The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[thfcsteff]

I find it really strange how so many football fans (not just ours) dismiss trophies that are not the Premier League or the Champions League. It’s mind boggling.

To win any trophy is a magnificent achievement and takes balls as well as skill. Anyone who has played the game, even at a reasonable level, should know that. When I listen to people like Neville, Keane, Carragher, Butt, Scholes, Wright and so on (yeah I listen to Stick to Football a bit), these lads have won multiple PLs and CLs between them. Yet they have the utmost respect for anyone who wins any trophy be it a League Cup or even lower level leagues in England. That’s because winning things is bloody hard to do.

If the PL and CL are the only things worth winning and the only things that carry any weight of achievement, we’ve won 2 trophies in almost 150 years and none since 1961. It’s a nonsense and disrespectful view IMO.

Say what you want about Ange. I thought, and still think, he was very naive to say “I always win things in my second year”. I didn’t like how he binned off the league. But he won us a trophy, the second most prestigious one in Europe. That’s a hell of an achievement and etches him forever into our history.

I believe that ‘etching’ will only be allowed if it is accompanied by the line ‘but finished 17th in the league’!!!!!

 

[Bishop]

Understood.

Is there a Spurs supporter who believes the league season last season was acceptable? Do you think Postecoglu himself thought it was acceptable?

There was a clear choice available to him in February. With the league done, with injuries piling up, he made a call as to how he might be abkle to achieve something from the season. Where I think many (perhaps yourself too) are getting it wrong, is in thinking he did this lightly. he pretty much knew the gamble was going to cost him his job AND reputation. It was spectacular employment of our famed Latin phrase. He dared, he did, yet all we ever hear is what he didn’t do, how unglamorously he won the trophy, and how it was a ‘lesser’ trophy anyway.

If you’re waiting for this football club to dominate the league, I’d suggest you pray for some horrendous wealth fund to come along and buy us, because as you well know, we have not won the league since before most of us have been born, and when we DID look like we would under Poch, we never gave him quite what he needed and then many proceeded to cheer from the rafters as ‘the Winner’ was brought in and he was sacked (for a league position we’d be begging for today).

Your CL comment is telling.
I grew up adoring that trophy, from the 70s.
I always always dreamt of seeing us win it, indeed, I always felt we stood a better chance.
You want a linear ramp up; I want glory wherever we can get it, doing things (when possible) the right way.

BTW, you’ve stated your views several times on Postecoglu, and each time I get them. Do you understand mine? Do you acknowledge that there is a world where the unquantifiable energy bred by success within a group could possibly have catapulted us forward? Not looking for agreement (we won’t have that) just interested to know if you can even conceive of that possibility, or is that an intangible you refuse to acknowledge/

I do understand your view and I appreciate those thoughts. The annoying thing is i did like Ange and I really liked his attempt at football. There were just too many flaws within that system and his approach to playing it that ultimately meant I didn't think he was right guy the end, but I actually do get the intangibles feeling, I guess I just in my heart didn't feel it.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think it's not really about "don't mind losing". Nobody likes losing at that level. It's more about how much it hurts and what you're prepared to do about it. That is what diminishes. It's all about the grey space this one.

I do like the idea of having a thread soon about what are the must-haves and nice-to-haves when selecting a Spurs manager. Frank was always identified as not having a stylistic fit with the football club. That's a really obvious one. The one we've spoken about above is more subtle. It's clearly more important to me than others, as is the fear of going 4 seasons conceding over 60 goals in the PL. Another key theme is appearing on the other thread when we're comparing and contrasting people management skills and looking at what it takes to be a good leader for this next generation. What does it take to get the best out of them as good old fashioned Cloughie or Fergie style doesn't seem to work. We saw that with Jose and Dele right?

Too soon for the thread yet though. Let's have a look at Tudor first.

I don’t disagree with this because I know many players who have been through Spurs and then on to clubs that win more trophies say that it didn’t hurt enough to lose at Spurs like it should have. And I would guess the only time we’ve really gotten away from that properly was under Poch.

I just think Ange’s decision to turn that around was to give this club a feeling of actually winning something. If the players could feel it, they’d know how good that felt. And they’d feel worse knowing that every loss took them further away from experiencing that great feeling again.

But to get there, out of the rubble of last season, meant putting all eggs in that basket. Maybe we could have won the Europa anyway and not prioritised the trophy quite so much and got up another couple of places with a couple more wins. But it would have reduced our chances of getting that winning feeling.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I'm unsure myself what exactly Levy 'sensed'. But he is/was closer to it than we are, no? What we do know is that Levy sacked Ange. One might assume then, that whatever Levy sensed, or indeed knew, gave him reason(s) to make a change. (Ange, btw, is currently not employed as a football club manager. Would you therefore say that right now a whole host of people out there aren't 'sensing' him either?).

Yes, agreed. Among which, for example, a variable might be the relative strength/weakness of the 3 relegated teams each season. And if, for example, the bottom 3 last season were weaker than the bottom 3 this, then that is a very important variable because it afforded us more opportunity to focus on the Europa League. Going back a bit, another variable might be that when we finished top 4 in the Poch era, the strength of the Top4/6, and even the PL as a whole at that time, maybe wasn't quite as strong as it is now (thus, Leicester won the league). So yep, I agree with you. There there are different 'contexts' and all sorts of variables at play. Some are cited. and some are not.

I would agree that Levy should have know more than us. Indeed I am always minded to assume people in positions have power have really good reasons for making the decisions they do when I don’t know all the facts. So even though I was very Ange in, because I felt it not wise to sack him given that he didn’t lose the players and what he promised actually came to pass, I saw my way to seeing the logic in Frank.

As it turned out, it was clear that it was an utterly dreadful decision. And it looks like the players are bemused and mentally checked out of our basket case of a club, having never gotten behind the new manager. It’s also the case that the decision to sack Ange was made in January of his final season. So even though Ange’s view of ‘I’m going to salvage something from this terrible season even though the league is a lost cause’ actually came to pass, it didn’t matter to the club. They were going to do what they did anyway. And I think that was a bad decision.

As for your final point…I guess I agree? Definitely the league can be stronger or tighter in certain seasons than in others. I think Ange getting 5th post Kane was a good achievement. I think Poch having us as title contenders until we decided to stop selling or buying players was an all time phenomenal achievement, regardless of how strong the league was. And yes the other 3 teams being weaker last year allowed us to feel safer earlier. But also so did us actually starting the season quite well up until late November when the injuries started to bite.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I would say our players don't mind losing yes, and I think this has been an issue at the club for years. We recruit players that are just below the top tier and with that comes caveats not just in their ability. How many of our players historically outwork their talent? Kane, who else?

In an enviroment like ours where not being the best is acceptable, losing becoming acceptable is a short step away. If the whole club is built on scrimping why would the players brought in be any different, them think 'well I get paid regardless' is no different then the board saying 'we're brick but lets release a special edition shirt and people will buy it'.

Cup is a nice bonus, parade, photos, but determination to push on? I don't see those personalities in the squad. We can't even turn around adversity during the course of a game so I don't expect them to do so because of form trends.

Our form graph over the last 2 years shows the reality. Having a mindset of 'it's ok to lose cause we're building something' to me is as dangerous as 'the manager is brick and I don't want to play for him'. Both allow a drop in professional standards. This is why I don't understand why people say they don't care about the result if the football is good. Results in the league are the bread and butter on which the club is judged on.

The phrase 'Winning is Easy' springs to mind.

As I said in response to @Muttley I agree that historically as a club it has been too easy for our players to accept losing, and I think that culture only changed under Poch, when they realised they could actually achieve more. And I would think one of the issues this season is the players realising no matter what the do, the club will never push on under ENIC. Hence why they all feel comfortable calling them out.

But I think it’s interesting you describe the trophy as a nice bonus with a day out, as opposed to something that would allow the club to really alter its posture and act with more confidence in high pressure scenarios. As well as show the players that despite everything they went through, they still became winners and they became the players that broke the trophy drought for the club. And they experienced the winning feeling, and would have wanted more of that. I think it’s a fair argument to say you can change the culture of a club by winning things, because the players need to keep winning to feel that high again. They need to feel it’s realistic to win again. And therefore they know the pain of losing is too much to bear, because it takes them further away from that high.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think if Ange had fewer injuries he would undoubtedly do better but what is there to suggest that would be the case beyond sheer hope? Ange had a litany of injuries in his first season, that continued into his second season and would have also continued into the 3rd when you think that Kulu, Dragusin, Maddison and Solanke were already long term injured. Then look at what actually has happened injury wise under Frank and there is literally nothing to suggest Ange would have had an injury eased season.

This is where the rational thoughts versus the emotion come into play. Even looking at this season in hindsight can we can't even say "oh look how clear of injuries we were, I wish Ange would have had this time with the players." The injuries haven't abated at all, the transfers would have been lacking once again and the squad would still be undercooked for Ange's needs.

Hiring Frank doesn't mean sacking Ange was the wrong thing to do, it just means once again the leadership of this club have very little understanding about what makes a good coach for Spurs.

I actually think up until the last period of Frank’s tenure, he had injuries but also a deeper squad. Ange having Kolo Muani, being able to play actual centre backs, depth in the wing positions. I think we would have been better…simple as that.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Not to be churlish but losing did become acceptable to you in the league because of the payoff of the Europa League win. If you can feel that way, who is to say some of our players didn't and don't. Ange has more or less said himself that he was unbothered by loss after loss last season because he had the bigger prize in mind. Maybe we have some deluded players who see the CL this season as a bigger prize and don't mind losing so much as long as the CL is still in the offing?

It sounds ridiculous, but for me no more ridiculous than accepting losing game after game in the league to potentially win the EL.

But we did win the EL. And it was after a season of the players being absolutely broken and barely fit. So it might have been an audacious gamble but it actually paid off. And when has anything actually gone right for us as a club with something like that? We usually always fall at the final hurdle, or just before. This time we actually did it. And I think the players would have enjoyed that winning feeling continuing.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I've probably been the most vocal in this thread on saying Ange normalised losing. To be clear, I don't believe he is a major reason of why we are where we are. There are so many factors involved, IMO, most of which come back to the tinkle poor way that we've been run. For me, the majority of the culpability is with the board (past and present). Frank also has more responsibility than Ange as do the players. So this isn't an attempt to paint Ange as a spacegoat.

Our home form is the primary reason we are where we are IMO. We've won 2 from 14 at home this season. That record is unprecedented in the new stadium and it's been a very long time since we saw it in the old one too. The only precedent is last season when we won 2 from our last 14 home games. That creates a vibe, a feeling - call it what you want. You get used to losing and, like winning, it becomes a habit. Ange, unintentionally, ingrained a losing habit in the league at home. He bit back at fans on at least 3 occasions I can remember as well as the ear cupping at Chelsea. That created a fracture between the fans and team IMO. This season, I've been at the ground 8 times I think. I think they were booed off on every occasion bar last Sunday and City.

Strong culture gets built through actions, not words.

In the last 15 months, we've seen an unprecedented drop off from a Premier League club. From very consistent top 6 finishes to two finishes around the relegation places. We hadn't finished in the bottom 6 in almost 40 years. We'll now do it two seasons in a row from a position of when we were challenging for Europe and CL consistently.

That's a shocking drop off owing primarily to our home form. For me, Ange helped set a culture where losing in the league wasn't unacceptable (for whatever reason), he was at war with the fans and that carried into this season.

He's not the reason we are where we are. But, in my opinion, he is one of the reasons we are where we are.

I get you. And I think this goes to the gamble. If we lost all those games and didn’t win the Europa, Ange probably leaves us quite deservedly as a failure who thought too much of himself and his ability to shape destiny, and in the end left a legacy of toxicity that would take time to be repaired.

But…because we actually won it, we went through all those home losses but then got the parade. The toxicity was abated. The fans were unified, and the players felt it. I genuinely think throwing all of that away to hire a coach that had absolutely no in possession game to speak of and was unproven at our level, ratcheted the toxicity back up when it didn’t need to have been. Because we suffered through everything last season and got the release. And then…have to watch a team have no idea how to break down opponents or put any attacking move together whatsoever. And obviously the results were bad. So you get a continuation of the toxicity bubbling up very quickly, rather than leaving it behind.

I would agree they Ange definitely needed to start season 3 well otherwise the toxicity would also have been there again. But I choose to believe personally we would have been ok, as much better than what we actually saw.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think we can all write something that sounds about right with the 20/20vision of the hindsight goggles (fudge, if one can't with them on, gawd help us!).

So it has to be acknowledged that the board took the decisions they did in June 2025. Not February 2026.

If you can provide a post from June 2025 that intimates broadly what you are saying here.....I'll tip my hat to you.

I’ll try and mess around with the search function and see if I can. But I feel in my bones that I was making the point that I didn’t think it was the right decision for all the reasons of laid out today in this thread. Ange never lost the players, and his gamble paid off. He was never a 17th placed manager, and the squad was not 17th quality, Ange with less injuries and a winning feeling would have been the way I went.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think we can all write something that sounds about right with the 20/20vision of the hindsight goggles (fudge, if one can't with them on, gawd help us!).

So it has to be acknowledged that the board took the decisions they did in June 2025. Not February 2026.

If you can provide a post from June 2025 that intimates broadly what you are saying here.....I'll tip my hat to you.

I wrote this right after we won. Deep down I feared we'd fu ck it up. And we did...


"...There will be much to write (and say) in the coming days and weeks, but for now let's acknowledge not just the win, but the fact that THIS Tottenham Hotspur is brave, focussed, and able to win when it counts. I mean, when it REALLY counts.

I hope with all my heart we take advantage of this opportunity to continue building and growing it.

Audere Est Fa-fudging-cere!"



How naive could I have been!!!

Also, a reminder to everyone reading this of what we were 'resetting'; the 'culture' we were looking to 'correct'... Call me weird, I am not sure I will ever understand it...

 

[Muttley]

I don’t disagree with this because I know many players who have been through Spurs and then on to clubs that win more trophies say that it didn’t hurt enough to lose at Spurs like it should have. And I would guess the only time we’ve really gotten away from that properly was under Poch.

I just think Ange’s decision to turn that around was to give this club a feeling of actually winning something. If the players could feel it, they’d know how good that felt. And they’d feel worse knowing that every loss took them further away from experiencing that great feeling again.

But to get there, out of the rubble of last season, meant putting all eggs in that basket. Maybe we could have won the Europa anyway and not prioritised the trophy quite so much and got up another couple of places with a couple more wins. But it would have reduced our chances of getting that winning feeling.

What I don't get is why we didn't put all our eggs in one basket though. We saw the injury phase start and Ange refusing to compromise his beliefs on the how he plays the game for the first month or two. Whether he felt he had to or whether he chose to, we then saw some compromise and more practicality of the situation with the tactics. Where we ended up however, was a system befitting of winning in the EL. However, we saw utter craziness in the league setup. We conceded something like 25 league goals in Apr/May because Ange didn't find a system close to the EL one that would yield league points even with alternative starting elevens.

I know this is a total exaggeration but it felt in the end that Ange could either park the bus and counter OR go all out high press "Ange ball" AND nothing in between. There seemed no capability for the middle ground and that is what cost us in the league. I think it is easy to say what @thfcsteff has said and imply that Ange did this knowingly. I think the deeper conversation is about why 11 players on a football pitch can't prevail over 11 players who aren't quite as good. I saw that loads in those end of season games, and we've seen so much of that this season as well. The answer is mostly about the coaching capabilities and the culture. Ange and Frank have been totally pulled apart for their coaching capabilities and I think that is fair in both cases.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I wrote this right after we won. Deep down I feared we'd fu ck it up. And we did...


"...There will be much to write (and say) in the coming days and weeks, but for now let's acknowledge not just the win, but the fact that THIS Tottenham Hotspur is brave, focussed, and able to win when it counts. I mean, when it REALLY counts.

I hope with all my heart we take advantage of this opportunity to continue building and growing it.

Audere Est Fa-fudging-cere!"



How naive could I have been!!!

Also, a reminder to everyone reading this of what we were 'resetting'; the 'culture' we were looking to 'correct'... Call me weird, I am not sure I will ever understand it...

View attachment 21762

Only at Tottenham could our 2 most glorious European nights of the century be so closely followed by those mangers losing their jobs!

 

[harr1984]

Only at Tottenham could our 2 most glorious European nights of the century be so closely followed by those mangers losing their jobs!

View attachment 21764

What a great picture. Can just feel the togetherness Poch created right there ....

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Only at Tottenham could our 2 most glorious European nights of the century be so closely followed by those mangers losing their jobs!

View attachment 21764

Great photo!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I wrote this right after we won. Deep down I feared we'd fu ck it up. And we did...


"...There will be much to write (and say) in the coming days and weeks, but for now let's acknowledge not just the win, but the fact that THIS Tottenham Hotspur is brave, focussed, and able to win when it counts. I mean, when it REALLY counts.

I hope with all my heart we take advantage of this opportunity to continue building and growing it.

Audere Est Fa-fudging-cere!"



How naive could I have been!!!

Also, a reminder to everyone reading this of what we were 'resetting'; the 'culture' we were looking to 'correct'... Call me weird, I am not sure I will ever understand it...

View attachment 21762

I think that given how we go thru managers....we might as well have given it a spin.

Pretty much the same reasoning for giving Poch another spin.....ie there are defo reasons why we shouldn't...but fudge it, let's give it a go!

(A Terrible attitude tbf....but this is where we find ourselves)

 

[fernadez]

As I said in response to @Muttley I agree that historically as a club it has been too easy for our players to accept losing, and I think that culture only changed under Poch, when they realised they could actually achieve more. And I would think one of the issues this season is the players realising no matter what the do, the club will never push on under ENIC. Hence why they all feel comfortable calling them out.

But I think it’s interesting you describe the trophy as a nice bonus with a day out, as opposed to something that would allow the club to really alter its posture and act with more confidence in high pressure scenarios. As well as show the players that despite everything they went through, they still became winners and they became the players that broke the trophy drought for the club. And they experienced the winning feeling, and would have wanted more of that. I think it’s a fair argument to say you can change the culture of a club by winning things, because the players need to keep winning to feel that high again. They need to feel it’s realistic to win again. And therefore they know the pain of losing is too much to bear, because it takes them further away from that high.

I think that because of the influence of money and TV, winning the Europa doesn't have the same kudos as it did as winning the old UEFA. These days it's almost easier to be in a European competition then not be in one. There's numerous teams in the Champions League that should be nowhere near there reducing the prestige of the Europa even more.

Listen to any player, they talk about 'the biggest stages' Premier League and Champions League. There's a reason other fans jeer when they hear us chant Champions of Europe and it's the same reason we did when West Ham chanted it.

A final is a final and it's a feat to win it, but no I don't think it had any effect on our players mentally as they're not those sort of players. We either have players who believe they should be challenging for top honours or those as it comes players who would have seen it as a bonus. Bergvall, Gray etc it would have meant more but they're too young to be tasked with instilling a winning mentality on the rest.

So we won but at the same time we didn't maintain it in the League at the same time, in a way it conveys the ENIC message and culture of give here but take there.

 

[Robspur12]

If some people are honest with themselves, winning the Europa League was not an ideal outcome; they had to admit that he delivered on a promise. There again, they would have good company with our board and football directorship, who I am sure squirmed when he did it.

The Steff I've come to respect over the years of being on this board is better than this kind of post..

 

[Robspur12]

What squad mate? It was decimated. Repeatedly. He went into the last three games of our EL run with no creative midfielders (not even a Simons available). He was treading water not to injure more players! Respectfully, I think if you take a step back from that thought you'll apreciate how impossible it was in real time (unless you're saying he should've given up on the El in order to try and scrape European football via the league???)

He had Kulu right up and until the final, Maddison was available until the end of April. Neither of whom were ever available to TF btw. He had Bentancur available too. Every manager treads water with their best players. That's how it is. But they still set out to win their league games. Point is though he didn't even try to adapt his tactics in the league to the extent that he did in the EL. The conclusion was, he didn't care. And that is the start of the awful league form we have just seen continue.

 

[carl]

He had Kulu right up and until the final, Maddison was available until the end of April. Neither of whom were ever available to TF btw. He had Bentancur available too. Every manager treads water with their best players. That's how it is. But they still set out to win their league games. Point is though he didn't even try to adapt his tactics in the league to the extent that he did in the EL. The conclusion was, he didn't care. And that is the start of the awful league form we have just seen continue.

But season 3 would've been different under Ange because........just because

Be interesting to see what powerhouse of European football comes in for our former EL winning manager, there must be a queue surely. His 8 game winless stint at Forest also doesn't matter as some on here say it doesn't count.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think that because of the influence of money and TV, winning the Europa doesn't have the same kudos as it did as winning the old UEFA. These days it's almost easier to be in a European competition then not be in one. There's numerous teams in the Champions League that should be nowhere near there reducing the prestige of the Europa even more.

Listen to any player, they talk about 'the biggest stages' Premier League and Champions League. There's a reason other fans jeer when they hear us chant Champions of Europe and it's the same reason we did when West Ham chanted it.

A final is a final and it's a feat to win it, but no I don't think it had any effect on our players mentally as they're not those sort of players. We either have players who believe they should be challenging for top honours or those as it comes players who would have seen it as a bonus. Bergvall, Gray etc it would have meant more but they're too young to be tasked with instilling a winning mentality on the rest.

So we won but at the same time we didn't maintain it in the League at the same time, in a way it conveys the ENIC message and culture of give here but take there.

I don’t think you can look at our players when the final whistle blew in Bilbao and say it had no effect on their mentality. The whole point is that a moment like that could have been allowed to change things but our decision makers didn’t allow it to happen.

I also think we needed a winner like Ange to actually get the players over the line. Honestly it should have been modern Tottenham prior to Bilbao, and modern Tottenham afterwards. I remember waking up the next day and looking at our club in a whole new light. We actually won something. After being the club that never got the job done. I don’t disagree that the Europa is a bit less prestigious than old Uefa but equally for the purposes of this discussion I don’t think it matters.

Our players turned up to that final expecting to win. And I believe that’s because they had a manager who won things and has ultimate belief in his ability to win things. Poch couldn’t even bring that mentality in the way that Ange did. Actually winning something when the pressure is on, when everything says our club just doesn’t do that, that’s the hardest thing. It doesn’t matter that it is less prestigious a trophy than it once was. It should have been a platform and a springboard for our club. The club though never had the intention of allowing it to be because they made the decision to sack the manager 5 months before it even happened.