of old infamously had an extremely strong "clique culture", just ask both Thorstvedt and Iversen. This is much more alienating that binning players who doesn't want to perform. I loved seeing us having a seemingly open and including culture at the start of Poch's reign, and it was very visible on the pitch as well. Still, this has to be nurtured, and if you don't have lieutenants this can easily come apart over time. Captaincy and vice-captaincy should reflect this and not "skill level" or media status. I can maybe understand Lloris being captain for France, but I cannot understand him being captain for us. He has limited opportunity to kick arse on the pitch, communicate with the ref, relay messages and, well, you know, being captain. This is just guesswork, but I don't see him as a cornerstone in the dressing room either.
 
billyiddo said:
Well tomato/tomato i suppose - 433 isn't only how Liverpool set it up and as previously stated a double pivot in central midfield of Ndombele and Sissoko, anchored by Winks with a three man attack of Kane Son and Lamela/Eriksen is a variant of it.

I've already explained what i make of the Lo Celso transfer tbh but to expand i believe it has been the collapse of our engine room that has been the biggest contributor to our downturn in football these past 18 months or so - gone was our strength in the middle of the pitch, our protection of the back four and the base from which our attacks were built and im very nuch of the opinion that signing 2 players to strengthen this area of the pitch in the summer was the best place to start the rebuild.
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The first point I don’t think the diamond is a variation of 433 tbh, the dynamics of the systems are completely different, but lest just agree to disagree on that point, if the argument is we signed players to play a diamond I would be much more inclined to believe it.

With regards midfield I completely agree, and Ndombele will prove to be a fantastic signing I have no doubts about that, but this is where I disagree on Lo Celso, don’t get me wrong I like him as a player, I like him as a signing but again the point I’m trying to make is the money spent on him could have been better spent on a DM, that would have allowed Winks to then take the second pivot with Ndomblele, I’m not a fan of him but Sissoko is there as a backup, Eriksen is still here and could play one of them two roles in a 433 imo that leaves 4 players for 2 spots, then we move on to Dybala that may have been a opportunistic signing but the money must be there so why was that not being considered for a RB or a CB? I still think Vertonghen would sign a new deal if we offered him a fair deal and I don’t think 2 years is too much considering everything.
 
SylDave said:
The first point I don’t think the diamond is a variation of 433 tbh, the dynamics of the systems are completely different, but lest just agree to disagree on that point, if the argument is we signed players to play a diamond I would be much more inclined to believe it.

With regards midfield I completely agree, and Ndombele will prove to be a fantastic signing I have no doubts about that, but this is where I disagree on Lo Celso, don’t get me wrong I like him as a player, I like him as a signing but again the point I’m trying to make is the money spent on him could have been better spent on a DM, that would have allowed Winks to then take the second pivot with Ndomblele, I’m not a fan of him but Sissoko is there as a backup, Eriksen is still here and could play one of them two roles in a 433 imo that leaves 4 players for 2 spots, then we move on to Dybala that may have been a opportunistic signing but the money must be there so why was that not being considered for a RB or a CB? I still think Vertonghen would sign a new deal if we offered him a fair deal and I don’t think 2 years is too much considering everything.
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Kinda just going round in circles at this point mate - going back to a previous post i think our issues are rooted in the players/managers mentality atm and were that not the case then i think our squad/first XI would be playing much better and you wouldn't be questioning us not signing a new RB or new CB over signing a second CM/AM.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
We would need to play with one first!

Pochs solution to date has been a diamond (until today at least)

I really saw positive in him switching to 4231, Dier fit - back to double pivot - well done Poch.

And then the players figured fudge it they may as well go off to their Intl duty early.
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Indeed. If nothing else, I’m hoping that today will show many posters that our problems aren’t as simple to fix as playing 4-2-3-1 instead of the diamond.
 
So much talk about a rebuild. He has shown no actual interest in a rebuild though.
He has continually played players that are past it or on their way out instead of younger options.

Why did he bring on Nkoudou first game of the season.
Why has Wanyama been in the squad 6 times this season?
Why has Skipp been given only 2 minutes of Premier League + Champions League football.
Why didn't he use Walker Peters last season?
Why spend 40 odd million on Sanchez to use him as right back when the other two centre defenders can't run anymore and are both leaving in the summer?
Why give Davies a new contract after he has peaked?

This whole problem has come from Poch having a small squad of favourites. He is never gonna be able to rebuild the squad when he has never been able to rotate the squad properly.
 
Modric THFC said:
So much talk about a rebuild. He has shown no actual interest in a rebuild though.
He has continually played players that are past it or on their way out instead of younger options.

Why did he bring on Nkoudou first game of the season.
Why has Wanyama been in the squad 6 times this season?
Why has Skipp been given only 2 minutes of Premier League + Champions League football.
Why didn't he use Walker Peters last season?
Why spend 40 odd million on Sanchez to use him as right back when the other two centre defenders can't run anymore and are both leaving in the summer?
Why give Davies a new contract after he has peaked?

This whole problem has come from Poch having a small squad of favourites. He is never gonna be able to rebuild the squad when he has never been able to rotate the squad properly.
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Isn’t that what he did when he joined
Hell he made ade and labour vice captains
 
Ultimately Levy isn't gonna accept a season of this.
He will sack him sooner or later.
Do you guys actually think Poch can turn around this group of players this season?
I don't. Levy will sack him inevitably.
He might as well get it out of the way as soon as possible so we can salvage the season.
 
Modric THFC said:
So much talk about a rebuild. He has shown no actual interest in a rebuild though.
He has continually played players that are past it or on their way out instead of younger options.

Why did he bring on Nkoudou first game of the season.
Why has Wanyama been in the squad 6 times this season?
Why has Skipp been given only 2 minutes of Premier League + Champions League football.
Why didn't he use Walker Peters last season?
Why spend 40 odd million on Sanchez to use him as right back when the other two centre defenders can't run anymore and are both leaving in the summer?
Why give Davies a new contract after he has peaked?

This whole problem has come from Poch having a small squad of favourites. He is never gonna be able to rebuild the squad when he has never been able to rotate the squad properly.
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Hard to disagree with any of this. So many weird choices if we are indeed trying to rebuild.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I completely understand there is a social element to it.

Though I question - say Kane is Eriksens bestest buddy - how do you think he feels about him after performances like today?

Above all else, these guys are elite athletes, competitive, and they want to win. Right now, I imagine Kane and Eriksen wouldnt be on great terms...

And theres the catch for me. When Modric made it clear he wanted to leave, he worked so damn hard nobody took issue with it - because Modric helped them win games.

How well do you think that social element stands up when players literally couldnt give a toss?

I also think theres a lot to be said for a manager being in control. These guys are disrupting, they are out - now lets everyone focus...

I think thats valuable, and necessary

It would have been much better if moves away could have been arranged, but I still maintain that Poch has the choice to involve these players, and do which degree.





Aside from Finneys view on everyone being buddies, I actually think Poch is being to loyal to them. Or naive.

Its like he thinks he can trust them still, when all evidence points to the contrary.
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Yeah Eriksen is the weirdest one to me, because his contract’s running out, he’s publicly said he wanted to leave, and he’s playing like brick - there seems no reason to play him.

I can only think it’s loyalty, faith he’ll improve, lack of faith in the alternative players, trying to prove a point to Levy, or worried about the impact on the ‘collective’ by banishing him. The last one seems the only remotely rational one. But I don’t know why he doesn’t just keep him in the squad without playing him for a while, rather than banishing him - would be totally justified, and surely wouldn’t upset anyone.

Maybe he thinks there’s still a chance of him signing a new contract?

fudge knows.
 
elltrev said:
Yeah Eriksen is the weirdest one to me, because his contract’s running out, he’s publicly said he wanted to leave, and he’s playing like brick - there seems no reason to play him.

I can only think it’s loyalty, faith he’ll improve, lack of faith in the alternative players, trying to prove a point to Levy, or worried about the impact on the ‘collective’ by banishing him. The last one seems the only remotely rational one. But I don’t know why he doesn’t just keep him in the squad without playing him for a while, rather than banishing him - would be totally justified, and surely wouldn’t upset anyone.

Maybe he thinks there’s still a chance of him signing a new contract?

fudge knows.
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Wasn't Eriksen missing from the Bayern from fiasco and the Colchester one?
 
elltrev said:
I can only think it’s loyalty, faith he’ll improve, lack of faith in the alternative players, trying to prove a point to Levy, or worried about the impact on the ‘collective’ by banishing him. The last one seems the only remotely rational one. But I don’t know why he doesn’t just keep him in the squad without playing him for a while, rather than banishing him - would be totally justified, and surely wouldn’t upset anyone.

Maybe he thinks there’s still a chance of him signing a new contract?

fudge knows.
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Poch did say we should give Eriksen some love and he might sign a new contract.

What he actually meant was that they want to be together in Madrid in a years time and fcuk spurs.
 
Modric THFC said:
Ultimately Levy isn't gonna accept a season of this.
He will sack him sooner or later.
Do you guys actually think Poch can turn around this group of players this season?
I don't. Levy will sack him inevitably.
He might as well get it out of the way as soon as possible so we can salvage the season.
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If the contracts are what are causing the problem with lack of application, sacking Poch won't change it.

Its very difficult to tell from the outside though whether he (himself) has lost the dressing room, OR if its caused by the contract problems
 
Legohamster said:
Hindsight’s a wonderful thing.

But would have sacking off Rose what ever the cost when he spoke out have changed anything?

He’s been allowed to play since and it does send the wrong message.
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That was my belief at the time. It's a dangerous precedent that a player can criticise the team, and even moreso his team mates, and get away with it.
 
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