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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Not the point I’m trying to make.

You clamp down on rose and the players are scared the actions have Consequences.

Same with Hugo, club captain after drunk driving
Scared?
Eriksen hold the aces so doesn’t care one bit
We don’t know what’s happened with rose behind the scenes but we do know what eriksen has done publicly and on the pitch of late....

Rose never stopped trying and putting a genuine shift in
 
What I don’t get is why Poch has snookered himself in this ridiculous cul de sac by playing all the bastards who can’t be arsed.

When he first arrived, he gave the big names a chance to see who was up for it. Then showed no fear in bombing out Kaboul (the captain), Adebayor, Capoue, even Lennon.... He replaced them with youth players Kane, Townsend, Mason, Bentaleb etc. The club backed him and the fans backed him 400%.

So why are we now stuck with Toby, Jan, Rose, Aurier, Wanyama, Eriksen etc, wombling around either crocked, care-free, or comatose? And the promising young players, KWP, Skipp, CCV etc have all got frozen out and their careers stalled under him.

Wtf has changed in his approach? He knew the answer before and executed on it brilliantly and ruthlessly.

One thing is I think we are all assuming players have ‘downed tools’ rather than there being a massive lack of confidence in the team right now, after repeated sucker punches. The VAR at Leicester, Serge getting sent off, the Bayern game, Lloris off and a goal down inside 3 mins today...it’s a constant barrage of brick and I have some sympathy for the players because they seem to rarely be able to compete on a game on its own merits. It must be draining.

Expectations are also different now, and this is as much about protecting young players by not putting them into this situation and stunting their own development while bombing out players that have been influential and will still have to be at the club. We are assuming these players have stopped trying, but I don’t see that. There was some effort today, but there was a serious lack of quality, confidence, of being ‘in the moment’ and sensing where the ball is gonna fall and being there. We were just wrong both with and without the ball almost every time, but we were running.

I’m trying to play this through in my head, but let’s say Eriksen is dropped, bombed. We’ve basically given up the opportunity to use him for squad depth in the last year of his contract, when we aren’t getting a fee for him. Everyone is assuming he’s downed tools and is causing an issue, but really he is who he always has been. A team playing well he looks great in, a team not playing well he looks the same. Poch is toeing this line between using him enough to be valuable, and bombing him out needlessly. We still may need him if injuries occur. Same with Toby. Same with Rose. Same with Aurier even.

If these players are going to be here, we need to be able to use them. Bombing is a drastic solution which means we definitely won’t be able to, and it assumes these players are trying less rather than seriously lacking confidence. Poch could do it in the first season because his success was only ever going to happen if he could implement his philosophy. Players that had no intention of applying themselves to it could be bombed because we didn’t need them anyway, and their continued presence around the team would stop that philosophy getting implemented.

It’s different now. It may not be optimal, but maybe this season was never going to be. The squad needed a refresh, Poch has done everything he can to inject some differences in to the team - formation, different strategies, less reliance on pressing - but he hasn’t been able to move players out and play his new ones. We should have sympathy for him, because he’s the one that saw this coming before anyone. And he clearly knows the value of bombing players out, so you’d have to think that if he isn’t doing it, it’s for good reason. Ultimately competing in the CL means we need a deeper squad, you can’t bomb players out too soon and give up the depth.

Having said all of this, I expect as we get towards January, we will see changes. Sanchez back in, Eriksen moving to pure back up. Once these players start being able to talk to other clubs, they will he relied upon a lot less I’m sure. It won’t be a pure bombing but I think that will happen. We just need to ride this period out - Poch playing the players this way round is likely as much to protect the ones that will be taking the load later in the season as anything. As I said, with a CL campaign, you need a deep squad.
 
One thing is I think we are all assuming players have ‘downed tools’ rather than there being a massive lack of confidence in the team right now, after repeated sucker punches. The VAR at Leicester, Serge getting sent off, the Bayern game, Lloris off and a goal down inside 3 mins today...it’s a constant barrage of brick and I have some sympathy for the players because they seem to rarely be able to compete on a game on its own merits. It must be draining.

Expectations are also different now, and this is as much about protecting young players by not putting them into this situation and stunting their own development while bombing out players that have been influential and will still have to be at the club. We are assuming these players have stopped trying, but I don’t see that. There was some effort today, but there was a serious lack of quality, confidence, of being ‘in the moment’ and sensing where the ball is gonna fall and being there. We were just wrong both with and without the ball almost every time, but we were running.

I’m trying to play this through in my head, but let’s say Eriksen is dropped, bombed. We’ve basically given up the opportunity to use him for squad depth in the last year of his contract, when we aren’t getting a fee for him. Everyone is assuming he’s downed tools and is causing an issue, but really he is who he always has been. A team playing well he looks great in, a team not playing well he looks the same. Poch is toeing this line between using him enough to be valuable, and bombing him out needlessly. We still may need him if injuries occur. Same with Toby. Same with Rose. Same with Aurier even.

If these players are going to be here, we need to be able to use them. Bombing is a drastic solution which means we definitely won’t be able to, and it assumes these players are trying less rather than seriously lacking confidence. Poch could do it in the first season because his success was only ever going to happen if he could implement his philosophy. Players that had no intention of applying themselves to it could be bombed because we didn’t need them anyway, and their continued presence around the team would stop that philosophy getting implemented.

It’s different now. It may not be optimal, but maybe this season was never going to be. The squad needed a refresh, Poch has done everything he can to inject some differences in to the team - formation, different strategies, less reliance on pressing - but he hasn’t been able to move players out and play his new ones. We should have sympathy for him, because he’s the one that saw this coming before anyone. And he clearly knows the value of bombing players out, so you’d have to think that if he isn’t doing it, it’s for good reason. Ultimately competing in the CL means we need a deeper squad, you can’t bomb players out too soon and give up the depth.

Having said all of this, I expect as we get towards January, we will see changes. Sanchez back in, Eriksen moving to pure back up. Once these players start being able to talk to other clubs, they will he relied upon a lot less I’m sure. It won’t be a pure bombing but I think that will happen. We just need to ride this period out - Poch playing the players this way round is likely as much to protect the ones that will be taking the load later in the season as anything. As I said, with a CL campaign, you need a deep squad.
Mate, they’ve clearly downed tools. Broke the tools in half. Logged off. Resigned. Gone home for the day. Sat in front of the TV watching ‘cash in the attic’...
 
Not totally relevant, but don't know where else to post these thoughts.
Is this not we ofkind expected last season with all the turmoil.
Did we get through that on determination and adrenaline and we are paying for it now?
 
Mate, they’ve clearly downed tools. Broke the tools in half. Logged off. Resigned. Gone home for the day. Sat in front of the TV watching ‘cash in the attic’...

I mean, you quite literally don’t know this for sure. I’m not saying there aren’t distractions, I’m not saying the dynamic is 100% perfect, but the idea that certain players are trying less to the point that they are toxic doesn’t chime for me. It’s a lack of concentration, flow, confidence etc.

To try and give and example - Winks is someone that looks to me like he’s definitely trying. He’s working hard, he’s running, he’s trying to push forward. But against Bayern he passes the ball back to the defence when he had space to turn into and then decides to turn when Bayern had pushed up on him. It’s the wrong decision made, and we concede a goal. That’s not effort, that’s just for whatever reason feeling uncomfortable and not being able to give your best.

The problem is more complex and delicate than just going to the obvious conclusion that the players have stopped trying. There’s a dynamic that needs to shift. Chelsea went on a similar run under Ancelotti and they recovered their form.
 
I mean, you quite literally don’t know this for sure. I’m not saying there aren’t distractions, I’m not saying the dynamic is 400% perfect, but the idea that certain players are trying less to the point that they are toxic doesn’t chime for me. It’s a lack of concentration, flow, confidence etc.

To try and give and example - Winks is someone that looks to me like he’s definitely trying. He’s working hard, he’s running, he’s trying to push forward. But against Bayern he passes the ball back to the defence when he had space to turn into and then decides to turn when Bayern had pushed up on him. It’s the wrong decision made, and we concede a goal. That’s not effort, that’s just for whatever reason feeling uncomfortable and not being able to give your best.

The problem is more complex and delicate than just going to the obvious conclusion that the players have stopped trying. There’s a dynamic that needs to shift. Chelsea went on a similar run under Ancelotti and they recovered their form.
I used the example elsewhere today of having laughed at Leicester’s players doing this sort of thing consistently starting with Raineri. Our lot are now doing exactly the same tricks.

just as a supporter of that club, we don’t want to see what’s blatantly obvious because it’s painful.
 
I used the example elsewhere today of having laughed at Leicester’s players doing this sort of thing consistently starting with Raineri. Our lot are now doing exactly the same tricks.

just as a supporter of that club, we don’t want to see what’s blatantly obvious because it’s painful.

I still think it’s different. Primarily because Leceister players, like when Chelsea’s do it, expect to be at the club and have a stake in altering the direction of where that club is going. They will come together to remove a gaffer that they think has lost the ability to lead them. This coming summer, we could quite easily see a significant core of the experienced players in this squad leave. In fact it will happen. Why are they downing tools exactly? To get Poch removed? To have a new guy for 3/4 of the season before they leave?

It doesn’t make sense. Nor does the fact that we battled to the Southampton win with ten men. It was one we needed to show our togetherness, our unity, the idea that we were still all in this. And those were the qualities we exhibited in that win. Why exactly did the players bother to do it for that match if they’d downed tools?

I don’t think it is painful, I don’t think someone like Poch needs any sympathy glances from someone like me. He’s the one in control, the one with the power, and will outlast these players. But I think as a group we need to recover our collective confidence. Sometimes the only way out is through.
 
Ferguson reinvented his teams. Yes he brought in players, and you always always have to do that, but he also brought in fresh coaching talent. Players will switch off if they are hearing the same message and direction for years on end. It only takes a few players to drop performance levels and what was once a well-oiled machine becomes a misfiring one. I can't see new coaches being added to Poch's team to be frank, so he needs to freshen the playing staff.

I think what we are looking at now is a perfect storm of circumstances - no new faces for a bunch of transfer windows, boredom from an established group that has heard it all before over and over, the disappointment of the CL final loss, and some poor tactical choices by management. I see some players trying hard and some going through the motions now. We need commitment above all else now to get through this. Time to bench those older heads that are dialling it in and go with youth, the new signings and the fully committed players. All in my opinion of course.
 
So we left the diamond formation today and by all accounts went back to the 4-2-3-1...anyone care to comment of the results of "going back to what we know yada, yada"?
 
I used the example elsewhere today of having laughed at Leicester’s players doing this sort of thing consistently starting with Raineri. Our lot are now doing exactly the same tricks.

just as a supporter of that club, we don’t want to see what’s blatantly obvious because it’s painful.

So as Leicester are on now getting back to 'normal' do back the successful manager or the players that have downed tools on him?
 
I used the example elsewhere today of having laughed at Leicester’s players doing this sort of thing consistently starting with Raineri. Our lot are now doing exactly the same tricks.

just as a supporter of that club, we don’t want to see what’s blatantly obvious because it’s painful.

It is obvious who is no longer part of the forward-moving group, those whose flushes are busted.

Eriksen, Alderweireld, Aurier, possibly Jan, sadly Dier (whose regression has been so sad - I wanted him to succeed today but he underscored why he has not been a regular), Wanyama and Davies. They are done. Dele? We shall see. He is an amazing talent who needs some very careful stewardship at a very important time in his life. Rose? Done at the end of the season but still of sufficient fight and spirit.

I think the old guard who can core-up and help the new mkII are Kane, Sonny, Lamela, Winks, Sissoko, Lloris. Possibly Jan (see above).

I think our new signings will all work out top be quality personally.

I think in the immediate youth set-up, we need to start playing Foyth, Skipp, Tanganga and Parrott more often.

The others? We need to see. Lucas is a great asset when he plays through the middle, but otherwise not so much. KWP, not good enough in the crunch for me but still time to prove me wrong.

I think Poch needs to be given the chance to build another side. I would PERSONALLY like him to take on another coach to reinvigorate the training ground, and I wish he'd sign someone like Alves short-term to help steward through the kids/youth and show our experienced players what it is to make the final step. He doesn't do it I know, but I wish he would.

To short-term bounce right now would be the wrong move IMO, unless Poch has decided he has had enough.
 
Lloris
Sissoko tangana Sanchez verts Sessegnon
Diet Lamela
Ndombele Lucas
Kane

I also think it is time to make some clever signings. Ferro and Luis at Benfica. Technical players but young and hungry.

Some interesting choices in there. I honestly don't know what is going to dig us out of this hole, but I think the time for favourites is over.

------------- Gazza------------
KWP-----Foyth-----Sanchez---Sessegnon
--Winks---Lo Celso -NDombele --
---Moura----Son-------Ali

Yeah no Lloris or Kane. Sue me.

Edit-> Bench: Dier, Tanganga, Lamela, Kane, Skipp, Parrott, Sissy, Rose, Lloris
 
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Some interesting choices in there. I honestly don't know what is going to dig us out of this hole, but I think the time for favourites is over.

------------- Gazza------------
KWP-----Foyth-----Sanchez---Sessegnon
--Winks---Lo Celso -NDombele --
---Moura----Son-------Ali

Yeah no Lloris or Kane. Sue me.

Keep forgetting about Lo Celso. Think poch could do worse then try Oakley- Booth for a bit.
 
It is obvious who is no longer part of the forward-moving group, those whose flushes are busted.

Eriksen, Alderweireld, Aurier, possibly Jan, sadly Dier (whose regression has been so sad - I wanted him to succeed today but he underscored why he has not been a regular), Wanyama and Davies. They are done. Dele? We shall see. He is an amazing talent who needs some very careful stewardship at a very important time in his life. Rose? Done at the end of the season but still of sufficient fight and spirit.

I think the old guard who can core-up and help the new mkII are Kane, Sonny, Lamela, Winks, Sissoko, Lloris. Possibly Jan (see above).

I think our new signings will all work out top be quality personally.

I think in the immediate youth set-up, we need to start playing Foyth, Skipp, Tanganga and Parrott more often.

The others? We need to see. Lucas is a great asset when he plays through the middle, but otherwise not so much. KWP, not good enough in the crunch for me but still time to prove me wrong.

I think Poch needs to be given the chance to build another side. I would PERSONALLY like him to take on another coach to reinvigorate the training ground, and I wish he'd sign someone like Alves short-term to help steward through the kids/youth and show our experienced players what it is to make the final step. He doesn't do it I know, but I wish he would.

To short-term bounce right now would be the wrong move IMO, unless Poch has decided he has had enough.

Problem is Steff, those on the "busted flush" list aren't really playing worse than those on trhe mkII list: that in itself tells its own story. NO-ONE is playing remotely at the levels we ahve previously seen, most have regressed and it cannot be simply put down to "not wanting to be here anymore."
 
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