The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[MartyFunkhouser]

When Frank was sacked we had a better ppg than last season so the point in bold can be spun either way, not that it matters. Last season was the worst league performance in our history, if we follow that up with something worse that doesn't change anything in the grand scheme of things. Frank was rightly sacked, as should any manager that has us in this sort of position.

Yes our problems do stretch back to the end of the Poch era - truth be told I'm not sure any of our teams since than have been any better than what we have now, take both Son & Kane out of Mourinho or Conte teams and we're likely deep in the bottom half with the players we had once we sold off the other top players from that team. A solid lesson in how not to approach transfers & squad building over an extended period.

I am a broken record with it but the squad building at our club is horrific, its been compounded with this scatter gun approach to buying youth and compounded by injuries. Was Sat having a beer Sunday with a mate and he said "there isn't one player at this club that I care about, I get excited about seeing on a Saturday or makes me think he carries an identity of the club" and I couldn't agree. There isn't one player in my mind where you look at and think "they care" unfortunately I think comes from the existing culture where the clubs not being respected by players aka there is no culture.

The club looks rotten and rudderless from top to bottom, dare I say we need another rebuild but my GHod do we now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And yet was awfully upset on a number of occasions after PL games, despite having "nothing to play for." Here's one example from mid-March.

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Never bought it. He was re-writing history to take the bad look off the league season in a desperate attempt to save himself.

He's hardly going to say "I really don't care about the league, we're just going for the Cup" while the season is still going on is he?

 

[thfcsteff]

Said this many times. It's the quality vs quantity argument. The biggest root cause to why we find ourselves where we are.

WE SIGN WAY TOO MANY PLAYERS.

It pre-dates even Hitchen but you can definitely see patterns since 2017 of Spurs buying 5-10 players every single year. We stretch our budget thin and we try to solve for too many positions in one go. Then those players turn out to be not good enough and then we spend another cycle offloading them. It is your classic rinse, repeat model.

When this changes, my optimism will start growing again.

When you think about it, the conversations have already started about Gallagher being more of the same. Admittedly, we went for Semenyo so it's not as if we didn't try for quality. What we got though was another warm body.

In fairness we either took the Nkoudou Njie route or signed no-one. I have long gone on about the Mane and Winaldjum summer as the one which really cost us a title, but 2018 was also massive, when Poch essentially said enough of this bargain basement brick, I'd rather have no-one than that (which was the right thing to do).

 

[Mikey10]

He's hardly going to say "I really don't care about the league, we're just going for the Cup" while the season is still going on is he?

Were it true that he was only going for the cup (and it’s quite obviously b ollocks, up there with his “I was cupping my ear to hear the fans better”; he was a top-notch gaslighter tbf) then I’m sure the fans who spent their money travelling the length and breadth of the country to support the team in the PL would have been thrilled to hear he’d written off all the games in the second half of the season without letting anyone know.

Not that it’s true. Amazes me that there are folks who swallowed it - Ange’s equivalent of double secret probation.

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[Robspur12]

We kind of did. If you think we were playing the same gung-ho attacking football last season that we were the season before then we were seeing different things. As the season went on our football became less and less expansive. After the wins against Brentford and Man Utd, we were clearly prioritising the Europa and resting our better players where possible, I also think that the players that did play in the league games were playing within themselves, saving themselves for the Cup games as there was nothing to play for in the league.

I think we have to agree to disagree. What I saw were Full backs pushing forwards and in field leaving spaces behind, a high line but no VDV. There may have been slight tweaks here and there but not enough to say we played differently. And it was very different to how we played in the EL. There were lots of comments about that on here at the time.

 

[Lemonade Money]

In fairness we either took the Nkoudou Njie route or signed no-one. I have long gone on about the Mane and Winaldjum summer as the one which really cost us a title, but 2018 was also massive, when Poch essentially said enough of this bargain basement brick, I'd rather have no-one than that (which was the right thing to do).

I'd rather he'd started with youth again rather than be stubborn.

 

[tommysvr]

So why didn't he do that for the rest of the games? It was as if he had given up on the league?

I agree, that’s one of the questions I want to see put to him. I think he would have kept his job if we’ve won 3/4/5 more league games. Of course, that in itself is ridiculous because that might have got us to 12th or 13th at best. What fudging difference would that make??

 

[Muttley]

In fairness we either took the Nkoudou Njie route or signed no-one. I have long gone on about the Mane and Winaldjum summer as the one which really cost us a title, but 2018 was also massive, when Poch essentially said enough of this bargain basement brick, I'd rather have no-one than that (which was the right thing to do).

Yeah, 2018 was the corner case in a long history of quantity buying. It was definitely a manager going on strike at his chairman and recruitment team. Let's not forget the other angle as well. A chairman and recruitment team that thought it was OK to keep making late, late purchases disrupting every start to Poch's seasons. What a mess.

Missing out on Mane and Wijnaldum was massive (2016?). So was the summer of 2017 when we lost Walker and bought about 6 or 7 dross players. that is when the decline started in my mind. Dele's soft tissue history is also a direct consequence of our purchasing. People always forget that angle.

 

[Robspur12]

I agree, that’s one of the questions I want to see put to him. I think he would have kept his job if we’ve won 3/4/5 more league games. Of course, that in itself is ridiculous because that might have got us to 12th or 13th at best. What fudging difference would that make??

I think it would have been more about showing that he could cope with a League campaign alongside a cup run. The latter is great I'm not denying but we've shown over the last 2 seasons that we have not been able to turn that form into a decent form in the league. And we may still pay the ultimate price.

Not convinced by Igor Tudor if I'm honest. Hopefully he will prove me wrong.

 

[Mikey10]

Not convinced by Igor Tudor if I'm honest. Hopefully he will prove me wrong.

Me neither. He needs a win tomorrow night or there will be a big call to make. At the minute he’s a new manager without any bounce.

 

[Bishop]

I agree, that’s one of the questions I want to see put to him. I think he would have kept his job if we’ve won 3/4/5 more league games. Of course, that in itself is ridiculous because that might have got us to 12th or 13th at best. What fudging difference would that make??

It would have shown his flexibity in the bread and butter competition. It would have given people like myself who wanted him to succeed but were angered by his stubborness something to hold on to, something cite as a reason to give him another go. I said in the latter stages of the season I didn't care so much about the wins or the losses or even potentially winning the EL, I just wanted to see him demonstrate some flexibility, to see him adjust to his present circumstances. If I could have just seen that I would have been happy to see him go for another season.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I agree, that’s one of the questions I want to see put to him. I think he would have kept his job if we’ve won 3/4/5 more league games. Of course, that in itself is ridiculous because that might have got us to 12th or 13th at best. What fudging difference would that make??

I think he did touch on this on the Overlap and in previous comments in pressers. It’s a combination of understanding that his job was to play a more proactive style of football (eg they did that under Antonio and didn’t want to do it anymore) as well his comments about if you stop asking players to be brave it stores up problems for later down the line.

I actually think Poch by comparison showed much more flexibility and pragmatism. By 2018 we would win big games with a different approach to the one we used in 2016. So I get the criticism for Ange.

Equally, every manager has their strategy. Ange’s was built on bravery. So if he wants the players to feel comfortable taking risks, he doesn’t want to alter that requirement too much because circumstances dictate. Because then what’s to stop any and all circumstances being the excuse that they don’t have to be brave in one moment or another? The fact is he did change things once the injuries hit, in terms of the defensive structure and level of pressing, but he still wanted us taking some risks. He didn’t want to throw it all out. And that’s because if we were ever going to have the opportunity to play with a fitter squad with less injuries, they still need those cultural foundations established. Otherwise the message gets lost.

And again I go back to, we hired Ange for who he was. Injuries stopped him from producing his ideal football. He didn’t have the option of showing he could succeed in a league and cup campaign last season because the league was done. So effective prioritisation to try and win a trophy (which actually worked!) was the smart play. But I don’t think this means that all things being equal in a new season, with a deeper squad, we couldn’t have competed in multiple competitions.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think he did touch on this on the Overlap and in previous comments in pressers. It’s a combination of understanding that his job was to play a more proactive style of football (eg they did that under Antonio and didn’t want to do it anymore) as well his comments about if you stop asking players to be brave it stores up problems for later down the line.

I actually think Poch by comparison showed much more flexibility and pragmatism. By 2018 we would win big games with a different approach to the one we used in 2016. So I get the criticism for Ange.

Equally, every manager has their strategy. Ange’s was built on bravery. So if he wants the players to feel comfortable taking risks, he doesn’t want to alter that requirement too much because circumstances dictate. Because then what’s to stop any and all circumstances being the excuse that they don’t have to be brave in one moment or another? The fact is he did change things once the injuries hit, in terms of the defensive structure and level of pressing, but he still wanted us taking some risks. He didn’t want to throw it all out. And that’s because if we were ever going to have the opportunity to play with a fitter squad with less injuries, they still need those cultural foundations established. Otherwise the message gets lost.

And again I go back to, we hired Ange for who he was. Injuries stopped him from producing his ideal football. He didn’t have the option of showing he could succeed in a league and cup campaign last season because the league was done. So effective prioritisation to try and win a trophy (which actually worked!) was the smart play. But I don’t think this means that all things being equal in a new season, with a deeper squad, we couldn’t have competed in multiple competitions.

Consistent on this from the get-go...

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Consistent on this from the get-go...

Yes. And I don’t quite understand why people don’t at least acknowledge this is a valid reason. I think argue the merits of it all you like (eg someone could argue: I think you can be flexible and pragmatic and still maintain a cultural foundation of being brave at all times) but I don’t think it’s fair to say he didn’t have a reason, or ‘couldn’t’ adjust. He showed in the Europa he could adjust, and he’s explained at various points why having the players listen to him on the point of bravery is important to him.

Everything he did in that second season was to establish better long term foundations for the club. As it was, the club wanted different foundations.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes. And I don’t quite understand why people don’t at least acknowledge this is a valid reason. I think argue the merits of it all you like (eg someone could argue: I think you can be flexible and pragmatic and still maintain a cultural foundation of being brave at all times) but I don’t think it’s fair to say he didn’t have a reason, or ‘couldn’t’ adjust. He showed in the Europa he could adjust, and he’s explained at various points why having the players listen to him on the point of bravery is important to him.

Everything he did in that second season was to establish better long term foundations for the club. As it was, the club wanted different foundations.

In fairness, many did not understand what he tried to do with Chelsea at home that first season. Fine margins that night. We nearly went 2-0 up fast. Maddison injury. Romero red for something some don’t seem to get. Dier’s 90th minute ‘equalizer’ VARd out for a questionable offside I am still not convinced by…yet many didn’t agree with his philosophy. Personally? I think it is because we never really appreciate people who want to dare and do (even Poch got it at the first inkling of trouble, and again, let’s not forget how many criticized The Battle of The Bridge without seeing how important it was not to let ourselves be walked over - like we often are now!!!!!

So again, in fairness, there is consistency there. I just wholeheartedly disagree with them and their read on it. Nothing became fair with him from around November last season. People say they want bravery and a philosophy and a system, yet the truth is, most aren’t prepared to ‘suffer’ for it. We ended last season with a trophy and tons of lessons hopefully learnt. The worst of the ‘suffering’ surely done, the glow of victory and a third season beckoning…but the fear of repeating mistakes versus the hope that we learnt from them was always the battle. And we chose a path.
IMO.

P.S. those wan kers did not know what foundation they wanted. We have witnessed some of the very worst upper level management/board decisions it is possible to make. Ill-timed changes with scant regard for the context around them. The Levy shift was the most massive of own goals and probably the least forgivable of all because these stupid c unts are MEANT TO TO BE BUSINESS PEOPLE! Any idiot can tell you that transference of such power and methodology requires an off-ramp of some length and time. Our lot decide they can do it after the closing of a window and the hiring of a new manager!!! If this tale ends up having the bricky ending it very well might this season, it will stand as the single worst decision the Lewis family could’ve made.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

In fairness, many did not understand what he tried to do with Chelsea at home that first season. Fine margins that night. We nearly went 2-0 up fast. Maddison injury. Romero red for something some don’t seem to get. Dier’s 90th minute ‘equalizer’ VARd out for a questionable offside I am still not convinced by…yet many didn’t agree with his philosophy. Personally? I think it is because we never really appreciate people who want to dare and do (even Poch got it at the first inkling of trouble, and again, let’s not forget how many criticized The Battle of The Bridge without seeing how important it was not to let ourselves be walked over - like we often are now!!!!!

So again, in fairness, there is consistency there. I just wholeheartedly disagree with them and their read on it. Nothing became fair with him from around November last season. People say they want bravery and a philosophy and a system, yet the truth is, most aren’t prepared to ‘suffer’ for it. We ended last season with a trophy and tons of lessons hopefully learnt. The worst of the ‘suffering’ surely done, the glow of victory and a third season beckoning…but the fear of repeating mistakes versus the hope that we learnt from them was always the battle. And we chose a path.
IMO.

P.S. those wan kers did not know what foundation they wanted. We have witnessed some of the very worst upper level management/board decisions it is possible to make. Ill-timed changes with scant regard for the context around them. The Levy shift was the most massive of own goals and probably the least forgivable of all because these stupid c unts are MEANT TO TO BE BUSINESS PEOPLE! Any idiot can tell you that transference of such power and methodology requires an off-ramp of some length and time. Our lot decide they can do it after the closing of a window and the hiring of a new manager!!! If this tale ends up having the bricky ending it very well might this season, it will stand as the single worst decision the Lewis family could’ve made.

Really agree with your last paragraph. Chickens coming home to roost indeed. To go from the parade to where we are now, it is genuinely impressive how wrong it has gone.