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What went wrong?

indianspur said:
wenger was right....for 5 mins we were ok, but for 85 mins they skinned us alive

fcuk formations when you cannot pass from A to B. We couldnt keep the ball, we were slow all over the pitch, lethargic for the majority of the game

the thing is that Arse have one way of playing, its to pass and move and to do it at speed. When they get it right and are on their game they are hard to stop, especially if like we played like we did by not at least keeping the ball away from them.

and even without Dawson(who is always to blame it seems) we kept hoofing it from the back, again meat and drink to their defenders and we simply kept gifting them possession.

shocking
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=D>=D>
 
ultimately what went wrong is this.....formation and tactics were wrong from the start this was then compounded by out substitutions being fudged up. Bringing on VDV was a good move, but he should either have held off substituting Saha for Sandro or substituted him for Lennon as it was obvious that we were lacking width...hell Arsenal were doing better than us out wide and their wingers are brick.

We should have gone with our best formation and team that got us in this position, Harry's tactical tinkering fudged us up.
 
I think people underestimate how much cover Lennon and Bale can provide when they play as out-an-out wingers

If we put Kranjcar in for Lennon, that's about 5 miles less running (and tracking back) in midfield

And seriously, if Kranjcar persists in "stroking" the ball everytime he receives it, he's going to become my next Corluka.

If Bale comes inside, then our left back is exposed. BAE has some pace, but he's always going to get destroyed by Walcott.

We should stick to plan A at the death star. Bale and Lennon out wide, with VDV supporting ADE.
 
We couldnt pass the ball against Stevenage, that was because of a bumpy pitch wasnt it ? We couldnt pass the ball against the Scum, what is the excuse this time from the fans ?
 
Wriggly said:
We couldnt pass the ball against Stevenage, that was because of a bumpy pitch wasnt it ? We couldnt pass the ball against the Scum, what is the excuse this time from the fans ?
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Excuse? Is the players did not play well enough an excuse?

A large number of our players yesterday disappointed me, and probably other spurs fans as well.
 
Wriggly said:
We couldnt pass the ball against Stevenage, that was because of a bumpy pitch wasnt it ? We couldnt pass the ball against the Scum, what is the excuse this time from the fans ?
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We lump the ball from the back against Stevenage because Dawson is a piece of brick defender (according to you) then we lump the ball from the back all game against the Scum (but your bete noire Dawson only came on at the end and therefore couldn't be the spacegoat this time.) what is your excuse this time?
 
indianspur said:
wenger was right....for 5 mins we were ok, but for 85 mins they skinned us alive

fcuk formations when you cannot pass from A to B. We couldnt keep the ball, we were slow all over the pitch, lethargic for the majority of the game

the thing is that Arse have one way of playing, its to pass and move and to do it at speed. When they get it right and are on their game they are hard to stop, especially if like we played like we did by not at least keeping the ball away from them.

and even without Dawson(who is always to blame it seems) we kept hoofing it from the back, again meat and drink to their defenders and we simply kept gifting them possession.

shocking
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This is about how I saw it too.

We needed to press them high up the pitch but it rarely happened. We needed to retain possession but we constantly went long, even with an easy pass on. The same players on the pitch had destroyed Saudi Sportswashing Machine so Harry decided to keep with them. I don't blame him for that but it was immediately obvious from about the 5-10 mark on that it was not working. He should have changed it early doors. The Spurs goals were against the run of play I thought.

For me the key moment was when Bale had that shot when if he squared it we would have probably gone (undeservedly) 3-0 up. He choose to shoot and this was just another of the wrong decisions made by our players today and there were countless others. The death of a thousand cuts.

On top of all that Arsenal were excellent in possession and attack. I'm praying that we don't capitulate against Man Utd like that.
 
It seemed to me that after the first goal our players became more scared of losing than willing to fight to win. In those opening minutes (and for a bit after the first goal) we were quite brave, we pressed high up the pitch, defended from the front and pretty much as a unit. After that we sat back, very deep. We allowed Arsenal possession well into our half almost without resistance. Meanwhile they pressed and forced us into long balls, and unfortunately Saha and Ade weren't able to hold the ball up.

On the ball we looked nervous, off the ball when we had possession we looked unsure of what to do. Unwilling to make real attacking runs that might leave us exposed. Walker made a brilliant run to open up space for the 1-0 goal, but our off the ball movement for most of the match was poor.

We were more afraid of losing what we had gained, Arsenal unfortunately were brave and much more willing to fight.

Defending deeply is fine at times, but not as an overall gameplan for us with two strikers on the pitch and Kranjcar and Bale on the wings. Sometimes you get forced into defending deeply, that's understandable. But we conceded almost two thirds of the pitch to arsenal almost without a fight. With that line-up, in that situation, that's not fine.

Not much point in blaming individual players, I think the management (mainly Harry) and possibly the senior players have to shoulder the blame.
 
thfcsteff said:
Parker's booking was massive, absolutely massive, coupled with Luka's. Took out our midfield, but especially Parker, who's game is based on tough-tackling...from that point on, he couldn't press/destroy like he likes to...I still think going 4-4-2 was a mistake...
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Ref ...pay off!
 
braineclipse said:
It seemed to me that after the first goal our players became more scared of losing than willing to fight to win. In those opening minutes (and for a bit after the first goal) we were quite brave, we pressed high up the pitch, defended from the front and pretty much as a unit. After that we sat back, very deep. We allowed Arsenal possession well into our half almost without resistance. Meanwhile they pressed and forced us into long balls, and unfortunately Saha and Ade weren't able to hold the ball up.

On the ball we looked nervous, off the ball when we had possession we looked unsure of what to do. Unwilling to make real attacking runs that might leave us exposed. Walker made a brilliant run to open up space for the 1-0 goal, but our off the ball movement for most of the match was poor.

We were more afraid of losing what we had gained, Arsenal unfortunately were brave and much more willing to fight.

Defending deeply is fine at times, but not as an overall gameplan for us with two strikers on the pitch and Kranjcar and Bale on the wings. Sometimes you get forced into defending deeply, that's understandable. But we conceded almost two thirds of the pitch to arsenal almost without a fight. With that line-up, in that situation, that's not fine.

Not much point in blaming individual players, I think the management (mainly Harry) and possibly the senior players have to shoulder the blame.
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This, as much as the fact that are starting line up was wrong, and our subs were wrong, this was our biggest weakness. At two nil up, however lucky we were to be in that situation given that it was due to a lucky deflection and a dodgy (to say the least) penalty we should have gained enough confidence to really have a go at them. Instead the opposite seemed to happen and we seemed to shrink back into our shell, almost cramming ourselves back into the final third of the pitch and staying way too deep thereby putting ourselves under pressure. TBH this reeked of the smalll time defeatist mentality of which I thought and hoped we had rid ourselves as a club. Yesterday has the potential to be a most unwanted turning point, there is major pressure on 'Arry and the players to sort themselves out in time for ManUre (who we haven't beaten at home in ages.

So fudging tinkled off with this brick!!!!!
 
Defence went walkabout yesterday, baffling considering the way we defended against Liverpool and other this season.
 
I have too agree100% with this.

we had a big big chance of really excelling in the League for the first ih the Prems History!!!

We should have been up for this like F*** ....and we went out there and capitulated.............................................
 
Can't remember ever being as angry with a Spurs performance. What went wrong? Insufficient width. Too slow in midfield eg Krunchie VDV and Sandro (i'm 50 and I reckon I would get around fasrer than this guy.) Defended too deep, it was as if we were saying come on Robin, see how many you can score. The tracking back was non-existent, Bale, Modric, even Parker. It was no surprise that Parker got sent off, as he was ten metres off the pace all day. Well done to the Scummers, given their situation prior to the match and than conceding to Saha's hashed 'strike' and an embarrassing Bale penalty dive. If only our guys had shown some similar fight. Would not rate any Spurs player above a four.
.

Gary.
 
Sandro for me was absolutely shocking yesterday. I can only hope he was unfit but he looked like he had never played before. He was all over the place.
 
We have to acknowledge the elephant in the room. If Harry has made his decision on England and the players realise he's leaving, that will inevitably have an affect on performances. Their minds will be on their own futures in the summer.

Harry was quick to deny it was having an effect but we'll have a better idea at the end of March - was Capello's resignation a disasterous turning point in our season (with the barcodes win an exception) or have abysmal performances against Stevenage and Arsenal been a blip.

Harry was quick to blame to the thrashings from City and Utd on the Modric saga, 'I've been around football clubs long enough to know that when the mood and atmosphere around the place isnt right then it's not going to be a good environment for playing football'.

What about a situation where it's the manager who wants out rather than one of the players Harry?
 
Lots went wrong yesterday. Have to agree with totman that 4-4-2 was NOT the cause of the defeat. At the end of the day we were level at half-time. I didn't necessarily agree with the line-up but I think Harry thought over 4-5-1 but decided that given the outstanding performance against Saudi Sportswashing Machine with Krancjar and Saha in the team the line-up deserved another shot. Too much sentimentality there imo. No way were bad in the first half. We were quite direct but were breaking brilliantly and for 30 mins Arsenal's passes were going astray and our back 4 were first to the ball. We started to drop deep after the 2nd goal instead of pressing home our advantage. We had been calm in possesion but we got caught up in the occasion. They scored and scored again quickly which knocked the stuffing out of us.

At half-time I was hopeful that because it was 2-2 we could regain control as if it had been 2-1 I had a feeling we'd sit and wait for the inevitable. As it were Harry's subs were very poor. Sandro looked unfit, and ill-disciplined. He was booked for persistent fouling and couldn't pass the ball. Van der Vaart playing from the right was also a poor decision. With Bale roaming from the left we ended up with no real shape and no real width and encouraged them to pour forward. We had a massive problem down our left. With the midfield overloading forwards we ended up with Arsenal getting at the back four. They targetted our left as Bale was not providing support to Ekotto. I've no doubt this 'free role' is an instruction from the manager. He should have instructed Bale to stick to the left to tighten things up.

Once the 3rd went in we were far too anxious to get the ball forwards and emotions took over instead of having calm heads. This is the crux. We needed to re-group but that 20 min spell killed the game and it was only with about 15-20 to go that we had got a grip of the formation.

So in summary I would mainly put it down to Harry's tactics and team choices on the day. The players have to take some of the blame but if you give them a sensible platform to perform they don't usually captiulate as has been proven this season.

Hopefully a number of painful lessons learned yesterday.
 
Some people point to the fact that we didn't do very well in 4-5-1 in the second half, as evidence for the outcome not being about systems. Or at least not about 4-4-2 vs 4-5-1/ However, there are several problems with this argument.

1. In reality we didn't play 4-5-1 for most of the second half, but what looked like 4-3-3 much of the time with VdV and Bale way up the pitch. Worse, and imprtantly, both VDV and Bale played narrow instead of wide so we didn't attack their full backs or support our own.

2. Because we went behind so quickly in the second half we were chasing the game in a supposed 4-5-1, so it was the wrong formation at that point in the game anyway. Not that we stuck to it.

3. in the 4-4-2, although we went 2-0 up, the balance of play had alraedy moved against us from about halfway through the first half, and we never looked like we controlled the midfield, or exploited the flanks effectively. Arsenal targeted Benny very effectively, and Walker slightly less effectiely, who were both unprotected most of the game.

4. To deal with a team like Arsenal away, you have to a) neutralise the 3 CM superiority with 3 CMs b) neutralise, psychologically and in reality, their pace down the flanks -with your own pace c) keep RVP quiet. We failed to do any of these.

Even at 2-0 up I felt we stood good chance of losing unless we changed things around -particularly playing Bale and Lennon wide and going three CMs -and that is what Harry should have done at 2-0 up. At 2-0 up I took 10-1 on an Arsenal win. I'd have preferred to have been proved wrong, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one who read the game that way.

Other factors like the yellow cards, and some of the player's attitudes didn't help, but I think poor tactics were the main reason for yesterday's shambles.
 
ringo said:
Some people point to the fact that we didn't do very well in 4-5-1 in the second half, as evidence for the outcome not being about systems. Or at least not about 4-4-2 vs 4-5-1/ However, there are several problems with this argument.

1. In reality we didn't play 4-5-1 for most of the second half, but what looked like 4-3-3 much of the time with VdV and Bale way up the pitch. Worse, and imprtantly, both VDV and Bale played narrow instead of wide so we didn't attack their full backs or support our own.

2. Because we went behind so quickly in the second half we were chasing the game in a supposed 4-5-1, so it was the wrong formation at that point in the game anyway. Not that we stuck to it.

3. in the 4-4-2, although we went 2-0 up, the balance of play had alraedy moved against us from about halfway through the first half, and we never looked like we controlled the midfield, or exploited the flanks effectively. Arsenal targeted Benny very effectively, and Walker slightly less effectiely, who were both unprotected most of the game.

4. To deal with a team like Arsenal away, you have to a) neutralise the 3 CM superiority with 3 CMs b) neutralise, psychologically and in reality, their pace down the flanks -with your own pace c) keep RVP quiet. We failed to do any of these.

Even at 2-0 up I felt we stood good chance of losing unless we changed things around -particularly playing Bale and Lennon wide and going three CMs -and that is what Harry should have done at 2-0 up. At 2-0 up I took 10-1 on an Arsenal win. I'd have preferred to have been proved wrong, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one who read the game that way.

Other factors like the yellow cards, and some of the player's attitudes didn't help, but I think poor tactics were the main reason for yesterday's shambles.
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Whilst the balance of play did shift - we still looked like scoring. Did we in any way shape or form look like scoring in the second half? Atleast in the first we looked like creating, we had more width and whilst they had a brickload of the ball we had the tools to counter attack (which is when we look at our best).

I always felt it was a game of attackers and not defences, it was a game that was always going to produce goals and dare I say it a game where we had to deploy some Kevin Keegan/Ossie Ardiles type tactics.

We are not a defensive team, we are not a team that can just sit on our laurels (although we did it against Liverscum theyre no way near as dangerous as Arse) we have the players that are attacking - they are attack minded players.

The only thing I will say is that playing a 442 with Kranjcar wasnt always going to be that effective as Kranjcar goes walkabout and comes inside naturally, Lennon would have give us that defensive cover.
 
DHSF said:
Whilst the balance of play did shift - we still looked like scoring. Did we in any way shape or form look like scoring in the second half? Atleast in the first we looked like creating, we had more width and whilst they had a brickload of the ball we had the tools to counter attack (which is when we look at our best).

I always felt it was a game of attackers and not defences, it was a game that was always going to produce goals and dare I say it a game where we had to deploy some Kevin Keegan/Ossie Ardiles type tactics.

We are not a defensive team, we are not a team that can just sit on our laurels (although we did it against Liverscum theyre no way near as dangerous as Arse) we have the players that are attacking - they are attack minded players.

The only thing I will say is that playing a 442 with Kranjcar wasnt always going to be that effective as Kranjcar goes walkabout and comes inside naturally, Lennon would have give us that defensive cover.
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DHSF, I know I have been asking for more in the midfield to counter their extra man, but could definately have seen merit to simply swapping Kranjcar for Lennon and giving it a go. If we were still getting overrun, then 15 mins later bring on VdV for Saha.

They are still shambolic in defence. Problem were we were even worse yesterday. Really wish we had a game tomorrow to put it out of our mind and quick.

Actually I think its perhaps the perfect thing to happen to us going into the United game. We have been given a nasty shock to the system. Nothing should be taken for granted from now until the end of the season. Just wish Parker didn't stupidly get himself sent off at the end.
 
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