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The Crossroads...

Our budget is among the biggest, and its increasing - closing the gap.

It is also a point that, if you focus on it hard enough, completely ignores the quality of squad we have right now.
You could generalise and call it "Among the biggest" or you could be specific and call it "The 6th biggest" which is an absolute fact. Are Everton and West Ham's budgets also 'among the biggest'?

We have a good squad with some glaring holes (right back and defensive midfield) and also some big problems due to a lack of signings a year ago and a bunch of players who should've left the club but didn't.

Can I just ask for an "yes"/"no" answer from you to this one question: Do you agree that throughout Europe the clubs with the biggest wage and transfer budgets in their leagues are those that dominate their leagues?
 
União Desportiva de Leiria. ;)

I'm not arguing for him, but am I right in saying there are now only two teams that can out do us in wages and transfers?
HAha. I looked them up. Good call!

Although according to my friend Google - apparently he took over with them having finished 5th the previous season, spent 1 season there where they finished 7th and then left. The following season they then finished 5th again.
 
You could generalise and call it "Among the biggest" or you could be specific and call it "The 6th biggest" which is an absolute fact. Are Everton and West Ham's budgets also 'among the biggest'?

We have a good squad with some glaring holes (right back and defensive midfield) and also some big problems due to a lack of signings a year ago and a bunch of players who should've left the club but didn't.

Can I just ask for an "yes"/"no" answer from you to this one question: Do you agree that throughout Europe the clubs with the biggest wage and transfer budgets in their leagues are those that dominate their leagues?

Generally, yes.

A bit reductive to try and remove all context except the bit that suits you though, isnt it? Yes/No will suffice.

Is it an absolute fact, our 6th biggest budget is increasing, and more rapidly than our rivals? Yes/No will suffice.

Our current squad, performing at an expected level - how many teams are better? Is it 5 or more? Yes/No will suffice.

With just two key buys - by your specification - how many better teams than us would there be? Is it 5 or more? Yes/No will suffice.
 
Our budget is among the biggest, and its increasing - closing the gap.

It is also a point that, if you focus on it hard enough, completely ignores the quality of squad we have right now.

Exactly we have on paper the 3rd best squad in the league.
Yet the results say 38 points from 28 games in 2019.
If we continue at this rate thats 51 points. What would have got us 11th place last season.
Even 6th place is out of touch right now. That's how much we have fallen.

I believe the actual split is fans is between those daring to look at the league table and those rewatching the Ajax highlights every day.
 
Exactly we have on paper the 3rd best squad in the league.
Yet the results say 38 points from 28 games in 2019.
If we continue at this rate thats 51 points. What would have got us 11th place last season.
Even 6th place is out of touch right now. That's how much we have fallen.

I believe the actual split is fans is between those daring to look at the league table and those rewatching the Ajax highlights every day.
Trouble is squads on paper don't allow for any context whatsoever.


The split, as far as i can see, is between those that think the squad not being improved/refreshed for so long has finally caught up with us and this season is one too many for the manager to keep churning out results Vs those who think the manager should continue to perform at the same level laid down when the squad was at it's peak despit the squad not being improved over a 3 to 4 year period with regards to signings and having actually lost 2 important first XI players (and several others through becoming crocked and or old)

The first group want to see Poch get his long overdue squad refresh whilst the 2nd want to micro analyse every decision he makes with a squad that is clearly on the wane collectively.
 
Trouble is squafs on paper don't allow for any context whatdoever.


The split, as far as i can see, is between those that think the squad not being improved/refreshed for so long has finally caught up with us and this season is one too many for the manager to keep churning out results Vs those who think the manager should continue to perform at the same level laid down when the squad was at it's peak.

The first group want to see Poch get his long overdue squad refresh whilst the 2nd want to micro analyse every decision he makes with a squad that is clearly on the wane collectively.

Not one season ..

Tottenham-Hotspur-Premier-League-Trendlines.png
 
I think we need to solve the issues of the players going out of contract and those that want to leave and then see where we are changing the manager now is not going to clear up those issues. Who's fault is it that we are in this situation is open to debate but I would say its mostly how football is now with free transfers maybe If levy would have offered them bigger contracts 2 or 3 years ago they would have signed them.Maybe not.I does seem that at some point toby verts and eriksen were offered improved contracts and when they didn't sign they should have been maybe been shipped out.Hard to do this with 3 world class players and you wouldn't necessarily trust levy to replace them properly.
 
Generally, yes.

Generally yes? Or an absolute unequivocal yes in every single top league, with only one single manager being good enough to buck that trend?

For your questions I'll give a Yes/No and also expand on why I feel that way.

A bit reductive to try and remove all context except the bit that suits you though, isnt it? Yes/No will suffice.
No.

I don't think it is at all reductive and I'll explain my "no" here by saying that I think the important context is that it is our current manager who has been the person that has created all of that context. It is largely because of Pochettino that we have managed to consistently punch above our weight for the last 4 years that has led to those increases in the stature of our club and the additional income that has brought (that he hasn't been lucky enough to get a decent portion of to actually spend). When he came in we hoped for a top 4 finish, we didn't ever actually expect one. He changed the expectations of the club.

Is it an absolute fact, our 6th biggest budget is increasing, and more rapidly than our rivals? Yes/No will suffice.
No.

It not a fact at all. Below are the facts:
Since Pochettino took over the club in 2014 our wage bill has grown by a grand total of £48 million. In that same time:
Liverpool have grown their wages by £120 million.
Man Utd grown theirs by £81 million.
Arsenal grown theirs by £57 million.
Emirates Marketing Project have added £55 million.
Chelsea have added £51 million.

So our sixth biggest budget is actually moving slightly further behind three of the clubs ahead of us and considerably further behind two of them.

Further to the above clubs that we have fallen further behind, the clubs below us have been catching us up:
Everton have increased their wage bill by £86 million in that same period that we increased ours by only £48 million.
Leicester increased theirs by £83 million.
Crystal Palace by £72 million.
and Southampton by £50 million.

Note that all of these figures are only the last set of published accounts, so there is of course the possibility that we have made very large increases in that last year (which is quite likely) while the other clubs have stood still (which is quite unlikely), that is all just speculation though and not fact.

The reality is that as of the last set of published accounts for all clubs our wage bill was closer to those of Brighton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Burnley, Watford, Swansea, West Brom, Stoke, Bournemouth, West Ham, Southampton, Crystal Palace, Leicester and Everton than it was to the next club up from us - Arsenal. Lord only knows how many more clubs would appear in that list if considering Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd or Emirates Marketing Project instead of Arsenal, but the reality is that our wage budget was closer to Huddersfield who had the lowest budget in the league than it was to Liverpool who had only the 4th biggest.

Our current squad, performing at an expected level - how many teams are better? Is it 5 or more? Yes/No will suffice.

No.

They are not performing at an expected level. I think this squad should be good enough to get 3rd in this league performing at its max, with 6th being the absolute worst place that it should finish in. However I think some of that ignores the fact that while the squad is good on paper, the team is weak in a couple of positions (RB and CM) we also have problems with some players wanting to go (Alderweireld, Eriksen, Rose) and also have had others injured (Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Foyth) or coming back from injury and out of form (Wanyama, Dier, Dele). Some of these problems are now fixing themselves, others need to be addressed by the manager (and perhaps will as the injured/out of form players return).

With just two key buys - by your specification - how many better teams than us would there be? Is it 5 or more? Yes/No will suffice.

Erm I'm not sure that one can be answered with a yes or no. It hugely depends on who the two buys are and also whether our rivals each go and sign 2 players as well. My thoughts here are that if we were to go out and buy a right back and defensive minded midfield player, both of comparable quality to NDombele and the other clubs stood still then we would definitely be right up there in the top 3 (although I think we would need to do the same with another centre half, left back and attacking midfield player to actually be considering winning the league.

I don't really understand this question though to be honest? I'm sure if Poch was given a good budget to go out and get two key players then our results and position would improve as a result anyway, especially as he could then jettison two of our weaker players in our team in Aurier and Winks/Sissoko and replace them with much better players.
 
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I think more than anything, I am finding that this season is showing me I am at a crossroads with regards to some types of people who are supporting my club versus people like me.

First of all, I am finding that how someone views a manager will often shape both their opinion of the club and of some of the supporters following it.
Do you view the manager as nothing more than a handsomely-paid employee whose sole job is to deliver success?
Or do you view the manager as someone whose job is to bring a club forward on and off the pitch, both via results and reputation?
Do you crave a Mourinho, who has little regard for the long-term health of a club as he stays nowhere longer than three or four seasons max, and thus behaves like a selfish, petulant CEO who won't rest until he gets his way whatever the collateral damage?
Or do you crave a Pochettino, who looks to ensure that a club is set to keep growing, embeds a philosophy and attitude into the fabric and helps enhance the club's status internationally via behavior and results?

I believe the definition you choose of a manager above will dictate what you think of Pochettino.
Those who would take the Mourinho route are likely to have little empathy (I was told a while back that good business and empathy are not compatible - a comment I refute BTW) or appreciation for past and will look for blood when things wobble.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If Mourinho were to ever manage this great club, it would take a Fatberg size lump of rich, steaming hypocrisy for me to accept him. A piece of my Tottenham me would fade way, much like it did when the fudging clown shoe from Scumbury rocked up too many years ago; I actually turned down a League Cup Final ticket in 99 because "he" was in charge.

It would -IMO- be selling out what this club is about. It is not about tossers like Mourinho and 3G. It is about the likes of Burkinshaw, Jol, Pochettino and Sir Bill. Men of honor and integrity, men who understood what this club is and men who tried (and try) their hardest to maintain the standards, dignity and pride necessary to be at the helm of this brilliant club.

For the many who seem ready to dispense with Pochettino, sorry, I think you're missing the point personally. It is only my opinion. But answer me this...has any manager other than Burkinshaw bought you the joyous nights and emotions this man has in the last four decades?

There are games which stand out in my mind as being emblems of what we are. The 81 Cup Final replay v Wolves, the Final replay that year, the smashing of Feyenoord 4-2, the smashing of the goons 5-1 in that semi are a few...the 2-2 Battle Of The Bridge is right in there, as are the 4-1 smashing of Liverpool, the 6-2 smashing of Everton and Ajax away in the SF last year.

I will also never ever, EVER forget flying in to Madrid. I had returned from Africa only a few days earlier, and undertook a 24 hour round-trip journey vis New York. Meeting my mate (with whom I go to my 10 or so games a year and have done for a couple decades since my ST days - I have lived abroad for a long time) at the airport was one of the most emotional football moments I have ever had.
We had spoken for years about whether we would ever experience that day in our lives.
We were there.
Experiencing it.
Whatever the disappointment, whatever the costs emotionally and fiscally, we were there and by fudging GHod we were in heaven for most of that day and evening until 9.01pm.

I cannot forget that or the other moments, and I will not. For me, the manager deserves the chance to try and build a side like that one more time, and having learnt where we fell short with this generation, improve it so as the next time we go one step beyond.

There again, I believe the game is about glory and is about doing things with style and a flourish...

How to answer this?

- there is always dichotomy or hypocrisy to being fans, Spurs fans more than most because of our "glory glory" ideals and the "right way" to play the game
- I've sat here for years and looked at people who complained about ticket prices, kit prices or ugly sponsors then would should "just pay player x whatever they want" or "Levy is skint"

You ask a question about has any manager ever made you feel like Poch does, answers and thoughts

- Yes, Jol was the first manager in a long time that connected with us (the fans) and to some extent it was greater than Poch, because we came from a darker place
- I remember that first season when we were hoping we could qualify for Europe for the first time, the excitement vs. the complaining now of "which group in CL we got"
- But I think you missed the person to appreciate in this club, the journey for Spurs hasn't been 5 seasons going from Europa to CL. The journey has been 19, from outside top 10 -> Top 10 -> Europa -> Top 6 -> top 4. From a shed of an old stadium and poor training facilities to one of the best in the entire world, if you want to feel connected to someone, it should be the guy that speaks of spurs with real love, the guy who has made this journey, the guy who isn't going to fudge off to United or wherever, that guy is Levy.

I told you in another thread, I'm not a Poch fan (or hater), I'm a Spurs fan, and what matters is what's best for this club, and there is nothing more than hope/idealization that would say that is Poch now.

If Mourinho raises this club one more level, got us a bigger profile, won us a few trophies that pushed the club from perennial almost to winners, and with Levy's stewardship, in 5 years Jose is gone, Spurs is a title/cup challenging side (with no money doping, no blood money, no artificial winning), that would be too much for you to suffer/stomach?

You are right .. we are different, Poch is an employee who is failing and I think you have to admit some hypocrisy if you want to back him but never want to see Eriksen/Aurier/whoever "spacegoat of the week" is, not play for us again, because it is no different.
 
I know it's not one season, the squad has gradually gotten worse since the summer we sold Walker which ties in quite well with that graph

Except the strikers have actually got better, Son is way better, Lucas has been added, Dele/Lamela offer options and Kane is no worse and Eriksen and most of this team is supposed to be in their prime. We now have Snachez, Dier, Foyth Davies all as options to work with Jan & Toby in the CB roles

Not going to do this again, you can't say every single statistic going wrong, GF, GA, Win/loss, Home, Away is all because of Walker and Dembele who always was limited in max number of games (the guy wasn't fudging Messi).
 
Trouble is squads on paper don't allow for any context whatsoever.


The split, as far as i can see, is between those that think the squad not being improved/refreshed for so long has finally caught up with us and this season is one too many for the manager to keep churning out results Vs those who think the manager should continue to perform at the same level laid down when the squad was at it's peak despit the squad not being improved over a 3 to 4 year period with regards to signings and having actually lost 2 important first XI players (and several others through becoming crocked and or old)

The first group want to see Poch get his long overdue squad refresh whilst the 2nd want to micro analyse every decision he makes with a squad that is clearly on the wane collectively.
I think I tried to post a constructive summary of how I rated our squad in one of the threads on here a week or more back. My thoughts were that the squad is probably a little less good in reality than on paper due to the injuries we've had and the players still here that should've discarded in the Summer.
 
Part of this debate - and it is great that it is generally good-tempered - is that some folk feel that Pochettino's achievements in the league and CL, buy him time when things go wrong. I don't deny or denigrate Pochettino's galvanising effect on the team - but I am concerned that we have been getting steadily worse in the league, for the last 3 seasons, and if confidence falls any more, we will be heading down and down in a negative spiral. Two back to back wins in the league might restart the season, but is anyone confident of that? Are the players? When the MOTD or Sky critics slaughter the performances of some of our players, do you think the players trust the manager to pick the best 11? At the moment I suspect that even Poch's supporters here think he is getting team selection wrong repeatedly.
 
Except the strikers have actually got better, Son is way better, Lucas has been added, Dele/Lamela offer options and Kane is no worse and Eriksen and most of this team is supposed to be in their prime. We now have Snachez, Dier, Foyth Davies all as options to work with Jan & Toby in the CB roles

Not going to do this again, you can't say every single statistic going wrong, GF, GA, Win/loss, Home, Away is all because of Walker and Dembele who always was limited in max number of games (the guy wasn't fudging Messi).

I didn't say it was because Walker and Dembele left, that's only part of it - that's two positions in the starting XI that are weaker, both of which were key to how we play our football.

Our defense has gotten worse, statistically, and in that time we've lost Dembele Dier and Wanyama in the middle of the pitch from our peak team - do you not see that there might be a correlation between the two? Who has Poch been able to bring in to make up for those losses? Winks, Sissoko, Skipp?? Is that an improvement to our team? Never mind that our two ageing CBs have their eye on the exit door and have done the past 2 years considering the contract situations of both - it's plain to see there are reasons why our defensive performance has gotten worse over the past two years and that it is more to do with the hand which Poch has been dealt as opposed to how he has played it.

With regards to attack Alli has been taken out of the role that he was doing so well in to make up the numbers in central midfield because a lack of options/signings, Walker, who was key to our attacking play, was sold and our other attacking full back has gone from worse to worse with age/injuries/mental health issues - so from our peak teams attack that's the width gone, the transitioning between the lines that Dembele brought gone and the attacking third play that Alli brought gone - and on top of that our chief creator that all our attacking play went through has pretty much told everyone he wants to play for another team and is walking away on a free at the end of the season.
 
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How to answer this?

- there is always dichotomy or hypocrisy to being fans, Spurs fans more than most because of our "glory glory" ideals and the "right way" to play the game
- I've sat here for years and looked at people who complained about ticket prices, kit prices or ugly sponsors then would should "just pay player x whatever they want" or "Levy is skint"

You ask a question about has any manager ever made you feel like Poch does, answers and thoughts

- Yes, Jol was the first manager in a long time that connected with us (the fans) and to some extent it was greater than Poch, because we came from a darker place
- I remember that first season when we were hoping we could qualify for Europe for the first time, the excitement vs. the complaining now of "which group in CL we got"
- But I think you missed the person to appreciate in this club, the journey for Spurs hasn't been 5 seasons going from Europa to CL. The journey has been 19, from outside top 10 -> Top 10 -> Europa -> Top 6 -> top 4. From a shed of an old stadium and poor training facilities to one of the best in the entire world, if you want to feel connected to someone, it should be the guy that speaks of spurs with real love, the guy who has made this journey, the guy who isn't going to fudge off to United or wherever, that guy is Levy.

I told you in another thread, I'm not a Poch fan (or hater), I'm a Spurs fan, and what matters is what's best for this club, and there is nothing more than hope/idealization that would say that is Poch now.

If Mourinho raises this club one more level, got us a bigger profile, won us a few trophies that pushed the club from perennial almost to winners, and with Levy's stewardship, in 5 years Jose is gone, Spurs is a title/cup challenging side (with no money doping, no blood money, no artificial winning), that would be too much for you to suffer/stomach?

You are right .. we are different, Poch is an employee who is failing and I think you have to admit some hypocrisy if you want to back him but never want to see Eriksen/Aurier/whoever "spacegoat of the week" is, not play for us again, because it is no different.

First of all, appreciate the depth and detail in your reply. I will address hypocrisy first; I said in a previous thread, and have said numerous times before, that I am going to be a hypocrite in some cases. I don’t believe it is possible not to be one in your 50s, and anyone who claims otherwise is, IMO, being a...well, you get it.

But as to the specifics of what you feel I am being hypocritical about, I fundamentally disagree. It is very, very different from my perspective.

The other part of your response I’d like to address is Mourinho. If he came in, won us a few trophies but did it with his “style” and his manner, my stomach would have a very, very hard time (I explained that - the point doesn’t shift). Would my football hypocrisy have found a way to keep supporting the club under him, and as such have found a way to love winning? Probably. But it would be tainted with dirt.
 
I think more than anything, I am finding that this season is showing me I am at a crossroads with regards to some types of people who are supporting my club versus people like me.

First of all, I am finding that how someone views a manager will often shape both their opinion of the club and of some of the supporters following it.
Do you view the manager as nothing more than a handsomely-paid employee whose sole job is to deliver success?
Or do you view the manager as someone whose job is to bring a club forward on and off the pitch, both via results and reputation?
Do you crave a Mourinho, who has little regard for the long-term health of a club as he stays nowhere longer than three or four seasons max, and thus behaves like a selfish, petulant CEO who won't rest until he gets his way whatever the collateral damage?
Or do you crave a Pochettino, who looks to ensure that a club is set to keep growing, embeds a philosophy and attitude into the fabric and helps enhance the club's status internationally via behavior and results?

I believe the definition you choose of a manager above will dictate what you think of Pochettino.
Those who would take the Mourinho route are likely to have little empathy (I was told a while back that good business and empathy are not compatible - a comment I refute BTW) or appreciation for past and will look for blood when things wobble.

I have said it before and I will say it again. If Mourinho were to ever manage this great club, it would take a Fatberg size lump of rich, steaming hypocrisy for me to accept him. A piece of my Tottenham me would fade way, much like it did when the fudging clown shoe from Scumbury rocked up too many years ago; I actually turned down a League Cup Final ticket in 99 because "he" was in charge.

It would -IMO- be selling out what this club is about. It is not about tossers like Mourinho and 3G. It is about the likes of Burkinshaw, Jol, Pochettino and Sir Bill. Men of honor and integrity, men who understood what this club is and men who tried (and try) their hardest to maintain the standards, dignity and pride necessary to be at the helm of this brilliant club.

For the many who seem ready to dispense with Pochettino, sorry, I think you're missing the point personally. It is only my opinion. But answer me this...has any manager other than Burkinshaw bought you the joyous nights and emotions this man has in the last four decades?

There are games which stand out in my mind as being emblems of what we are. The 81 Cup Final replay v Wolves, the Final replay that year, the smashing of Feyenoord 4-2, the smashing of the goons 5-1 in that semi are a few...the 2-2 Battle Of The Bridge is right in there, as are the 4-1 smashing of Liverpool, the 6-2 smashing of Everton and Ajax away in the SF last year.

I will also never ever, EVER forget flying in to Madrid. I had returned from Africa only a few days earlier, and undertook a 24 hour round-trip journey vis New York. Meeting my mate (with whom I go to my 10 or so games a year and have done for a couple decades since my ST days - I have lived abroad for a long time) at the airport was one of the most emotional football moments I have ever had.
We had spoken for years about whether we would ever experience that day in our lives.
We were there.
Experiencing it.
Whatever the disappointment, whatever the costs emotionally and fiscally, we were there and by fudging GHod we were in heaven for most of that day and evening until 9.01pm.

I cannot forget that or the other moments, and I will not. For me, the manager deserves the chance to try and build a side like that one more time, and having learnt where we fell short with this generation, improve it so as the next time we go one step beyond.

There again, I believe the game is about glory and is about doing things with style and a flourish...


I agree the game is about glory and I feel you can still obtain glory in a defeat, but most fans believe winning is glory, I'd rather we played with style and a flourish than churn out results like the brave sides who have 11 men in their half and cheat their way to victory. When I go to a game I want to see players who can do things I couldn't dream of doing rather than grafters like I was.
 
I think we need to solve the issues of the players going out of contract and those that want to leave and then see where we are changing the manager now is not going to clear up those issues. Who's fault is it that we are in this situation is open to debate but I would say its mostly how football is now with free transfers maybe If levy would have offered them bigger contracts 2 or 3 years ago they would have signed them.Maybe not.I does seem that at some point toby verts and eriksen were offered improved contracts and when they didn't sign they should have been maybe been shipped out.Hard to do this with 3 world class players and you wouldn't necessarily trust levy to replace them properly.

I think possibly what happen with those three is that a decision was made (collective or otherwise) that with the budget we had to buy/sell players being what it was (net 0) that keeping them for the remainder of their deals was the better option as we wouldn't have been able to replace their quality
 
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