OMT Spurs vs Leicester City

[scaramanga]

What would you call Fernandinho? Currently a CB due to emergency, but usually?

Soooo much more than a DM.

Looks at these xG Buildup and deep progression figures:

 

[scaramanga]

City have Fernandinho and Rodri. They are tough tackling and press resistant. That they are better at progressing the ball than our defensive midfielders does not mean they are not defensive midfielders. It appears that you think DMs are only Claude Makalele types.

It's not just me that thinks that.

Fernandinho and Rodri are much, much more than DMs & that's why they're not DMs.

I think you're confusing a type of player (DM) with a position (deep lying midfielder). The two are entirely different and independent. I'm absolutely not saying we shouldn't have players at the base of midfield, I'm just saying that they need to be talented footballers.

 

[Robspur12]

It's not just me that thinks that.

Fernandinho and Rodri are much, much more than DMs & that's why they're not DMs.

You mean they do more than defend? Of course. But primarily they are ball winners i.e they defend. Rodri for example, completed the most tackles in la Liga last season. He was bought to replace/ back up Fernandinho not de Bruyne.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

Lots of bad luck in this game for me, plus some poor finishing. We played very well all told, riding out a few average performances too. Still early doors and if we play like this consistently, taking advantage of chances created, we will be fine.
Important thing is that we stay strong and stay compact as a club. Everyone will be gunning for us but we have to ignore.

My only concern is that we are unable to close out games when in winning positions. It seems bizarre. We have to learn how again...soon!

Game observations...


Sorry, Maddison is a cheating clam. Lying there looking for a red card when Sissoko won the ball cleanly.

Evans dangles a leg on Rose in the box - nothing.

Kane’s goal was brilliant, this after being fouled yet again when going through (I’m sure he took a dive though, right?!!!!!!).

Sonny has to score when through on 57 mind.

I know VAR goes for and against everyone, but that was NOT offside by any logical conclusion. I am not even sure I understand how Aurier’s strike can be considered within the same phase of play. He is clearly NOT directly interfering with play when the ball is fired in by Aurier. Has the initial phase involving Sonny not ended when the defender tackles him and the ball goes back out? I think it is a ludicrous decision.

If Sissoko gets booked for the Maddison tackle, why doesn’t Evans for the tackle on Kane at the halfway line? Bear in mind I don’t think either were yellows, but if Kane had pulled a Maddison and looked for a card he’s have got it.

Why weren’t any of our players attacking the 6 yard box when Sonny makes that move on 78 mins into the box? Criminal. Tap in.

I didn’t think VW was great, but for me, the Eriksen sub was one which was just as bad. AWFUL free-kick in the 80th min, just brick. His deliveries were all largely awful.

Demari Gray lucky to stay on the pitch for the OTT stamp on Rose. Foyth off for less at Bournemouth.

Lots of ifs buts and maybes and leciester had their fair share of missed chances too and ‘if only this player did that or if only that shot was better aimed’. And whilst yes we could have won, we also could have lost (and duly did) that in itself should get alarm bells ringing. Im not going to be fooled by poch claiming ‘we were fantastic’. Ndombele has been much more truthful:

I think that we could have won this, but it was a fairly balanced match. It was not like they didn’t deserve to win. I think that at 1-0 we should have controlled the game more.

That is spot on and that is not how these fixtures once were or should be. We should have at least 70% possession, hardly misplace a pass and the result then becomes much more certain.

The system is the cause and if he doesnt bin it, we are in for more helta skelta games when away to weaker teams and more ifs buts and maybes.

Sometimes it will fall our way and on other occasions it wont - as I said fixtures like this shouldnt be like that.

 

[scaramanga]

You mean they do more than defend? Of course. But primarily they are ball winners i.e they defend. Rodri for example, completed the most tackles in la Liga last season. He was bought to replace/ back up Fernandinho not de Bruyne.

Making a lot of tackles doesn't make either primarily a ball winner. Modric made a pile too, remember?

Fernandinho is not a DM - to describe is as just that is hugely insulting to his overall ability - Rodri too. Wanyama is a DM, Parker was a DM. Putting one of those into a modern team with higher expectations would be hugely detrimental to our success.

 

[Robspur12]

Making a lot of tackles doesn't make either primarily a ball winner. Modric made a pile too, remember?

Fernandinho is not a DM - to describe is as just that is hugely insulting to his overall ability - Rodri too.

Modric did not tackle to the extent of those two and is not a defensive midfielder. To make a direct comparison between those two and modric is erroneous imo.

Re Rodri taken from the following article on the BBC website after he arrived at City:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/48860805

As a defensive midfielder, Rodri is said to be outstanding. And, given the position of strength City have worked themselves into, he will have a season to bed in as Fernandinho's stellar Blues career draws to a close.


Re Fernandinho on transfermkt his position is written as defensive midfielder. Similarly in the Independent where they are comparing his conversion into a centre back to Javier Mascherano's, Fernandinho is again referred to as a defensive midfielder.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fernandinho/leistungsdaten/spieler/26267
www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/man-city-fernandinho-defence-pep-guardiola-career-contract-news-a8771696.html%3famp

I am certain pretty much every football observer would describe both of them as defensive midfielders because defending is their primary function. But of course being in a Guardiola team they do not just sit deep.

Fabinho plays that position for Liverpool, Kante for Chelsea. Without Dembele, Wanyama or Dier we lack that kind of quality. Someone for Winks or Ndombele to play alongside. Perhaps long term Ndombele will become that player, too early to say. It shows at the moment in how open we are in midfield, although Sissoko did well there yesterday.

 

[SylDave]

Making a lot of tackles doesn't make either primarily a ball winner. Modric made a pile too, remember?

Fernandinho is not a DM - to describe is as just that is hugely insulting to his overall ability - Rodri too. Wanyama is a DM, Parker was a DM. Putting one of those into a modern team with higher expectations would be hugely detrimental to our success.

So basically your just being pedantic over the term DM as opposed to a deep lying playmaker whose first responsibility is being defensively minded, because if that’s the case whatever you want to call said role i agree with you BUT we don’t have Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets or De Jong, we have Dier, Wanyama and Skipp, Winks is not that player whose first responsibility should be the defensive side/protecting the back four as the City and Barca players are and I’m not sure Ndombele is either.

To go back to one of your previous points about we should be aiming to emulate this, of course we should but that requires signing a player of that profile not sticking a square peg in a round hole, until said time we have Dier, Wanyama and Skipp, we need someone sitting deep protecting the back four.

 

[scaramanga]

So basically your just being pedantic over the term DM as opposed to a deep lying playmaker whose first responsibility is being defensively minded, because if that’s the case whatever you want to call said role i agree with you BUT we don’t have Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets or De Jong, we have Dier, Wanyama and Skipp, Winks is not that player whose first responsibility should be the defensive side/protecting the back four as the City and Barca players are and I’m not sure Ndombele is either.

To go back to one of your previous points about we should be aiming to emulate this, of course we should but that requires signing a player of that profile not sticking a square peg in a round hole, until said time we have Dier, Wanyama and Skipp, we need someone sitting deep protecting the back four.

It's not pedantry, it's a very important distinction.

Using my methods, we would end up with a deep lying 2 of Modric and Dembele and become very successful. Using the traditional description of a DM, we could end up with Parker and Wanyama with obvious results.

 

[Robspur12]

It's not pedantry, it's a very important distinction.

Using my methods, we would end up with a deep lying 2 of Modric and Dembele and become very successful. Using the traditional description of a DM, we could end up with Parker and Wanyama with obvious results.

With Dembele and Wanyama we finished second with our highest ever pl points total. With Kante both Leicester and Chelsea won the PL.

 

[scaramanga]

Modric did not tackle to the extent of those two and is not a defensive midfielder. To make a direct comparison between those two and modric is erroneous imo.

Re Rodri taken from the following article on the BBC website after he arrived at City:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/48860805

As a defensive midfielder, Rodri is said to be outstanding. And, given the position of strength City have worked themselves into, he will have a season to bed in as Fernandinho's stellar Blues career draws to a close.


Re Fernandinho on transfermkt his position is written as defensive midfielder. Similarly in the Independent where they are comparing his conversion into a centre back to Javier Mascherano's, Fernandinho is again referred to as a defensive midfielder.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fernandinho/leistungsdaten/spieler/26267
www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/man-city-fernandinho-defence-pep-guardiola-career-contract-news-a8771696.html%3famp

I am certain pretty much every football observer would describe both of them as defensive midfielders because defending is their primary function. But of course being in a Guardiola team they do not just sit deep.

Fabinho plays that position for Liverpool, Kante for Chelsea. Without Dembele, Wanyama or Dier we lack that kind of quality. Someone for Winks or Ndombele to play alongside. Perhaps long term Ndombele will become that player, too early to say. It shows at the moment in how open we are in midfield, although Sissoko did well there yesterday.

Of course they can defend, all modern midfielders should be able to attack and defend.

Using lazy shorthand and oversimplifications doesn't prove your point.

Neither Rodri nor Fernandinho would have made it into the City team if they weren't elite passers and neither should we be accepting "good at tackling" as a CV for our midfielders. It's a very important distinction because it's the difference between Dembele and Wanyama, between Modric and Parker. Use one method of valuing midfielders (or DMs if you insist) and we end up bottom 6. Use the other and we probably win the league.

Oh and Kante shouldn't ever get anywhere near our team.

 

[Robspur12]

Of course they can defend, all modern midfielders should be able to attack and defend.

Using lazy shorthand and oversimplifications doesn't prove your point.

Neither Rodri nor Fernandinho would have made it into the City team if they weren't elite passers and neither should we be accepting "good at tackling" as a CV for our midfielders. It's a very important distinction because it's the difference between Dembele and Wanyama, between Modric and Parker. Use one method of valuing midfielders (or DMs if you insist) and we end up bottom 6. Use the other and we probably win the league.

Oh and Kante shouldn't ever get anywhere near our team.

Haha you are clearly trolling as usual. I will leave the discussion there.

 

[Legohamster]

We have far to many average players.

I’m not making it a Sissoko hate thread, but he’s in the starting 11 - he would have been near it 2 seasons ago.

Same with this version of Rose.

 

[SylDave]

It's not pedantry, it's a very important distinction.

Using my methods, we would end up with a deep lying 2 of Modric and Dembele and become very successful. Using the traditional description of a DM, we could end up with Parker and Wanyama with obvious results.

But their primary role is still to defend, the point that I was making yesterday and am still making is we would should be playing with this as the pivots in a 4231 and for me Modric and Dembele would take the Winks/Ndombele role.

...Dier/Wanyama/Skipp.........Winks/Ndombele

Now if we were to sign one or two of the players mention above from City or Barca, Fernandinho, Rodri, Busquets or De Jong they would would be replacing Dier/Wanyama/Skipp, so we would end up with for example insert any two you want,

...Fernandinho/De Jong ........Ndombele/Winks

Their primary role is to protect the back four of course they are a massive improvement in possession but that is why they play for the teams they do, we need the foundation offered by the sitting player and we have Dier/Wanyama/Skipp, until they are improved upon by signings or someone magically coming through the academy that’s what we have got.

 

[AdamB]

With the quality which we have in the 3 positions behind Kane (Son, Eriksen, Dele, Moura, Lo Celso, Lamela) we could probably play any two of our CMs and still be relatively ok. We just need to get back to playing our best formation, 4-2-3-1, so that we can play 3 of those behind Kane and get some familiarity with it. Chopping and changing formation is what is killing us, less so which players are picked

 

[Bedfordspurs]

ICYMI in the VAR thread but just to confirm that a player can travel 14cm per frame which means that an attacker really needs to be at least 6 inches offside before VAR can overrule as being a clear & obviousl error, which Son clearly wasn’t!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1160241925380816902

I said this constantly yesterday

You cannot have a system that’s works as a definitive but has a margin of error of 30/40% of the human body’s side profile

Imagine that tolerance for goal line tech!!!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

With the quality which we have in the 3 positions behind Kane (Son, Eriksen, Dele, Moura, Lo Celso, Lamela) we could probably play any two of our CMs and still be relatively ok. We just need to get back to playing our best formation, 4-2-3-1, so that we can play 3 of those behind Kane and get some familiarity with it. Chopping and changing formation is what is killing us, less so which players are picked

I think it’s that simple

 

[braineclipse]

With the quality which we have in the 3 positions behind Kane (Son, Eriksen, Dele, Moura, Lo Celso, Lamela) we could probably play any two of our CMs and still be relatively ok. We just need to get back to playing our best formation, 4-2-3-1, so that we can play 3 of those behind Kane and get some familiarity with it. Chopping and changing formation is what is killing us, less so which players are picked

I agree with that. Though I have less of a problem with changing formations and more of a problem with the diamond formation being used. Leaves the three "deeper" midfielders with way too much to do. Perhaps sometimes when chasing a game, or playing at home against bus parking teams, but not away to a good opponent like Leicester.

So many managers have tried to make the diamond work, I can't think of a single one that's ended up sticking with it consistently and succeeding.

Hope this was the last time we started like this in a game like this. If so it would be a positive from an otherwise disappointing game. Not holding my breath though, Pochettino seems confident that this system will work for us. Perhaps he'll prove us wrong in the end, he has before. Right now though I'm sick and tired of that system.

 

[StephenH]

I think its a tad premature using Lo Celso in any reference for good or bad. Let's wait until he has played a few games.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

With the quality which we have in the 3 positions behind Kane (Son, Eriksen, Dele, Moura, Lo Celso, Lamela) we could probably play any two of our CMs and still be relatively ok. We just need to get back to playing our best formation, 4-2-3-1, so that we can play 3 of those behind Kane and get some familiarity with it. Chopping and changing formation is what is killing us, less so which players are picked

Will be very interesting to see what he picks against soton next week.

Every time this season in the league when the three who started yesterday were fit he’s gone with this three in midfield. I fear he has thought long and hard about what he wants our team to be post signing ndombele and eriksen moving on. Perhaps its why he keeps benching our best by a mile playmaker.

For those reasons I think he will at least for a while longer stick with it. Such stubbornness was shown yesterday when the helta skelta nature of that game was there for all to see at 0-1, when anything could have happened 1-1 or 0-2 and he should have at that point corrected his mistake by getting eriksen on for ndombele or sissoko and switching to 4231, but instead he brings on wanyama for sissoko and persists with the three in midfield and actually making us worse.

Poch is clearly not thinking correctly atm, its very worrying. I can see him being stubborn next week, picking sanchez at right back or playing him over toby or jan, playing three in midfield and again leaving eriksen out.

Wouldnt surprise me at all if we lose 0-1 to soton next week if he does that.

If he persists again after that we will go to brighton and have another end to end open game and probably will draw 2-2 and ppl will say ‘oh but that was a penalty on lamela’ and ‘oh but if only kane aimed the shot better’.

We should go to brighton and have 80% possession, give the ball away no more than three times, concede no more than two chances and win 0-4.

Thats the benchmark, thats what we used to be and if we dont get back to it we are heading to the europa legaue and a poch sacking.

 

[StephenH]

If we lose 0-1 to Soton.
I would not be shocked to see Levy act