We have a very poor centre midfield

[Robspur12]

Part of the problem today is that our central midfield players have played a lot of games in a short space of time allied with there was little option to change things from the bench. I have seen nothing from Capoue to suggest if he had come on in place of bentaleb we would have done any better. However, Lamela or Townsend on the left may have been interesting and given Arsenal something to think about.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Bentaleb is not good enough.

And this based on his first start, Spurs fans never cease to amaze me

 

[Lilywhite]

I don't think we have a poor centre midfield. Here's my (very) brief take on them individually:

Dembele - decent defensively, good engine, very good at running with the ball past opponents. Not very agile, gets confused too often once he gets himself in a good position in the final third. Good player

Paulinho - gets in to good positions in the box, good engine, decent technique. Poor tackler, wasteful in front of goal. Good player

Sandro - excellent engine, tough in the tackle, generally good positonally. Very injury-prone, offers zero going forward aside from the odd crackerjack of a strike, sloppy in possession at times. Good player

Capoue - good in the defensive midfield position, decent passer, offers nothing going forward. Decent player

Holtby - great work ethic, good at keeping it ticking, very inconsistent with what he offers in the final third. Decent player

Sigurdsson - a bullet shot. Not a lot else. Limited player

Overall that's a decent array of talent. The main problem is how similar they are, with absolutely none of them offering much competence in the creativity department and, my biggest issue of all...

STATIC

None of them are what you would call great pass and move players. I genuinely don't think any of them can realistically fit in to a system that the likes of Emirates Marketing Project, Liverpool and Woolwich use.

Players like Silva, Fernandinho, Coutinho, Henderson, Ramsey, Wheelchair etc etc. all lack some of our midfielders' tools but are all far, far better equipped to play WITH the ball. Their movement when a teammate has it is for all to see. Ours? I watched today at one stage Chiriches (I think) had the ball and absolutely none of our midfielders offered him an outlet so he had to uncharacteristically hoof it. Dembele in particular is guilty of this when you take in to account his ability.

Modric was a master of this. Having one more destructive type midfielder next to him suited to him perfectly, whether that was Parker or Sandro they complemented one another. We often play with two or three of identical midfielders, none of whom make runs in to good spaces which thus leaves the player who has the ball clueless as to who he can give it to. No cohesion, and that's what I feel is holding us back in the middle of the park. We can dominate some opponents physically but if their players are able to keep the ball well and move then we really struggle to cope.

P.S. No, the answer is not Tom Carroll. Oh how we could have done with Moutinho!

 

[Mumorn]

Our best pass and move players are Lamela, Soldado and Eriksen.

One can't get in our team. One is a striker and one is playing on the left hand side.

 

[Lilywhite]

Precisely my point.

It's just poor management, but I'm not going to blame the managers a huge amount for this cos they're been dealt the hand and have to try and work around it.

Our transfer dealings were just abysmally planned. Too many similar players in the same areas, not enough room for flexibility or mixing it up.

 

[Mumorn]

Well it could show the direction we were going for the club. Eriksen, Lamela and Soldado were all signed in the summer. All of which could have been Baldini signings meaning he has an idea of the future of Spurs.

 

[90sSpursBook]

I would bring Tom Carroll back in the short-term. He has about 50 career apps at senior level and will be useful against Palace and Swansea.

Ideally send Bentaleb out on loan to a PL team (Sunderland, Norwich?).

 

[diego_maradona]

Tim's willing to give Bentaleb a go and is commended for it.

For crying out loud, just give Lamela a frigging chance.

 

[Mumorn]

With the injuries we have, I'd just recall Carroll and have him and Bentaleb floating around the team, they will get game time with the injuries we have in midfield and we still have a lot of games left this season.

I remember West Ham away last year at 2-2. Tom Carroll came on and he kept possession brilliantly, If I remember correctly he had a part to play in Bales late winner too.

 

[Raziel]

That probably had more to do with Modric than Huddlestone ... hence why one is playing for Real Madrid now and the other is at Hull - not that I think Hudd is a poor player.

This, can we please stop the Hudd love in, I liked the guy, but he would not get in this midfield, nor should he.

 

[Orbital]

This, can we please stop the Hudd love in, I liked the guy, but he would not get in this midfield, nor should he.

Yes Raziel, even though he's better than all of the scared, hiding, uncreative, couldn't-care-less midfielders we have at the moment, he wouldn't get in.

 

[Cochise]

Earlier this season at the Emirate we played a three man midfield and out played them at times. The problem was that the man often breaking towards their goal only had Soldado ahead of him and a winger either side, when really we could have done with all three making moves towards the oppositions goal. Tonight the two man was always destined to fail, those that bring up UTD forget how poor they are this season. Bentaleb looked scared and played the easy ball and Demebele tried to beat his man but usually found himself up against two. The moment we went to three in midfield I felt we moved the ball much better.

 

[spasm]

I hate it even more over the past few years. People have been getting more and more entrenched in their views for certain managers or players and come on here after every loss to either slate the player/ manager they don't like or big up their choice. It is pathetic and boring (this isn't in reference to Yiddo, who I haven't noticed doing so).

Am I in some parallel universe where we regularly beat Arsenal at the Emirates playing 4-5-1? Or am I in the real one where we get smashed up there regardless of the formation?

this. it's their passing and movement and the speed and accuracy at which they do it that dismantles us every single ****ing time...

 

[Seedy Ron]

Tim's willing to give Bentaleb a go and is commended for it.

For crying out loud, just give Lamela a frigging chance.

Didn't Tyldeslely name Erik as part of our injured list during his commentary? Obviously that's no guarantee of accuracy, but might not be available to Tim & co at this point.

 

[harr1984]

Bentaleb is not good enough.

Oh behave!! Absolute joker....

 

[Rorschach]

Earlier this season at the Emirate we played a three man midfield and out played them at times. The problem was that the man often breaking towards their goal only had Soldado ahead of him and a winger either side, when really we could have done with all three making moves towards the oppositions goal. Tonight the two man was always destined to fail, those that bring up UTD forget how poor they are this season. Bentaleb looked scared and played the easy ball and Demebele tried to beat his man but usually found himself up against two. The moment we went to three in midfield I felt we moved the ball much better.

Yeah that is the way I saw it too.

Out of possession we got it wrong. Besides being outnumbered in midfield one of dembele or bentaleb were being drawn too far up the pitch to engage arteta. Even when this didn't happen the two cms were miles from the two centre backs. The arsenal attacking midfielders had all the space they wanted in behind.

 

[DHSF]

Earlier this season at the Emirate we played a three man midfield and out played them at times. The problem was that the man often breaking towards their goal only had Soldado ahead of him and a winger either side, when really we could have done with all three making moves towards the oppositions goal. Tonight the two man was always destined to fail, those that bring up UTD forget how poor they are this season. Bentaleb looked scared and played the easy ball and Demebele tried to beat his man but usually found himself up against two. The moment we went to three in midfield I felt we moved the ball much better.

There will always be an opportunity cost with playing either of the two formations i.e. three in midfield or two in midfield. What TS is trying to do is have a combination of both through transitioning when defending and when attacking. So its not and never has been as simple as having two in midfield. I think its tiredness that impacted on our tactics failing and not the tactics themselves.

If you have tactics but the players are unable to implement those tactics (primarily due to tiredness) how can anyone blame TS? Its not like TS has had an opportunity to change the personnel due to injuries.


Arsenal yesterday were much fresher, they were able to change personnel and bring in fresher players. They were far more energetic and vibrant so to speak.

 

[metalgear]

i think we have a very strong midfield if all are fit.
bentaleb and capoue haven't had enough games so its too early to tell, especially bentaleb who has time behind him to get even better.

 

[monkeybarry]

I don't think we have a poor centre midfield. Here's my (very) brief take on them individually:

Dembele - decent defensively, good engine, very good at running with the ball past opponents. Not very agile, gets confused too often once he gets himself in a good position in the final third. Good player

Paulinho - gets in to good positions in the box, good engine, decent technique. Poor tackler, wasteful in front of goal. Good player

Sandro - excellent engine, tough in the tackle, generally good positonally. Very injury-prone, offers zero going forward aside from the odd crackerjack of a strike, sloppy in possession at times. Good player

Capoue - good in the defensive midfield position, decent passer, offers nothing going forward. Decent player

Holtby - great work ethic, good at keeping it ticking, very inconsistent with what he offers in the final third. Decent player

Sigurdsson - a bullet shot. Not a lot else. Limited player

Overall that's a decent array of talent. The main problem is how similar they are, with absolutely none of them offering much competence in the creativity department and, my biggest issue of all...

STATIC

None of them are what you would call great pass and move players. I genuinely don't think any of them can realistically fit in to a system that the likes of Emirates Marketing Project, Liverpool and Woolwich use.

Players like Silva, Fernandinho, Coutinho, Henderson, Ramsey, Wheelchair etc etc. all lack some of our midfielders' tools but are all far, far better equipped to play WITH the ball. Their movement when a teammate has it is for all to see. Ours? I watched today at one stage Chiriches (I think) had the ball and absolutely none of our midfielders offered him an outlet so he had to uncharacteristically hoof it. Dembele in particular is guilty of this when you take in to account his ability.

Modric was a master of this. Having one more destructive type midfielder next to him suited to him perfectly, whether that was Parker or Sandro they complemented one another. We often play with two or three of identical midfielders, none of whom make runs in to good spaces which thus leaves the player who has the ball clueless as to who he can give it to. No cohesion, and that's what I feel is holding us back in the middle of the park. We can dominate some opponents physically but if their players are able to keep the ball well and move then we really struggle to cope.

P.S. No, the answer is not Tom Carroll. Oh how we could have done with Moutinho!

This is the exact post I never got around to writing! Totally agree.

Although I do think Capoue, once fit, can be the player Huddlestone would have become if injuries hadn't halted his development around 23.

Paulinho, I still don't get what does.
Holtby, I think will be the midfield version of Dawson, a lot to admire in attitude and very good at a few things but lacking in other areas meaning he is just a squad player. Hope I'm wrong though.

 

[Cochise]

There will always be an opportunity cost with playing either of the two formations i.e. three in midfield or two in midfield. What TS is trying to do is have a combination of both through transitioning when defending and when attacking. So its not and never has been as simple as having two in midfield. I think its tiredness that impacted on our tactics failing and not the tactics themselves.

If you have tactics but the players are unable to implement those tactics (primarily due to tiredness) how can anyone blame TS? Its not like TS has had an opportunity to change the personnel due to injuries.


Arsenal yesterday were much fresher, they were able to change personnel and bring in fresher players. They were far more energetic and vibrant so to speak.

I agree with you about the transitional play and switching formations, but in our current form we ask a lot from our players. A few examples:

1) Against UTD Evans was able to carry the ball forward whilst Ade and Soldado rested creating a 3v2 against our midfield.
2) Against Arsenal their general numbers and off the ball movement was too hard to track with just Bentaleb and Dembele.
3) Against Southampton both midfielders pushed up only for Llalana to float into the space between midfield and attack.

In all of those situations players were spaced out in a 442. If we ask one of the strikers to drop deep to sit in the #10 slot when defending, they may be required to track a player even deeper but will still fill in a hole in our midfield through which the ball cannot be passed. The problem of course is that in a counter attacking setup like this, you require your strikers to be in the right place for when the opponents attack breaks down. If we have just one striker left isolated then countering is impossible.

The reason I prefer the 433 is that although we lose some of our direct goal threat the positioning of the players allows for a more solid defensive shape. We aren't expecting players to be busting a gut all the time to cover the holes in the system because our two strikers are awaiting a quick out ball. The personel aren't so much an issue as the shape, IMO it's about having players in the best possible positions as often as possible which is what I was trying to get at with my earlier post. When we went to 433 more players became involved with play yet they didn't have to exert themselves to do so. Chadli for all his haters showed himself adept at coming inside and forcing Sagna to follow him before passing into the space left behind for Rose to exploit. We did this on the other flank with Walker too, showing a greater variance in our approach play as opposed the the Wonky where more attacks come from our right side.

I know it sounds like im talking AVB's approach up, but the system was right in many respects. His implementation of it was questionable as the players didn't seem to understand it, which for me was a coaching issue. From the looks of things atm TS has his strikers conserving energy for our counters which is leaving us 4v5 in the middle (both opposition fullbacks bombing forward) and we look vulnerable. Arsenal make the most of this because the striker works the entire back line with the midfielders moving into the space left behind, you cannot afford to be outnumbered by a team like that.

3 in midfield can work fine in the approach play and create a goal threat so long as there is support around the front man when the ball is played into the box. If we can solve that problem, then a 433 is viable for this group of players. Last night showed how poor we were in possession, with 0 penetration going forward and the ball always ending back up at Lloris for the long kick out which is not going to ever be a reliable form of attack.