The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

[BrainOfLevy]

But there is a difference between "not prioritizing" and "roll over and die"

This again is where we have differences of perception of what actually happened in league
- Did we really rotate that hard in league, or did we just protect Romero & VDV? e.g. Deki got injured in league in one of the most fudging inevitable things of all time
- Did we use the league to ensure the bench players were match fit to support main team? e.g. Spence and Moore for me didn't get significantly more time coming into last 2 months of season.
- Was there no consideration to momentum?
- Why didn't we use the EL formation more in PL to get team better prepared?

From my perspective, I think we protected VDV & Romero, but not much else, we didn't really use it to make us either have momentum or in anyway (player bench or tactics) be better prepared for final. I think it's more hindsight excuse than reality.

And since it seems to be necessary, none of the above takes away from cup achievement, it's a perspective on the league campaign that is relevant to the view of what could/would have happened moving forward in league.

I’ve answered a lot of your other points above, in admittedly posts that are way too long and probably make most readers want to rip their eyes out, especially around why he might not have used the Europa system in the league.

But on the point about Romero and VDV - I think it’s fair to argue that having the spine of your team injured, and particularly the two centre backs, is going to be the biggest factor in impacting results negatively. Which other teams had to deal with both first choice centre backs being out at the same time? How many had to deal with one being out? What were their results? What was the quality of the replacements?

The other thing I’d say I’d say is that typically it’s accepted that it’s harder to win after a European tie than it is with a full week of rest. I totally agree that we shouldn’t just accept that we will always lose those games, and typically in a normal season we wouldn’t. But…if we willingly entered into a cycle of European travel and then not playing our first choice defence, might that go some way to explaining the disparity in results?

 

[Raziel]

I’ve answered a lot of your other points above, in admittedly posts that are way too long and probably make most readers want to rip their eyes out, especially around why he might not have used the Europa system in the league.

But on the point about Romero and VDV - I think it’s fair to argue that having the spine of your team injured, and particularly the two centre backs, is going to be the biggest factor in impacting results negatively. Which other teams had to deal with both first choice centre backs being out at the same time? How many had to deal with one being out? What were their results? What was the quality of the replacements?

The other thing I’d say I’d say is that typically it’s accepted that it’s harder to win after a European tie than it is with a full week of rest. I totally agree that we shouldn’t just accept that we will always lose those games, and typically in a normal season we wouldn’t. But…if we willingly entered into a cycle of European travel and then not playing our first choice defence, might that go some way to explaining the disparity in results?

And I did read your responses, in the end (for most rational people)

- We can all accept that a squad that was thin in some areas, that had a ridiculous amount of injuries and prioritized (last 3 months of season) the cup, will have a direct impact on league results

The continued disconnect is the extent of that impact

- You believe (if I read it correctly) that it does explain 17th
- I don't, I think a dreadful season for Spurs in the league would have been 12th, explainable by the injuries, the prioritization, etc. The fact that 12th was still 10 losses less than us, 15 points more, and 14 goals less conceded shows the gap to what would have been an extremely poor league season, and that's my sticking point.

So we can agree to disagree ..

 

[marxoulis]

What puzzles me is that Amorim had an equally dreadful PL season, did not win anything and still has his job. Not to mention the quality of the players he had and their availability.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And I did read your responses, in the end (for most rational people)

- We can all accept that a squad that was thin in some areas, that had a ridiculous amount of injuries and prioritized (last 3 months of season) the cup, will have a direct impact on league results

The continued disconnect is the extent of that impact

- You believe (if I read it correctly) that it does explain 17th
- I don't, I think a dreadful season for Spurs in the league would have been 12th, explainable by the injuries, the prioritization, etc. The fact that 12th was still 10 losses less than us, 15 points more, and 14 goals less conceded shows the gap to what would have been an extremely poor league season, and that's my sticking point.

So we can agree to disagree ..

I am happy to agree to disagree. My point was never that people must all pine for Ange forever and must hate the club for letting him go, as if he was guaranteed to send us to glory.

It was more just, I think the guy deserves respect. I agree that he could have done things differently in the league and had us in a better position at the end of it. But that just wasn’t who he was. For all the reasons we have discussed, he is a winner, and he does things his way. And he made sure he was a winner with Tottenham, which not many managers can say.

I just think when it veers into a sort of ‘he’s not good enough for our League’ kind of debate, that’s where I have an issue. It’s assuming that rather than there being a method to his approach which helps his clubs win things, that he’s either unknowledgeable or too stubborn to utilise some pretty basic football concepts. He clearly had his reasons for doing it the way he did it, and he was the man in the seat accountable, where the buck stops with him. He promised something, and delivered it. It may not have been to everyone’s taste, it may have meant continued volatility, and maybe he was never supposed to be a long term appointment. More a pallet cleanser after Jose and Conte. I can accept all of that, I just wish people could also accept he’s really good at what he does, having had to deal with disrespect and being underestimated his entire career, and there’s a chance, just a chance, that if we spun the wheel with him again that volatility and variance would have led to another really special season in our favour if he was given the opportunity.

 

[braineclipse]

I still miss him.

 

[fernadez]

I’ve answered a lot of your other points above, in admittedly posts that are way too long and probably make most readers want to rip their eyes out, especially around why he might not have used the Europa system in the league.

But on the point about Romero and VDV - I think it’s fair to argue that having the spine of your team injured, and particularly the two centre backs, is going to be the biggest factor in impacting results negatively. Which other teams had to deal with both first choice centre backs being out at the same time? How many had to deal with one being out? What were their results? What was the quality of the replacements?

The other thing I’d say I’d say is that typically it’s accepted that it’s harder to win after a European tie than it is with a full week of rest. I totally agree that we shouldn’t just accept that we will always lose those games, and typically in a normal season we wouldn’t. But…if we willingly entered into a cycle of European travel and then not playing our first choice defence, might that go some way to explaining the disparity in results?

For me it wasn't the disparity in results as much as in performances. The league games saw a return to his more favored tactical system and us get spanked as a result.

The contrast between a more considered European performance then going back to playing basketball was jarring, evidence by that final defeat to Brighton which I think tipped the balance. Leaving the stadium that day the mood compared to the start was so different and just cemented the idea he he'd just revert to type next year.

 

[Bishop]

What puzzles me is that Amorim had an equally dreadful PL season, did not win anything and still has his job. Not to mention the quality of the players he had and their availability.

He's been in the job half a season and United were appreciably worse than we were even the season before. If he has another brick season akin to last I'd expect him to get sacked at that point.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He's been in the job half a season and United were appreciably worse than we were even the season before. If he has another brick season akin to last I'd expect him to get sacked at that point.

Yep
One was also recruited in the middle of the brick
The other created some of it

 

[BrainOfLevy]

For me it wasn't the disparity in results as much as in performances. The league games saw a return to his more favored tactical system and us get spanked as a result.

The contrast between a more considered European performance then going back to playing basketball was jarring, evidence by that final defeat to Brighton which I think tipped the balance. Leaving the stadium that day the mood compared to the start was so different and just cemented the idea he he'd just revert to type next year.

I go back to context. If we are taking anything seriously from that Brighton game, then he’s gonna be on a hiding to nothing. The players were hungover.

He will have reverted to type, or rather he would never change. But not being hungover, and actually being ready to compete in a Premier League match, would have seen his system work a lot better.

 

[Muttley]

I still miss him.

Jose?

 

[Muttley]

I just think when it veers into a sort of ‘he’s not good enough for our League’ kind of debate, that’s where I have an issue.

I guess where I take issue as that is the wrong question anyway. At least for me. The question needs to be is he / was he up to operating at the very top end of the PL. If he's not then we've made the right decision. Personally, I had my doubts from day 1 and said that Ange was likely to plateau at a level below where we aspire to in this new financial model. As you know, I desperately wanted to be wrong but unfortunately he kept proving me right.

 

[Raziel]

What puzzles me is that Amorim had an equally dreadful PL season, did not win anything and still has his job. Not to mention the quality of the players he had and their availability.

He's been in the job half a season and United were appreciably worse than we were even the season before. If he has another brick season akin to last I'd expect him to get sacked at that point.

He probably has till October or November to turn it around (very unlikely), so it's quite possible United is doing the ETH thing again (without the trophy) and not only will they have a limited pool of managers to choose from at that point, but less money, more players potentially not aligned to system manager wants to play.

 

[fernadez]

I go back to context. If we are taking anything seriously from that Brighton game, then he’s gonna be on a hiding to nothing. The players were hungover.

He will have reverted to type, or rather he would never change. But not being hungover, and actually being ready to compete in a Premier League match, would have seen his system work a lot better.

In context the Brighton game wasn't even our worse performance.

The fact that hungover Tottenham are not worse than game ready Tottenham that's no a hiding to nothing.

 

[Bishop]

In context the Brighton game wasn't even our worse performance.

The fact that hungover Tottenham are not worse than game ready Tottenham that's no a hiding to nothing.

I'm very confused by people who watched the games in the league last and think "yeah he's the man to take us forward." The football he played was so devoid of self awareness I truly don't understand how anyone can think another season would make any difference. The hope seems to rely on fewer injuries (nothing suggests that would be the case) and an improved squad. Not taking into account we are never going to buy the type of players he actually needs. His ideals and philosophy were admirable but his implementation was horrid and he inability to adapt told the whole story.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm very confused by people who watched the games in the league last and think "yeah he's the man to take us forward." The football he played was so devoid of self awareness I truly don't understand how anyone can think another season would make any difference. The hope seems to rely on fewer injuries (nothing suggests that would be the case) and an improved squad. Not taking into account we are never going to buy the type of players he actually needs. His ideals and philosophy were admirable but his implementation was horrid and he inability to adapt told the whole story.

If he was coaching a kids team, all the parents would love him, his attitude and ideals to sport are absolutely spot on.

But they have no place in pro football.

 

[Raziel]

If he was coaching a kids team, all the parents would love him, his attitude and ideals to sport are absolutely spot on.

But they have no place in pro football.

They have a place in pro football, his record proves that, it's worked at a pretty decent level.

Does it work at the absolute highest level? PL data says no, not consistently enough. The whole thread is a bit of a re-hash but to me, remains pretty simple.

You had a manager that a certain way of playing has brought him success for 29 years, every time he got into a bad run, doubling down on the original plan worked, hence from his perspective (and human inclination to fight change and/or accept personal flaws), this was just another bump to ride out, it would improve, it always had.

The issue is the core of the system is a trade off between chances created and chances given up, and I believe that balance breaks at top level, too often your opposition will be able to convert their chances at equal or higher rate than you, especially when they do more in game management than you, and when your system does not play to your own players strengths/quality difference.

He's a character in the game, similar in some ways to a Bielsa, the game is probably better for it, fans will love a certain part of them, but at the highest level, where it's all about margins, you have to be more pragmatic, play the odds. ..

 

[tommysvr]

Jesus fudging Christ there’s still people citing the Brighton game.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm very confused by people who watched the games in the league last and think "yeah he's the man to take us forward." The football he played was so devoid of self awareness I truly don't understand how anyone can think another season would make any difference. The hope seems to rely on fewer injuries (nothing suggests that would be the case) and an improved squad. Not taking into account we are never going to buy the type of players he actually needs. His ideals and philosophy were admirable but his implementation was horrid and he inability to adapt told the whole story.

Therein lies the problem. That was never the basis for harboring such an opinion (in my case anyway).
I'll say for myself that my main reason for wanting to take a punt with him was to see if the magic of winning -the alchemy of belief that only winning in such adverse conditions can bring- would've worked (alongside a fitter better pre-season prepared, lessons-learnt squad and club). I freely accept that this is not the way people actually running a business can be expected to think. There are serious financial risks involved. I get it (even if I don't like it). As I've said before, I never expected him to stay as I thought he was gone since Feb in the club's eyes anyway.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

They have a place in pro football, his record proves that, it's worked at a pretty decent level.

Does it work at the absolute highest level? PL data says no, not consistently enough. The whole thread is a bit of a re-hash but to me, remains pretty simple.

You had a manager that a certain way of playing has brought him success for 29 years, every time he got into a bad run, doubling down on the original plan worked, hence from his perspective (and human inclination to fight change and/or accept personal flaws), this was just another bump to ride out, it would improve, it always had.

The issue is the core of the system is a trade off between chances created and chances given up, and I believe that balance breaks at top level, too often your opposition will be able to convert their chances at equal or higher rate than you, especially when they do more in game management than you, and when your system does not play to your own players strengths/quality difference.

He's a character in the game, similar in some ways to a Bielsa, the game is probably better for it, fans will love a certain part of them, but at the highest level, where it's all about margins, you have to be more pragmatic, play the odds. ..

Gonna try and not bite on the ‘at the highest level it doesn’t work’ bit.

To your last point though - if playing the odds is actually what it takes, why is Mourinho not still at a top club? He is all about the ‘odds’.

My point is just that every manager has their way. And a lot of times it doesn’t look like it’s going to work until it does. I do not believe there is any such thing as the perfect system / combination between pragmatism and idealism. I believe all managers have their way, and that history is written by the winners. Often this means that a manager picked the perfect club for them, and they got everything in place, and were able to succeed. And other times it means a great manager (I’m not saying this about Ange) got a chance, but it was the wrong time, at the wrong club, and we may never know. There are only so many clubs, and there can only be so many winners, and top clubs do not give up and coming managers multiple goes, they chew them up and appoint the next big thing.

Take Graham Potter. He got his opportunity at Chelsea. Was it too big for him? Maybe. Was he actually just not good enough? Also maybe. But I just don’t know that you can write Potter off as not good enough for that level because he was the first manager under a group of owners that were finding their own way in this game and league. We’ll never know if he made a better move for himself whether he would continue to ascend.

 

[thfcsteff]

They have a place in pro football, his record proves that, it's worked at a pretty decent level.

Does it work at the absolute highest level? PL data says no, not consistently enough. The whole thread is a bit of a re-hash but to me, remains pretty simple.

You had a manager that a certain way of playing has brought him success for 29 years, every time he got into a bad run, doubling down on the original plan worked, hence from his perspective (and human inclination to fight change and/or accept personal flaws), this was just another bump to ride out, it would improve, it always had.

The issue is the core of the system is a trade off between chances created and chances given up, and I believe that balance breaks at top level, too often your opposition will be able to convert their chances at equal or higher rate than you, especially when they do more in game management than you, and when your system does not play to your own players strengths/quality difference.

He's a character in the game, similar in some ways to a Bielsa, the game is probably better for it, fans will love a certain part of them, but at the highest level, where it's all about margins, you have to be more pragmatic, play the odds. ..

I am genuinely not looking to be argumentative/a bellend, but at the highest level, where it was all about margins, he was more pragmatic and he won the Europa League?!! He did it.

BTW, apropos of nothing other than a bit of mischief making, in Dec 2021 when we had 8 players testing positive for Covid, Conte chose to forfeit the game against Rennes in the Conference League rather than put a side out and find a way to get the job done. We went out of the tournament.
In 20/21, Mourinho could not get us past the last 16 of the Europa League, going out to Dinamo Zagreb. A pair of winners...(again, to be clear, NOT aimed at you specificallty, just making a somewhat aggravating and inflammatory factual point in general with regards to these competitions)...