The Current State of Spurs (and some sympathy for Thomas Frank)

[thfcsteff]

Even before I saw @Mrs Vert 's comment about the chaos, I've been pondering the current state of the club and reflecting on just how hugely tough it has to be for Thomas Frank to deal with (in many ways hugely unfair).

We changed managers after winning a trophy which always needs a degree of 'buy-in' from the fans and the squad.
The chairman who hired him then 'leaves' in what was essentially a 'hostile take-over' of sorts.
His entire support team bar one are also out of the picture.
We lose two key players before the season starts. Players are certainly purchased to fill the voids with a higher degree of pedigree and experience, so that's OK.
We fail to address the glaring need for this club of a LB/LCB, and for the manager specifically, a left-winger who can mirror Kudus in effect.
As we approach the Xmas break we lose one of our main coaches.
Having trumpeted the return of Paratici as a DoF in tandem with Lange, we suddenly see rumours swirling that Paratici is being chased by Fiorentina (this is confirmed by two reliable beat reporters who say that whilst no official contact has been made, 'talks' have happened, thus instability or possible Paratici power-playing?)
We then see the news reported that our main attacking target for January has 'politely turned us down' in shades of Rivaldo or even Eze stuff.
We are no clearer whether the Lewis family are 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' or not, as their cards are close to their chests.

I think when you look at the above line by line, and measure it against several years of poor management off and around the pitch to boot, we are in an enormous transition. Some might say mess. I don't know. It doesn't feel great.

In that regard, it is really easy to feel a large degree of sympathy for Thomas Frank.
He will never have dealt with anything like this before. His previous clubs had structures and systems in place. Brentford? He helped create some of those, albeit the ownership was brilliant with regards to maximising everything they could summon from the club and it's potential. You get time within that stable environment.

We can never know what he was 'sold' about the club when he was interviewed, what he was promised. Maybe he was told he could have the time. Maybe he laid out a clear strategy for footballing matters and style of play and was told no problem, we support you. Maybe he learnt quickly that you simply don't get the time at a club like this, and maybe he is trying to serve two masters in terms of results and style, leading to a net result of anxiety and confusion.

There is something in him which makes me want to believe that if he got two years, we'd end up with a side that played like prime Poch or similar. He's obviously a good technical coach, and he's obviously got a high ceiling in terms of growth. Currently I don't believe the above, and only because I have seen no evidence of it.
It doesn't stop me hoping the shoots will be seen soon, and it doesn't stop me hoping he can find firm footing to succeed.

Right now, I think the board and those around him have to work very very hard to give him stable support, and honestly, I am not sure how that happens if one of your DoF's is flirting/being chased and you've just lost a key member of your coaching staff.
What Frank gets in this window will tell us everything.
But again, given exactly where we are as a football club right now, it is easy to feel sympathy for him because THIS was not on the tin...

(again @billyiddo if you think this can be parked back in the Frank thread, all good, I think it has as much ENIC-type chat as managerial thus the sep thread)

 

[Raziel]

The reason we like Steff, always dares to dream, always hope.

Not sure I feel the same way re Frank, yes I have sympathy that what he walked into was not as advertised in a matter of a month, but that's reality, I've moved my family 4,000 miles for a job and structure that changed within two months of me being in a new country, it happens.

Frank earned his shot, the question is can he take the opportunity, can he adapt fast enough. My opinion was always Frank had a higher floor than others but perhaps not as high a ceiling, the issue for him is it looks like his floor is as low as everyone else's, and there is no shinning vision of why he is worth the year or two of time.

The broader chaos of the club is interesting, partially because it's all unknown (we had the devil we knew), January will be telling.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I believe our problems were created by the decision to prioritise the building of a new stadium rather than strengthening the team when we were in a strong position.
The team is full of good players who lack consistency, I think this is due to our lack of a plan in terms of what sort of football we should play, changing managers so frequently has created this situation.
The sale of Kane was the right thing to do but he was a unique player and we should have gone all out to replace him with a top player, it would have been impossible to replace like for like but a proven goal scorer was needed as Harry had been saving our bacon for years.
I've never been one for buy him not matter the cost fan but unless we do not improve our recruitment of top talent we will fall back into a position which will see us struggle for years.
It give me no joy to write this but that's the way I see it, I'm not as angry as most as I've never seen the game as just about winning throphies or the ramblings of a miserable old Liverpool manager, football is just a simple game to enjoy and get on with the rest of your life.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Even before I saw @Mrs Vert 's comment about the chaos, I've been pondering the current state of the club and reflecting on just how hugely tough it has to be for Thomas Frank to deal with (in many ways hugely unfair).

We changed managers after winning a trophy which always needs a degree of 'buy-in' from the fans and the squad.
The chairman who hired him then 'leaves' in what was essentially a 'hostile take-over' of sorts.
His entire support team bar one are also out of the picture.
We lose two key players before the season starts. Players are certainly purchased to fill the voids with a higher degree of pedigree and experience, so that's OK.
We fail to address the glaring need for this club of a LB/LCB, and for the manager specifically, a left-winger who can mirror Kudus in effect.
As we approach the Xmas break we lose one of our main coaches.
Having trumpeted the return of Paratici as a DoF in tandem with Lange, we suddenly see rumours swirling that Paratici is being chased by Fiorentina (this is confirmed by two reliable beat reporters who say that whilst no official contact has been made, 'talks' have happened, thus instability or possible Paratici power-playing?)
We then see the news reported that our main attacking target for January has 'politely turned us down' in shades of Rivaldo or even Eze stuff.
We are no clearer whether the Lewis family are 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' or not, as their cards are close to their chests.

I think when you look at the above line by line, and measure it against several years of poor management off and around the pitch to boot, we are in an enormous transition. Some might say mess. I don't know. It doesn't feel great.

In that regard, it is really easy to feel a large degree of sympathy for Thomas Frank.
He will never have dealt with anything like this before. His previous clubs had structures and systems in place. Brentford? He helped create some of those, albeit the ownership was brilliant with regards to maximising everything they could summon from the club and it's potential. You get time within that stable environment.

We can never know what he was 'sold' about the club when he was interviewed, what he was promised. Maybe he was told he could have the time. Maybe he laid out a clear strategy for footballing matters and style of play and was told no problem, we support you. Maybe he learnt quickly that you simply don't get the time at a club like this, and maybe he is trying to serve two masters in terms of results and style, leading to a net result of anxiety and confusion.

There is something in him which makes me want to believe that if he got two years, we'd end up with a side that played like prime Poch or similar. He's obviously a good technical coach, and he's obviously got a high ceiling in terms of growth. Currently I don't believe the above, and only because I have seen no evidence of it.
It doesn't stop me hoping the shoots will be seen soon, and it doesn't stop me hoping he can find firm footing to succeed.

Right now, I think the board and those around him have to work very very hard to give him stable support, and honestly, I am not sure how that happens if one of your DoF's is flirting/being chased and you've just lost a key member of your coaching staff.
What Frank gets in this window will tell us everything.
But again, given exactly where we are as a football club right now, it is easy to feel sympathy for him because THIS was not on the tin...

(again @billyiddo if you think this can be parked back in the Frank thread, all good, I think it has as much ENIC-type chat as managerial thus the sep thread)

You missed impatient fans booing him. I reckon he could accept all the rest as part of football.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I believe our problems were created by the decision to prioritise the building of a new stadium rather than strengthening the team when we were in a strong position.
The team is full of good players who lack consistency, I think this is due to our lack of a plan in terms of what sort of football we should play, changing managers so frequently has created this situation.
The sale of Kane was the right thing to do but he was a unique player and we should have gone all out to replace him with a top player, it would have been impossible to replace like for like but a proven goal scorer was needed as Harry had been saving our bacon for years.
I've never been one for buy him not matter the cost fan but unless we do not improve our recruitment of top talent we will fall back into a position which will see us struggle for years.
It give me no joy to write this but that's the way I see it, I'm not as angry as most as I've never seen the game as just about winning throphies or the ramblings of a miserable old Liverpool manager, football is just a simple game to enjoy and get on with the rest of your life.

Prioritise the building of a new stadium or strengthening the team.
Pick one.

 

[clownfoot]

I’ve wanted it to work for Frank but must admit I’m slowly turning to the opinion that he’s not the answer. Not completely, but week on week I’m losing faith due to the way we’re playing.

However, I do think Levy not being around to take part of the blame is speeding this feeling up. He was almost a panto villain for the fan base, anything any of us were unhappy about we could attribute the blame to the little bald fella. No LB back up? Levy’s fault. Injured players not returning in time? Levy’s fault. Price of a pint in the ground? Levy’s fault.

Next week we enter the first transfer window in around 25 years without him at the helm, so until we see their intentions and ability to negotiate we’re dealing with uncertainties. If they have a bad window then it could be perceived that Frank has been let down and he’s given a bit more leeway

 

[Kandi1977]

But, but, but.... Everything that was wrong with this club was supposed to be Levy's fault! As soon as Levy was replaced, everything was going to be perfect!

 

[Gutter Boy]

Even before I saw @Mrs Vert 's comment about the chaos, I've been pondering the current state of the club and reflecting on just how hugely tough it has to be for Thomas Frank to deal with (in many ways hugely unfair).

We changed managers after winning a trophy which always needs a degree of 'buy-in' from the fans and the squad.
The chairman who hired him then 'leaves' in what was essentially a 'hostile take-over' of sorts.
His entire support team bar one are also out of the picture.
We lose two key players before the season starts. Players are certainly purchased to fill the voids with a higher degree of pedigree and experience, so that's OK.
We fail to address the glaring need for this club of a LB/LCB, and for the manager specifically, a left-winger who can mirror Kudus in effect.
As we approach the Xmas break we lose one of our main coaches.
Having trumpeted the return of Paratici as a DoF in tandem with Lange, we suddenly see rumours swirling that Paratici is being chased by Fiorentina (this is confirmed by two reliable beat reporters who say that whilst no official contact has been made, 'talks' have happened, thus instability or possible Paratici power-playing?)
We then see the news reported that our main attacking target for January has 'politely turned us down' in shades of Rivaldo or even Eze stuff.
We are no clearer whether the Lewis family are 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' or not, as their cards are close to their chests.

I think when you look at the above line by line, and measure it against several years of poor management off and around the pitch to boot, we are in an enormous transition. Some might say mess. I don't know. It doesn't feel great.

In that regard, it is really easy to feel a large degree of sympathy for Thomas Frank.
He will never have dealt with anything like this before. His previous clubs had structures and systems in place. Brentford? He helped create some of those, albeit the ownership was brilliant with regards to maximising everything they could summon from the club and it's potential. You get time within that stable environment.

We can never know what he was 'sold' about the club when he was interviewed, what he was promised. Maybe he was told he could have the time. Maybe he laid out a clear strategy for footballing matters and style of play and was told no problem, we support you. Maybe he learnt quickly that you simply don't get the time at a club like this, and maybe he is trying to serve two masters in terms of results and style, leading to a net result of anxiety and confusion.

There is something in him which makes me want to believe that if he got two years, we'd end up with a side that played like prime Poch or similar. He's obviously a good technical coach, and he's obviously got a high ceiling in terms of growth. Currently I don't believe the above, and only because I have seen no evidence of it.
It doesn't stop me hoping the shoots will be seen soon, and it doesn't stop me hoping he can find firm footing to succeed.

Right now, I think the board and those around him have to work very very hard to give him stable support, and honestly, I am not sure how that happens if one of your DoF's is flirting/being chased and you've just lost a key member of your coaching staff.
What Frank gets in this window will tell us everything.
But again, given exactly where we are as a football club right now, it is easy to feel sympathy for him because THIS was not on the tin...

(again @billyiddo if you think this can be parked back in the Frank thread, all good, I think it has as much ENIC-type chat as managerial thus the sep thread)

What do you mean support team - i thought he brought all the coaches he wanted with him, plus there was someone medical or nutrition-y too?

I wouldnt use some of those other excuses yet either. The Paratici (probably tabloid BS) and Semenyo (was always going to go higher up the foodchain) stories dont really ring true. Our last two windows have shown that everyone is well off the scent with what we are actually up to transfer wise.

And Davies' contract extension and decision to focus resources on other areas to LB was one of the very first things Frank actively agreed to when he showed up, so he has some ownership of that too

 

[Muttley]

I don't want this to become a thread about the strengths and weaknesses of Frank. We have one for that. Let's talk about the health of the club.

I think we're missing some important pieces. The main one is really about the financial model of the club. We did something amazing in 2019 when the stadium opened and we then got hit with 2 COVID years that stopped us realising our full potential. It's only really been 3 or 4 years of operating in the new cashflow model and to me it still feels good. We're not in a position where splurging cash on someone like Tanguy (and it backfiring) can set us back.

In reality we can now deal with those poor recruitment anomalies. The health of the squad is a great indicator of the health of the club in my opinion. When I look at that squad today, I only get excited. Where I would like to come into the leadership group and start bashing some heads together is about the recruitment strategy. We simply need to stop buying quantity and we need to start selling players for money. It is our undoing every single year and has been for a long time. I think I listed 8 exits over the next 2 windows on another thread. I think we could buy 2 in Jan and 3 in the summer and promote 3 youngsters for next season and transform this squad. Put them together with our best current 14 or 15 players and we can be a force. Not title winning yet, but in a completely different place from where feel we are now.

I think we may have just got ourselves into a negative mindset recently. In reality we should acknowledge what a couple of massive competitors of ours are achieving running on the same operating model as us. It can be done. We just need to get our squad strategy right.

 

[johnola]

My guns are very firmly pointed at those who wanted Levy gone.

They created an atmosphere of over expectation and outright negativity and it is now the prevalent one at the new stadium.

Quite frankly is an ugly fan base and we get what we deserve.

 

[thfcsteff]

The reason we like Steff, always dares to dream, always hope.

Not sure I feel the same way re Frank, yes I have sympathy that what he walked into was not as advertised in a matter of a month, but that's reality, I've moved my family 4,000 miles for a job and structure that changed within two months of me being in a new country, it happens.

Frank earned his shot, the question is can he take the opportunity, can he adapt fast enough. My opinion was always Frank had a higher floor than others but perhaps not as high a ceiling, the issue for him is it looks like his floor is as low as everyone else's, and there is no shinning vision of why he is worth the year or two of time.

The broader chaos of the club is interesting, partially because it's all unknown (we had the devil we knew), January will be telling.

Trust me mate, if you've been reading my thoughts you'll see I am generally of that thought (albeit I do always want to believe the end result will be positive, that is far more important than being right or wrong as we all win).
I do think it is interesting to view things from other perspectives though, and in that context he cannot have forseen what was coming...

 

[Muttley]

And Davies' contract extension and decision to focus resources on other areas to LB was one of the very first things Frank actively agreed to when he showed up, so he has some ownership of that too

Wasn't it just a one year trigger clause that was already written into the contract anyway. If I was Frank and my new club have told me that they can't bring me in another LB/LCB what am I going to say? I'm not going to leave myself short, especially knowing the lack of lefties to work with.

Roll on a year, and if the club don't address that area then Frank should get angry.

I think "some ownership" is about right. It's mostly on the club though. It's what I talk about above. Quality over quantity. We shouldn't just buy for the sake of it. There will be circumstances like with Ben where we have to ride it out with existing personnel until we can go big on a new signing. That's what big clubs do.

 

[DeanoAustin]

My guns are very firmly pointed at those who wanted Levy gone.

They created an atmosphere of over expectation and outright negativity and it is now the prevalent one at the new stadium.

Quite frankly is an ugly fan base and we get what we deserve.

I think it's too early to be definitive on Levy yet. To be fair, what we're seeing now is partially his responsibility and partially an outcome of decisions he made.

That said, I actually agree with you and think history will be kind to Levy. He had us top 6 for pretty much 20 years and we challenged for the title 2 or 3 times in that time period as well as reaching the CL final. The problem was as you say - over expectation. We've won the league twice in almost 150 years and not challenged for it much more often. Yet, he was pilloried because the club didn't challenge for the big prizes more often. While we should always aspire to do better, I think some fans need to remember that they support Tottenham Hotspur. As harsh as it sounds, we aren't Liverpool or Man U (or the northern and southern lottery winners).

I said it while he was here so this isn't some nostalgia tinted declaration but I think, even acknowledging his mistakes, Levy was incredible for this club.

It looks very bleak at the moment. I've no enthusiasm for anything Spurs and I think a lot of fans feel the same. We'll keep going because that's what supporters do but it's as bad as I remember it for a long time. I take some consolation in the fact that you're never as high as you think you are when you're soaring and you're never as low as you think you are when you're down.

I'm sure we'll have some more dark says in our short term future but Tottenham Hotspur will rise again.

 

[johnola]

I think it's too early to be definitive on Levy yet. To be fair, what we're seeing now is partially his responsibility and partially an outcome of decisions he made.

That said, I actually agree with you and think history will be kind to Levy. He had us top 6 for pretty much 20 years and we challenged for the title 2 or 3 times in that time period as well as reaching the CL final. The problem was as you say - over expectation. We've won the league twice in almost 150 years and not challenged for it much more often. Yet, he was pilloried because the club didn't challenge for the big prizes more often. While we should always aspire to do better, I think some fans need to remember that they support Tottenham Hotspur. As harsh as it sounds, we aren't Liverpool or Man U (or the northern and southern lottery winners).

I said it while he was here so this isn't some nostalgia tinted declaration but I think, even acknowledging his mistakes, Levy was incredible for this club.

It looks very bleak at the moment. I've no enthusiasm for anything Spurs and I think a lot of fans feel the same. We'll keep going because that's what supporters do but it's as bad as I remember it for a long time. I take some consolation in the fact that you're never as high as you think you are when you're soaring and you're never as low as you think you are when you're down.

I'm sure we'll have some more dark says in our short term future but Tottenham Hotspur will rise again.

He was the figurehead now we just have a black hole orbited by some faceless suits.

“There used to be a Chairman in there”.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This is very good IMO explaining where we are, even with the "they are mates" angle

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[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

My guns are very firmly pointed at those who wanted Levy gone.

They created an atmosphere of over expectation and outright negativity and it is now the prevalent one at the new stadium.

Quite frankly is an ugly fan base and we get what we deserve.

I dont think we are alone there, with the drop off in the usual suspects more teams fans are expecting their team to win a trophy and there is frustration with results at most clubs. It's a symptom of the modern world "I want it and I want it now"
All leader have their sell by date and it was probably the right time for Levy to go, we have to be patient, we have plenty of experience in having our dreams shattered but it's too early to judge the board yet.

 

[Muttley]

I dont think we are alone there, with the drop off in the usual suspects more teams fans are expecting their team to win a trophy and there is frustration with results at most clubs. It's a symptom of the modern world "I want it and I want it now"
All leader have their sell by date and it was probably the right time for Levy to go, we have to be patient, we have plenty of experience in having our dreams shattered but it's too early to judge the board yet.

I'm still not convinced Levy leaving has changed a single thing at the club.

What do people think is running differently under the new regime? What would Levy have done better or worse? What decisions would he have made differently?

 

[harr1984]

I'm still not convinced Levy leaving has changed a single thing at the club.

What do people think is running differently under the new regime? What would Levy have done better or worse? What decisions would he have made differently?

All this Levy stuff is pointless at this stage, it will be a few years into the future before we can even try and gauge either way whether we are better/worse off. And even then if we are somehow better off it would have been in no small part due to the stadium anyway which he obviously delivered on - right now it's very much an unknown what the future is after Levy and anything said at this point is pure speculation....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I'm still not convinced Levy leaving has changed a single thing at the club.

What do people think is running differently under the new regime? What would Levy have done better or worse? What decisions would he have made differently?

Its the biggest slight of hand tactic to fool a fanbase that is easily fooled

"the big bad wolf has gone, we want success and we want the investment to be on the field not off it"

I mean if they were not the same owner group that was here before it wouldn't be so laughable

The idea also now that people still talk and act like Levy was acting like some broken arrow, taking their investment from 55m to 4bn and took all those decisions on his own, and therefore they are now upset................do me a favour

 

[DeanoAustin]

I'm still not convinced Levy leaving has changed a single thing at the club.

What do people think is running differently under the new regime? What would Levy have done better or worse? What decisions would he have made differently?

I think you're right. Proof of the pudding will be in the January and summer windows. The Lewis' have made a lot of noise about wanting to be competitive but it's easy to say that in September when you can't do anything about it. I'm very, very skeptical that the family who've owned this club through 25 years of prudence are suddenly going to start splurging especially if we are bound to lenders on the wage structure as Simon Jordan has strongly hinted at.

Levy, whatever his faults, was at least a figurehead for the club and you had a good idea how things were going to be run because he always seemed to do what was best for business.