Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Bishop]

Your getting two things mixed up here
That throw in was passive
We were never passive under Ange or in reality most managers
Most try and impose their style on the opposition. Our current manager doesn’t

Broooo you're living in a fantasy world. These are your own words.

17 Sep 2024
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#4,417
braineclipse said:
Yeah, we saw the game very differently.

For sure they defended really well, as should be expected of them. But they worked really hard for that. Were forced into playing long balls quite a bit. Wasted time rather than going for a goal at 0-0. For sure tired for all the effort they had to put into that defending.

We needed a moment. Either them making a mistake or a moment of brilliance from one of ours. That didn't come for us, but came for them.

We've seen what easy games for them have looked like against us in the past. For me this was not one of them.
Click to expand...
You can’t get moments if you don’t take risks. You don’t take risks of your passive. We were passive even if we did the basics quite well

Maybe
But that wasn’t the issue today
it was every one being brick and passive
We didn t press and the High line wasnt really happenin

No chance
He needs pace to play his football
It’s passive and same as what they have today
They signed a CB slower than their keeper
You can’t create energy and pace

You've literally forgotten what the football was actually like. As I said you've created a fantasy in your head divorced from the reality. Here are some quotes from others.

saying it on the telly ..were too passive..no fight after being beat thursday.

Lots of panic and meltdown but to come away from a really poor performance only 1-0 down is decent. They’ve been very good at home and on a good run. But we’re more than capable of turning it around.

For all the talk of Spurs being too attacking/open/naive, the thing that's killed us against Liverpool, Villa and now in this game is being too passive. Ange turned things down a notch to deal with the injuries, now we've gotta turn it back on sharpish. We're at our best when there's energy to our game; high press, quick passing. Ange isn't a pragmatic manager and we shouldn't be a pragmatic team. I'd rather lose 5-4 than sit through a brick 1-0 like that.

I can only see one winner here; our luck won't hold out for the second half.

I just wish one of our "talents" would actually do something clever and make a goal happen, they are so passive

That's just a short sample specifically in the word passive. If I looked for the just the theme of being passive I'd be here all day posting quotes.

As I said the reality is, attacking coach or defensive coach it doesn't matter. These players we have will play passively.

Now that's not to excuse Frank for his crap approach yesterday but you need accept reality, attacking or no attacking intent this isn't a great side, this isn't a top 4 side. Your expectations need a reset.

 

[Grays_1890]

You could make an argument that 8 sides in the PL have a better balanced squad than us, we are par for how bad our planning and build has been.
Whoever the next gaffer is has to deal with the same

 

[Bishop]

What worries me about Frank is what appears to be a reluctance to play forward thinking midfielders.
Maybe it's their age, although none of them are exactly inexperienced, but it baffles me how few minutes Sarr, Bergvall and gray are getting.
Three players who when they receive the ball their instincts are to go forward.
Richie and kudus cannot do it all on their own.

He doesn't think they are good enough, he might not be wrong.

 

[glasgowspur]

He doesn't think they are good enough, he might not be wrong.

What he's doing just now isn't good enough, try something else.
I may be wrong but have we only won three games when we have started both Bentancur and Palhinha?
And two of them were against Leeds and Everton.

 

[Bishop]

I think the Palhinha signing has been the most intriguing when it comes to tactics. We bought a specialist holding midfielder surely knowing that he offers less to his game in an attacking game. So when you're at BM, Palhinha is extremely useful as you bring him off the bench and you close games out. That is what a top of the table club need. However, when you bring him in as a first choice player in a top 8 club you shine a light on the other areas of his game. He's not keeping that ball for a few seconds in tight spaces when there's 2 players on him. He's not shifting the ball in his first touch so it is out of reach of the incoming player. He's not playing a one touch pass and then moving to get it back a second or two later to create space.

I guess the point I'm making is that I read for 2 years that the missing link in our midfield was a "proper number 6". A guy with smarts and leadership that would unite our midfield and make it stronger. A player, unlike Bissouma, who plays with his head and not his heart. Unfortunately, we now see the real truth of what is happening. Bentancur can't be happy that because of Pahinha's very natural deficiencies he is becoming the spacegoat as it's shone a light on his own post-injury deficiencies. Would it be controversial to say that a Palhinha / Bissouma partnership would be more aggressive and would be driving us forward better? That is what prime Biss does.

I'm totally in agreement with lots of posters on here. We need to get back to basics. We need left and right footed full-backs balancing the wide areas. It needs to be Porro or Spence and we need another leftie left back to cover Udogie. In the same way in the middle, it should be Palhinha or Bents or Frank needs to give Bents completely different instructions. We need Kulu back preferably with Xavi and Kudus in a 3. We need big Dom back to lead our line. 2 attacking full-backs, 3 AMs and Dom coming at you with a box to box 8 as the overload. It really isn't as difficult as Frank is making it.

Getting a DM wasn't the wrong approach, but there is an argument that Palhinha isn't the right guy, but I'd argue we knew his limitations before we signed him. It's the reason some people wanted Wharton instead, or some like myself leaned towards an Ederson.

Football is ultimately about balance and while Palhinha is a fantastic pure destroyer he is lacking in a possession sense which means to get the balance you have to over compensate with the player next to him. We haven't done that, especially when we play Bentancur who is a shadow of what he once was and is neither a top defensive player nor has he got any progressive gameplay. Instead it's just means we have two static midfielders who offer very little on the ball.

I'm predictable and repetitive but it's really simple and obvious for me. I think we need a progressive CM, I said two years ago, I said it a year ago and I'll probably say it next year too. Until we address this issue, a destroyer like Palhinha will always present as many problems as he solves.

 

[Grays_1890]

Broooo you're living in a fantasy world. These are your own words.





You've literally forgotten what the football was actually like. As I said you've created a fantasy in your head divorced from the reality. Here are some quotes from others.






That's just a short sample specifically in the word passive. If I looked for the just the theme of being passive I'd be here all day posting quotes.

As I said the reality is, attacking coach or defensive coach it doesn't matter. These players we have will play passively.

Now that's not to excuse Frank for his crap approach yesterday but you need accept reality, attacking or no attacking intent this isn't a great side, this isn't a top 4 side. Your expectations need a reset.

I think people take a much too simplistic view on football.

We could stack the team yesterday with Tel, Xavi and Muani in there and not withstanding their lack of any record in the PL in an attacking sense we would have lost but done so with abit more swagger?

In Maddison, Deki and Solanke and not replacing Son strategically (again) we have a loss of 49 goals from last season which is replaced by players who don't anywhere in any time in football have a record of scoring anything in a season bar Muani and Kudus but even Kudus is not a goal scorer

We could play on the front foot, yes, absolutely and we could lose with more style to appease people on the eye test

But this current first team available is frankly dire and if we are being honest its not in the top 7 of what others have available (two ironically are below us currently)

I am ok getting rid of Frank to appease those that want more, but lets be right here, any new manager has the same issues as Frank and those that came before him, my eyes have opened to that recently, the assembly of this squad is a shocker and the chickens are coming home to say they told us so.

People expecting Glasner to come in and play Mozart on a fisher price my first piano, way to set someone up in future for failure

 

[Bishop]

What he's doing just now isn't good enough, try something else.
I may be wrong but have we only won three games when we have started both Bentancur and Palhinha?
And two of them were against Leeds and Everton.

Me personally I'd play an inverted triangle with Palhina a sole sitter with Xavi and Sarr either side and in front of him. Those two positions could be rotated between the likes of Bergvall, Gray and even Bentancur and we see what works. That's where is disagree with the approach.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Haha now do Jose and Poch

Did Poch earlier

This is Poch

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Jose orders it cooked every way and blames the chef for the ones that are cooked wrong

 

[DaveT316]

That's a ridiculous excuse. Ange took over from us being rubbish for ages and had us top of the league within a couple of months. And this squad is much better, Ange would have loved to of had Kudus, Simons and Muani in his attacking line up. And sorry to say I'd rather watch an Ange team with those three players added to it than whatever this is meant to be, not to mention Frank has actually had our first choice back 5 all season....

I’m certainly not suggesting it’s an excuse. It’s potentially a (partial) explanation. Which is different.

The players aren’t robots and will no doubt remember last season very well and I’m sure will have been impacted by week after week of defeat in the league. I get that’s rather casting to one side the one rather large thing they DID achieve last year.

Anyway, it was just to look at little deeper at the cause of such a meek performance when we went behind than simply ascribe it to Frank and how he set us up, which for clarity, I do believe impacted us significantly.

 

[DubSpur]

He doesn't think they are good enough, he might not be wrong.

Sarr was probably our best player in the first few games and then suddenly was dropped and not had a proper look in since.
I'd rather play the younger players and give it a go then have to suffer through a season of this brick that we've had to watch so far.
Maybe they aren't good enough, but playing them gives them the chance to develop. We're not doing anything this season anyway so might as well start trying to develop for the future and see if any of those players can fit the roles that we sorely need filled.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think people take a much too simplistic view on football.

We could stack the team yesterday with Tel, Xavi and Muani in there and not withstanding their lack of any record in the PL in an attacking sense we would have lost but done so with abit more swagger?

In Maddison, Deki and Solanke and not replacing Son strategically (again) we have a loss of 49 goals from last season which is replaced by players who don't anywhere in any time in football have a record of scoring anything in a season bar Muani and Kudus but even Kudus is not a goal scorer

We could play on the front foot, yes, absolutely and we could lose with more style to appease people on the eye test

But this current first team available is frankly dire and if we are being honest its not in the top 7 of what others have available (two ironically are below us currently)

I am ok getting rid of Frank to appease those that want more, but lets be right here, any new manager has the same issues as Frank and those that came before him, my eyes have opened to that recently, the assembly of this squad is a shocker and the chickens are coming home to say they told us so.

People expecting Glasner to come in and play Mozart on a fisher price my first piano, way to set someone up in future for failure

It’s not about who is playing in attack
It’s about how were trying to get the ball to them and how to use them
It’s speculative punts rather than planned passing moves
If the method was creating chances for players to miss I’d get it. It’s not.
Reminds me of my mates argument that players dint pass to richy because he loses the ball… I mean if that’s true then the player not passing should be dropped and fined (of course it ain’t true)
But you tend to not attack well when you play 8 defensive players
Arsenal scored 4 goals yesterday with no recognised striker… but a plan and an attacking method which had variety in style and used the middle of the pitch too (the only time I recall us attacking through the middle was VDVs run vs Copenhagen). And yes they have better players but they actually have an attacking plan

 

[Muttley]

Getting a DM wasn't the wrong approach, but there is an argument that Palhinha isn't the right guy, but I'd argue we knew his limitations before we signed him. It's the reason some people wanted Wharton instead, or some like myself leaned towards an Ederson.

Football is ultimately about balance and while Palhinha is a fantastic pure destroyer he is lacking in a possession sense which means to get the balance you have to over compensate with the player next to him. We haven't done that, especially when we play Bentancur who is a shadow of what he once was and is neither a top defensive player nor has he got any progressive gameplay. Instead it's just means we have two static midfielders who offer very little on the ball.

I'm predictable and repetitive but it's really simple and obvious for me. I think we need a progressive CM, I said two years ago, I said it a year ago and I'll probably say it next year too. Until we address this issue, a destroyer like Palhinha will always present as many problems as he solves.

Exactly. Our benchmark partnership in the last 20 years has been the brief Wanyama / Dembele partnership. On paper, it was quite simple. Wanyama was the destroying, holding midfielder and Dembele was the classy, ball player that could progress the ball through the thirds. In reality it was nothing like that. Wanyama drove that ball forward as much as any centre midfielder and especially Moussa. Big Vic was like Kante or Caicedo in my opinion. That Vic / Moussa partnership was the best I've seen in recent decades. Better than that Parker / Modric one even because Parker was more in the mould of Palhinha at the age we got him.

Even with Vic and Moussa, it only worked so well because of the smarts of Dele and Eriksen knowing that Sonny always had defensive deficiencies. Ditto with Modric / Parker who had Van der Vaart knowing when to be in there with them and when to be up with Adebayor or Defoe.

It's always the sum of the parts that need to add up.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sarr was probably our best player in the first few games and then suddenly was dropped and not had a proper look in since.
I'd rather play the younger players and give it a go then have to suffer through a season of this brick that we've had to watch so far.
Maybe they aren't good enough, but playing them gives them the chance to develop. We're not doing anything this season anyway so might as well start trying to develop for the future and see if any of those players can fit the roles that we sorely need filled.

We have the worst record now in the league for not playing HG players
This is also the club that has won several youth cups and done extremely well at youth level
I believe the issue is that managers at Italy prioritise players that the club has spent money on an doesn’t really check in enough or value players loans

 

[Muttley]

Sarr was probably our best player in the first few games and then suddenly was dropped and not had a proper look in since.
I'd rather play the younger players and give it a go then have to suffer through a season of this brick that we've had to watch so far.
Maybe they aren't good enough, but playing them gives them the chance to develop. We're not doing anything this season anyway so might as well start trying to develop for the future and see if any of those players can fit the roles that we sorely need filled.

Wasn't he operating as a 10 in those games ahead of 2 centre mids?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Exactly. Our benchmark partnership in the last 20 years has been the brief Wanyama / Dembele partnership. On paper, it was quite simple. Wanyama was the destroying, holding midfielder and Dembele was the classy, ball player that could progress the ball through the thirds. In reality it was nothing like that. Wanyama drove that ball forward as much as any centre midfielder and especially Moussa. Big Vic was like Kante or Caicedo in my opinion. That Vic / Moussa partnership was the best I've seen in recent decades. Better than that Parker / Modric one even because Parker was more in the mould of Palhinha at the age we got him.

Even with Vic and Moussa, it only worked so well because of the smarts of Dele and Eriksen knowing that Sonny always had defensive deficiencies. Ditto with Modric / Parker who had Van der Vaart knowing when to be in there with them and when to be up with Adebayor or Defoe.

It's always the sum of the parts that need to add up.

It had balance
The players did the dirty work as well as the nice stuff
We had players gambling with runs because they knew players would try to find them
We had players dropping in to cover each other too
Intelligent players being allowed to do intelligent things

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Wasn't he operating as a 10 in those games ahead of 2 centre mids?

Not really a ten though but in front of the 2 holding players

 

[Muttley]

We have the worst record now in the league for not playing HG players
This is also the club that has won several youth cups and done extremely well at youth level
I believe the issue is that managers at Italy prioritise players that the club has spent money on an doesn’t really check in enough or value players loans

I thought we had hired Andy Scoulding to be the bridge between our loan players and the club, working with Lange and our first team manager to get the whole model working. Isn't it like the role Frank had a few years ago.

I agree with you. Something is not working. Apart from a missing left back in the squad, I just see another bloated squad with no space for these guys to get in. I don't see first team players operating so fantastically vindicating why a youngster isn't filling a squad role.

I also fear another squad overhaul rather than the quality over quantity model. I'd still rather us just buy 2 or 3 top quality players.

 

[harr1984]

I’m certainly not suggesting it’s an excuse. It’s potentially a (partial) explanation. Which is different.

The players aren’t robots and will no doubt remember last season very well and I’m sure will have been impacted by week after week of defeat in the league. I get that’s rather casting to one side the one rather large thing they DID achieve last year.

Anyway, it was just to look at little deeper at the cause of such a meek performance when we went behind than simply ascribe it to Frank and how he set us up, which for clarity, I do believe impacted us significantly.

This isn't just about yesterday's performance, the football has been brick most of the season. Yesterday's performance didn't actually affect me much because regardless of manager we go there and bend over. What does bother me is his consistent negative setup and how we look to go forward with the football...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

this team beat city and had 12 shots … what’s changed?
All were available and played some part yesterday

 

[Bishop]

I think people take a much too simplistic view on football.

We could stack the team yesterday with Tel, Xavi and Muani in there and not withstanding their lack of any record in the PL in an attacking sense we would have lost but done so with abit more swagger?

In Maddison, Deki and Solanke and not replacing Son strategically (again) we have a loss of 49 goals from last season which is replaced by players who don't anywhere in any time in football have a record of scoring anything in a season bar Muani and Kudus but even Kudus is not a goal scorer

We could play on the front foot, yes, absolutely and we could lose with more style to appease people on the eye test

But this current first team available is frankly dire and if we are being honest its not in the top 7 of what others have available (two ironically are below us currently)

I am ok getting rid of Frank to appease those that want more, but lets be right here, any new manager has the same issues as Frank and those that came before him, my eyes have opened to that recently, the assembly of this squad is a shocker and the chickens are coming home to say they told us so.

People expecting Glasner to come in and play Mozart on a fisher price my first piano, way to set someone up in future for failure

We are now quite aligned in our views about this squad. I think I was at this point a little earlier than you were but it's the same truth ultimately.


Like you I have no special affinity to Frank, but I think he's got some decent attributes that if given the chance can be successful here. But no coach is going to come in and fix the all problems if we aren't able to also fix the squad. I do think we've made some positives moves in that regard but for me this is going to be a years long thing, it's not going to be close to any sort of quick fix. There have been years of erosion, a couple of bricks here and there ain't fixing this.