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The "Why" thread

thfcsteff said:
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I disagree. It feels irrelevant to me, just like what happens or doesn't when I die. I think on a personal level, defining 'why' is far more important...

(In the spirit of debate - I think this has the makings of a good one 😉)
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You were "dead" for billions of years before you were born. What happened then?
Energy can't be destroyed (apart from in a blackhole maybe) so you were something else. Just your atoms weren't arranged in a way that your brain currently is. The brain creates thought and meaning. When that goes. It's gone. Your atoms and energy will become a part of something else.
 
Lilbaz said:
You were "dead" for billions of years before you were born. What happened then?
Energy can't be destroyed (apart from in a blackhole maybe) so you were something else. Just your atoms weren't arranged in a way that your brain currently is. The brain creates thought and meaning. When that goes. It's gone. Your atoms and energy will become a part of something else.
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I am never sure when reading your replies whether you are directly replying to what I said in a post, or simply continuing the discussion.

If continuing the discussion, I certainly wouldn't disagree with the theory, albeit I don't know; none of us do for sure.

If replying to me directly, your first line is an example of everything I was saying (and I'll answer it here). I don't know. I have no idea what I was, what my energy was, what my electrical currency interacted with, where or how. Not a clue. Not a sniff of a clue.
I have no idea what happens to my atoms, energy, electricity. I can speculate based on my own experiences of what I perceive/have perceived to be 'that', however my point stands.
I don't know.
No-one really does.
And for me, I'd rather spend my time here trying to learn about more of the things directly around me of which I am ignorant.

You might well be 'right'...Brian Cox might well be 'right'...but I am personally not bothered whatsoever by that direction of mental time-spent.
There are bees out there which help do so much for our environment, yet billions of people know fudge all about them. Do we know the true extent of how Cordyceps might be helpfulo to humankind? As we try and figure out whether there's a VIP lounge or another 'skin' when we die, do we know even 5% of how the living creatures in the world around us work? If I get to 25% awareness of those relationships it will be marvelous, and I have always tried to absorb as much as possible of that sort of knowledge.
@Nutter-Naylor posted a great quote from the Dalai Lama earlier in this thread; I'd like to repeat it because I think it is wonderful.
""Man surprised me most about humanity.Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived"
 
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thfcsteff said:
I am never sure when reading your replies whether you are directly replying to what I said in a post, or simply continuing the discussion.

If continuing the discussion, I certainly wouldn't disagree with the theory, albeit I don't know; none of us do for sure.

If replying to me directly, your first line is an example of everything I was saying (and I'll answer it here). I don't know. I have no idea what I was, what my energy was, what my electrical currency interacted with, where or how. Not a clue. Not a sniff of a clue.
I have no idea what happens to my atoms, energy, electricity. I can speculate based on my own experiences of what I perceive/have perceived to be 'that', however my point stands.
I don't know.
No-one really does.
And for me, I'd rather spend my time here trying to learn about more of the things directly around me of which I am ignorant.

You might well be 'right'...Brian Cox might well be 'right'...but I am personally not bothered whatsoever by that direction of mental time-spent.
There are bees out there which help do so much for our environment, yet billions of people know fudge all about them. Do we know the true extent of how Cordyceps might be helpfulo to humankind? As we try and figure out whether there's a VIP lounge or another 'skin' when we die, do we know even 5% of how the living creatures in the world around us work? If I get to 25% awareness of those relationships it will be marvelous, and I have always tried to absorb as much as possible of that sort of knowledge.
@Nutter-Naylor posted a great quote from the Dalai Lama earlier in this thread; I'd like to repeat it because I think it is wonderful.
""Man surprised me most about humanity.Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived"
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Continuing discussion. It's not a private chat.

.
 
Lilbaz said:
Continuing discussion. It's not a private chat.
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No it isn't. But your reply could equally have been contrued as you "declaring" directly to me. I was clarifying that specific point. If discussing as a theory, great. If you're 'telling' me, that becomes a different thing...anyway...onwards...
 
thfcsteff said:
No it isn't. But your reply could equally have been contrued as you "declaring" directly to me. I was clarifying that specific point. If discussing as a theory, great. If you're 'telling' me, that becomes a different thing...anyway...onwards...
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You raised a point about dying. I shared my thoughts. That's it.

I tinkled you off at some point. Ok. I'm sorry. I'll share my thoughts. Might regret them when i sober up but i try not to be personal.

Not saying you were.
 
Lilbaz said:
You raised a point about dying. I shared my thoughts. That's it.

I tinkled you off at some point. Ok. I'm sorry. I'll share my thoughts. Might regret them when i sober up but i try not to be personal.

Not saying you were.
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All good, and no, you didn't tinkle me off, I just wanted to clarify as we all 'write' differently and all speak differently. I enjoy your opinions and views. Very interested in your thoughts and (as ever) appreciate the conversation...BTW, pour me one please, neat!!!!!
 
monkeybarry said:
That's exactly my point, and is my underlying response to @SissokoWasGood (BoL) & @thfcsteff (both brilliant replies - thank you both).

In the information age we all have access to those skills in our pocket.
It's a choice not to do so - but all life choices come down to values and, more pertinently, what we are prepared to lose; that can loss of face, loss of social circles, loss of argument etc etc.

All of those people have made a choice to continue on their path and a choice not to explore an alternative, despite having the tools to do so. To do so is hard - it's hard and scary to be vulnerable and challenge one self; but to not do so makes you a coward.

We can point to upbringing, education, social media algorithms all we want - but they are all just noise and excuses for the decisions we make, and we all make them.
(Would any of us give up enough of our comfortable western lives created by the crimes of empire to help people poorer countries have similar living standards? No, we wouldn't. We'll make changes and reductions, but no one would go far enough)

Those people have made value judgements and have to own them. If you are on a far right rally you either know what it means and agree with it and promote it, or you haven't bothered to understand it but you are still promoting it for a reason positive to your life.
I'd argue the latter is worse than the former; at least the former is truthful.
Both require full ownership, and there are excuses based on circumstances, only choices based upon circumstances.
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This is possibly one of the most well written posts I've read on here. And I feel like it's a good discussion on the Why.

Not just politics. Human behaviour.

How much of what we do is based on anything other than our neurological lottery and our environmental lottery?

With the strength of the noise these days, and some people just being unlucky on comprehension and education, who is to blame?

Do we know our own privilege?

Where's the nature, where's the nurture?
 
LutonSpurs said:
This is possibly one of the most well written posts I've read on here. And I feel like it's a good discussion on the Why.

Not just politics. Human behaviour.

How much of what we do is based on anything other than our neurological lottery and our environmental lottery?

With the strength of the noise these days, and some people just being unlucky on comprehension and education, who is to blame?

Do we know our own privilege?

Where's the nature, where's the nurture?
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I know I have banged the drum about this several times, much to some derision, but I really do look at society through much of the lens of John Carnochan who headed up the crime force in Glasgow and noticed a corelation between valentines day and the drop off in knife crime on that day.
1779019182736.png

So they literally changed the rhetoric round the city and the messaging from "you have no future, you are scum, you are going to end up like you dad" to "you have hope, you are loved, you can be anything you want" and it was a major reason crime including serious knife crime nearly fell off the map completely.

The reason I mention it is I am a firm believer that in the case of say South London violence there is a continuous circle of life for kids who are encouraged into the arms of gangs and the bosom of organised crime because all they hear from a young age is "you won't amount to anything" that IMO just continues the cycle and it remains unbroken, kids are not born to be killers, they are a product of their own society and others outside their society telling them what they can and can't be. You see it on here, the total lack of empathy when discussing certain topics around social impact, be it poverty or the like, there is a massive punching down from people who deem themselves higher up on the money and career ladder which means things like free school meals are an issue.

I grew up in a safe and loving environment and was motivated by people who were motivated themselves and its not without the fact that options for my parents and myself were easier than they are for others in society being a white man, people don't want to face up to those realities and yes I have put in hard work, but I have seen it in friends and I have sat around tables in professional settings and I have seen it first hand.

Thats why, and I don't want to drone on about the rally on this thread, but thats why that rally yesterday is problematic to me, the idea that anyone can really stand in the capital of London as a white person and act like they have it harder than anyone else on this planet is frankly laughable

I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable in this conversation mate, but even reading some of the sh1t you have had to put up with on this Forum because of your ethnicity is something I have never had on here and never would, let alone what happens on the street, that should tell people everything they need to know about the subject

The question people should be asking is not why but how they can help improve the society they live in for the 4 score and 10 they are here
 
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MartyFunkhouser said:
I know I have banged the drum about this several times, much to some derision, but I really do look at society through much of the lens of John Carnochan who headed up the crime force in Glasgow and noticed a corelation between valentines day and the drop off in knife crime on that day.
View attachment 22363

So they literally changed the rhetoric round the city and the messaging from "you have no future, you are scum, you are going to end up like you dad" to "you have hope, you are loved, you can be anything you want" and it was a major reason crime including serious knife crime nearly fell off the map completely.

The reason I mention it is I am a firm believer that in the case of say South London violence there is a continuous circle of life for kids who are encouraged into the arms of gangs and the bosom of organised crime because all they hear from a young age is "you won't amount to anything" that IMO just continues the cycle and it remains unbroken, kids are not born to be killers, they are a product of their own society and others outside their society telling them what they can and can't be. You see it on here, the total lack of empathy when discussing certain topics around social impact, be it poverty or the like, there is a massive punching down from people who deem themselves higher up on the money and career ladder which means things like free school meals are an issue.

I grew up in a safe and loving environment and was motivated by people who were motivated themselves and its not without the fact that options for my parents and myself were easier than they are for others in society being a white man, people don't want to face up to those realities and yes I have put in hard work, but I have seen it in friends and I have sat around tables in professional settings and I have seen it first hand.

Thats why, and I don't want to drone on about the rally on this thread, but thats why that rally yesterday is problematic to me, the idea that anyone can really stand in the capital of London as a white person and act like they have it harder than anyone else on this planet is frankly laughable

I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable in this conversation mate, but even reading some of the sh1t you have had to put up with on this thread because of your ethnicity is something I have never had on here and never would, let alone what happens on the street, that should tell people everything they need to know about the subject
Click to expand...

The Glasgow anecdote is gold dust
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
I know I have banged the drum about this several times, much to some derision, but I really do look at society through much of the lens of John Carnochan who headed up the crime force in Glasgow and noticed a corelation between valentines day and the drop off in knife crime on that day.
View attachment 22363

So they literally changed the rhetoric round the city and the messaging from "you have no future, you are scum, you are going to end up like you dad" to "you have hope, you are loved, you can be anything you want" and it was a major reason crime including serious knife crime nearly fell off the map completely.

The reason I mention it is I am a firm believer that in the case of say South London violence there is a continuous circle of life for kids who are encouraged into the arms of gangs and the bosom of organised crime because all they hear from a young age is "you won't amount to anything" that IMO just continues the cycle and it remains unbroken, kids are not born to be killers, they are a product of their own society and others outside their society telling them what they can and can't be. You see it on here, the total lack of empathy when discussing certain topics around social impact, be it poverty or the like, there is a massive punching down from people who deem themselves higher up on the money and career ladder which means things like free school meals are an issue.

I grew up in a safe and loving environment and was motivated by people who were motivated themselves and its not without the fact that options for my parents and myself were easier than they are for others in society being a white man, people don't want to face up to those realities and yes I have put in hard work, but I have seen it in friends and I have sat around tables in professional settings and I have seen it first hand.

Thats why, and I don't want to drone on about the rally on this thread, but thats why that rally yesterday is problematic to me, the idea that anyone can really stand in the capital of London as a white person and act like they have it harder than anyone else on this planet is frankly laughable

I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable in this conversation mate, but even reading some of the sh1t you have had to put up with on this Forum because of your ethnicity is something I have never had on here and never would, let alone what happens on the street, that should tell people everything they need to know about the subject

The question people should be asking is not why but how they can help improve the society they live in for the 4 score and 10 they are here
Click to expand...
Imagine the potential influencers that could influence your life years back....now imagine the influencers that could impact your life these days. And then imagine how anyone growing up can access them.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Its scary mate. YT, twitter and Instagram have basically monetised hate....
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I'm kinda suggesting that crime officer is right to look at things differently, and that could lead to new approaches, BUT when was that? A new beast has entered stage left ....all those human links/interactions/relationships you could study/assess/monitor are replaced 10X by digital connections all with an easy add-on of as much secrecy or behind the scenes cover a person chooses.

So hard to devise interventions/support/plans in that landscape
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I'm kinda suggesting that crime officer is right to look at things differently, and that could lead to new approaches, BUT when was that? A new beast has entered stage left ....all those human links/interactions/relationships you could study/assess/monitor are replaced 10X by digital connections all with an easy add-on of as much secrecy or behind the scenes cover a person chooses.

So hard to devise interventions/support/plans in that landscape
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Ahhh yeh for sure, was around 2005 to 2019 all told.

I totally agree with you BTW, my point is its even harder when social media is a FT job for some who are monotised for their hate. Mates the waters even harder to navigate
 
We've lost the narrative. People are closeted in their noisy echo chambers. Enlightenment is not a goal. Excess is. SMEs have no value anymore for a lot of soicety.

Are we in a dystopia? Getting there.
 
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