Who has more chance

[superfaisty]

of dislodging the current first choice:

Defoe vs Soldado or
Holtby vs Erikssen

IMO Holtby is showing a lot of promise in the hole behind the striker, albeit against weaker oppo in the cup. though to be fair he has shown something when he's come on in the league.

Defoe is also being quite deadly, also against weaker oppo in the cup.

Not sure if either will ever dislodge their counterpart. Holtby could at least play deeper in CM or wide left if needs be, by Jermain is likely to be playing second fiddle to Bobby for some time.

Its not so bad right now when we have a lot of Euro cup games, but second half of the season I can see JD getting very annoyed if he's not starting given it's a world cup year and all that.

Thoughts?

 

[braineclipse]

of dislodging the current first choice:

Defoe vs Soldado or
Holtby vs Erikssen

IMO Holtby is showing a lot of promise in the hole behind the striker, albeit against weaker oppo in the cup. though to be fair he has shown something when he's come on in the league.

Defoe is also being quite deadly, also against weaker oppo in the cup.

Not sure if either will ever dislodge their counterpart. Holtby could at least play deeper in CM or wide left if needs be, by Jermain is likely to be playing second fiddle to Bobby for some time.

Its not so bad right now when we have a lot of Euro cup games, but second half of the season I can see JD getting very annoyed if he's not starting given it's a world cup year and all that.

Thoughts?

Directly dislodging the other player, meaning taking their position and the other player being on the bench? Close one, I don't think either one is particularly close to doing that.

Becoming a regular starter for us, Holtby seems a lot closer since both him and Eriksen can play multiple positions whilst both Defoe and Soldado compete for the one spot.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Holtby

For all Eriksen's impressive start, I do think he was a bit shocked/overwhelmed by the intensity of the Chelsea match. For me there's not much between the pair - Eriksen has a bit more guile, whereas Holtby has more drive. They are a great pair of options and I also love us switching them at 70 minutes to mix things up and give us a final flourish in a match.

I don't think Defoe will ever start against a top opponent unless Soldado (and soon maybe Ade) is injured. Defoe is the Graeme Hick of football - he's spanks those county cricket bowlers better than anyone, but completely crumbles with Ambrose, Walsh, Merv Hughes etc. hurtling in at him.

 

[Nezza]

I'm not going to directly answer this, but here's my view on JD and the World Cup.

England tends to be a good league-type side - hard to beat and normally score at least once per game. That's why they usually qualify for tournaments and tend to get out of the group. But they aren't a great cup side - they draw too many games, which is why they often end up in a penalty shoot-out with the inevitable results.

So it's particularly ironic to me that one of the reasons Hodgson cited for not playing Defoe was his lack of league starts. Yes, Roy, but he's playing (and scoring) in all the cup matches, and it's cup players (and a cup mentality) you need.

 

[Spur of the moment]

You have to wonder how long AVB will continue to prefer Soldado over Defoe on current form. The Spaniard is probably safe for the moment but if PL results start to go pear-shaped whilst Defoe carries on banging them in the cups, he'll surely get his chance.

Agree that AVB is unlikely to favour Holtby over Eriksen any time soon, so until injuries create an opening his best chance is in dislodging either Townsend or possibly Sigurdsson as and when one of them goes off the boil.

By that time of course he'll probably have even more intense competition from the likes of Lennon, Chadli and Lamela.

Good times!

 

[diego_maradona]

AVB has always run his clubs on meritocracy (See Dawson). Defoe and Holtby are deserving of a chance. However AVB has often stuck with players when they are not quite at their best too. (See Dempsey)

 

[Raziel]

For me Holtby is the interesting one, might be worth a shot at

- Giving JD a shot at a PL game
- Giving Soldado a cup game with Holtby behind him

Tough call, the good news is don't think anyone would be distressed if one of those changes was forced on us (e.g. injury/suspension), big change from previous years.

 

[braineclipse]

AVB has always run his clubs on meritocracy (See Dawson). Defoe and Holtby are deserving of a chance. However AVB has often stuck with players when they are not quite at their best too. (See Dempsey)

It feels a bit like splitting hairs here, but I agree that they are deserving of a chance. That to me doesn't mean that they should get a start (at this point at least), others might be ahead of them on merit/deserve the start even more.

Eriksen also deserves a start, I think Lamela deserves a start personally, Sigurdson deserves a start, Townsend deserves a start. Include Holtby and that's 5 players that deserve to start for 3 positions.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

AVB doesn't rotate his squad that much, and I have little doubt he knows what his preferred XI is and he'll stick with it. The one at the moment who is definitely upsetting the applecart for him is Townsend, as I have little doubt AVB is itching to get Lamela into the side full time. IMO his current first choice XI is below and he will play it sooner rather than later:

Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Rose, Lamela, Dembele, Paulinho, Eriksen, Chadli, Soldado

 

[braineclipse]

AVB doesn't rotate his squad that much, and I have little doubt he knows what his preferred XI is and he'll stick with it. The one at the moment who is definitely upsetting the applecart for him is Townsend, as I have little doubt AVB is itching to get Lamela into the side full time. IMO his current first choice XI is below and he will play it sooner rather than later:

Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Rose, Lamela, Dembele, Paulinho, Eriksen, Chadli, Soldado

You're talking about between Premier League matches? Because between PL and EL/LC games he's rotated heavily.

Which teams do you think rotate their starting 11 "that much" between PL games?

He wouldn't be much of a manager if he wasn't able to more or less pick a strongest 11 out of our squad with the exception of a couple of places. He's shown in the past that he won't just stick with an 11 though and he will change things if the starting 11 aren't performing at the level he's expecting and other players in the squad is impressing when given the chance.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

You're talking about between Premier League matches? Because between PL and EL/LC games he's rotated heavily.

Which teams do you think rotate their starting 11 "that much" between PL games?

He wouldn't be much of a manager if he wasn't able to more or less pick a strongest 11 out of our squad with the exception of a couple of places. He's shown in the past that he won't just stick with an 11 though and he will change things if the starting 11 aren't performing at the level he's expecting and other players in the squad is impressing when given the chance.

So far, but that I think is down to easy opposition and horrid away fixtures. Last season he barely rotated even for those cups, and I doubt he will do again when the going starts to get tougher. At present its been taken out of his hands somewhat, although I was surprised to see Dembele and Walker complete the game mid week.

 

[IulianSteaua]

I always think the most in form players should play, if not they will loose confidence and think even if i play excellent, i train hard and give 100% the coach will not play me so what's the point. So going forward I say Holtby and Defoe should start, let eriksen and soldado play in the cups, gain confidence, adapt to english football and after defoe/holtby finish the goals/assists in the bag, we will bring back eriksen and soldado.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I always think the most in form players should play, if not they will loose confidence and think even if i play excellent, i train hard and give 100% the coach will not play me so what's the point. So going forward I say Holtby and Defoe should start, let eriksen and soldado play in the cups, gain confidence, adapt to english football and after defoe/holtby finish the goals/assists in the bag, we will bring back eriksen and soldado.

I agree, but we couldn't have been drawn a more inconvenient Europa League group. What I don't understand is why bring certain players along if they aren't going to play. It's not the match that wears the players out, it's the travelling, timezone differences, sleeping in a hotel etc.

 

[Spursalot]

I agree, but we couldn't have been drawn a more inconvenient Europa League group. What I don't understand is why bring certain players along if they aren't going to play. It's not the match that wears the players out, it's the travelling, timezone differences, sleeping in a hotel etc.

To bring on if we're losing. Granted it would be nice to leave them at home, but it would be even nicer to make sure we win the first four games of the groups and thus confirm our qualification.


Our last two group games are Tromso, in between the two manchester clubs and just before the horrific december schedule, and Anzhi, between Sunderland and Liverpool and in the middle of that december schedule.


I would rather we were not concerned about qualification for either of those two games, so that we can rest everyone we can.


We have a relatively easy October too, so tiredness shouldn't be that much of an issue until later in the season.

 

[braineclipse]

I always think the most in form players should play, if not they will loose confidence and think even if i play excellent, i train hard and give 100% the coach will not play me so what's the point. So going forward I say Holtby and Defoe should start, let eriksen and soldado play in the cups, gain confidence, adapt to english football and after defoe/holtby finish the goals/assists in the bag, we will bring back eriksen and soldado.

It has to be based on a combination of form and ability. At some point you also have to say that ability trumps form because letting your best players play themselves into top form will have additional long term value.

You don't think Soldado and Eriksen have trained hard and given 100%? If you think they have then why bring it up, it's the same for all the players in question in that case.

Eriksen had a brilliant assist in his first league game and a vital pass after a great turn leading up to the goal against Chelsea. Not playing him would be not playing someone who is, demonstrably, in form.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree, but we couldn't have been drawn a more inconvenient Europa League group. What I don't understand is why bring certain players along if they aren't going to play. It's not the match that wears the players out, it's the travelling, timezone differences, sleeping in a hotel etc.

Surely it's a combination of the match, the traveling etc? Not just one or the other? And I would think that the match would be the most important factor of the two...

In addition to the value of having a strong bench like Spursalot pointed out we're in a situation where we have most of our best young players out on loan.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Holtby

For all Eriksen's impressive start, I do think he was a bit shocked/overwhelmed by the intensity of the Chelsea match. For me there's not much between the pair - Eriksen has a bit more guile, whereas Holtby has more drive. They are a great pair of options and I also love us switching them at 70 minutes to mix things up and give us a final flourish in a match.

I don't think Defoe will ever start against a top opponent unless Soldado (and soon maybe Ade) is injured. Defoe is the Graeme Hick of football - he's spanks those county cricket bowlers better than anyone, but completely crumbles with Ambrose, Walsh, Merv Hughes etc. hurtling in at him.

Do you mean just in the last league game or going forward? Personally I don't like the idea of Eriksen being subbed every game if we're not winning. He has arguably more potential than Holtby to change a game. That doesn't mean don't bring Holtby, just not for Eriksen every time.

To answer the question, at this moment in time probably Defoe. But Defoe has had plenty of chances over the years to prove he is the main man at Spurs, but we've all seen how he goes on these purple patches and yet ultimately can't sustain them over a season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

AVB doesn't rotate his squad that much, and I have little doubt he knows what his preferred XI is and he'll stick with it. The one at the moment who is definitely upsetting the applecart for him is Townsend, as I have little doubt AVB is itching to get Lamela into the side full time. IMO his current first choice XI is below and he will play it sooner rather than later:

Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vertonghen, Rose, Lamela, Dembele, Paulinho, Eriksen, Chadli, Soldado

I would argue Sandro will be first choice, eventually. I can see either Sig or Townsend ahead of Chadli too.

 

[braineclipse]

I thought this post from the Anzhi OMT deserved to be posted in this thread to:

Defoe in the League - 0 goals in 45 minutes
Defoe in the Cups - 7 goals in 360 minutes (one goal every 51 minutes)

Soldado in the League - 2 goals in 508 minutes (one goal every 254 minutes)
Soldado in the Cups - 2 goals in 70 minutes (one goal every 35 minutes)

Point being that between Soldado and Defoe it's not a choice between a player that is in very good form and a player that is completely out of form. Soldado hasn't been playing poorly either, he's been decently involved in play, he's gotten into some scoring positions, he even got the assist against Chelsea and when he did get a game against lesser opposition he too bagged a couple of goals.

It's a choice between Defoe in very good form and Soldado in alright form. At this point, this early in Soldado's Spurs career, this soon after the club showed just how highly he is rated by AVB and Baldini by spending £26m on him, I think we'll be better served allowing Soldado to keep his place when he's doing alright and wait for him to find his top form too.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Surely it's a combination of the match, the traveling etc? Not just one or the other? And I would think that the match would be the most important factor of the two...

In addition to the value of having a strong bench like Spursalot pointed out we're in a situation where we have most of our best young players out on loan.

I travel internationally for work, and believe me the travelling is VERY tiring. It's even worse when you're just travelling somewhere for a couple of days within Europe is even more tiring than doing a transatlantic jaunt where you know you're going to be there Monday to Friday.