Ryan Mason

[parklane1]

I thought I would move the discussion on Mason to his thread to keep ITK for what little ITK there actually is.

I think young players will always make mistakes, but I actually think Mason is quite tactically disciplined. Yes there are better midfielders out there, but there are better players in all of our positions and the criticism that Mason gets over and above say the criticism that Ericksen gets is unwarranted imho.

I think you misconstrue my point about being "one of our own". What I think that this should do is that we give the player some time before writing him off which some people are already doing. He's had one season. We give foreign signings much more time e.g. Lamela and Modric. Hell we even gave Acimovic more time before writing him off!

My comment about "one of our own". was not directed at you more generally as I hear/see it used a lot. Of course young players make mistakes ( I spent decades working with them) but to be honest he is not that young anymore (24) as I said Mason is being asked to do a job he is not really suited too. A CM should have a player who can read the defensive side of a game and neither Bentaleb or Mason are good at that ( I have already said Bentaleb may become better at this) but Mason ( imo) is unlikely to do that.

He may offer us more as a forward looking player but ( imo) the likes of Eriksen, Dembele are better then him at this time.

 

[NWND]

Actually statistical analysis showed Spurs were one of the top PL teams for interception of attempted passes in midfield last season but that when those balls got through they were more likely than other teams to result in shots or goals. Suggests the defence was the problem and not the midfield shielding.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Actually statistical analysis showed Spurs were one of the top PL teams for interception of attempted passes in midfield last season but that when those balls got through they were more likely than other teams to result in shots or goals. Suggests the defence was the problem and not the midfield shielding.

I didn't see this NWND. That's quite interesting! Do you have a link?

 

[parklane1]

Actually statistical analysis showed Spurs were one of the top PL teams for interception of attempted passes in midfield last season but that when those balls got through they were more likely than other teams to result in shots or goals. Suggests the defence was the problem and not the midfield shielding.

Good points, but the biggest problem from our CM last season was the failure to track runners who picked up the balls unmarked.

 

[mazda80]

It is amazing the bashing Mason is on the receiving end of,
this is very similar to the situation with Rose 2 seasons ago.
Last season Rose was one of our 3 best players in my opinion and everyone is all of the sudden the ones supporting him in his bad season...

Last season was Mason's first in the Premier League, I think he did quite fine and in some games excellent.
He is still a Young player finding his feet in the League and I believe there is plenty room for him to develop and I also think it
is realistic for him to become better with time, his good energy and attitude on the field is also a factor I think is undervalued.

Anyway, give the kid a break, he is still Young, new in the League and has all the potential to become better with a season under his belt.

and then COYS

 

[DublinSpur]

Actually statistical analysis showed Spurs were one of the top PL teams for interception of attempted passes in midfield last season but that when those balls got through they were more likely than other teams to result in shots or goals. Suggests the defence was the problem and not the midfield shielding.

Just quoting you from the ITK thread, NWND, as I think we're trying to shift the discussion to here.

Like yourself, I saw that statistical analysis when it was first posted to the board a few days back and - for me - it was a perfect example of the ambiguity of stats... how something apparently black-and-white can actually be interpreted in multiple ways. Because I saw something entirely different in them.

We intercepted more passes in midfield than most teams but - crucially - intercepted fewer of those passes that resulted in shots. Some read that as an issue with the defence. To me it is equally likely to be an issue with the defensive positioning of the midfield. Our midfielders are harrying the opposition and pressing them high up the pitch resulting in sloppy passes and lots of interceptions in their half... but they are rarely in the correct position to intercept the important and dangerous through-balls that create goal-scoring opportunities.

It's probably a bit of both. Our defence definitely needed tightening up this summer - and I think / hope we've done that.

But (IMO) neither Bentaleb nor Mason displayed a shred of defensive awareness last season, and you need at least one of your central midfielders to have some understanding of defensive positioning.

People say we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder because we use this "double pivot" system. But I'm not asking for a defensive midfielder, I'm asking for a midfielder who has some defensive awareness, that's all. Which - incidentally - the double pivot demands two of! And right now, neither of ours do. Bentaleb, however, is a league above Mason in terms of quality - so it's Mason we need to look at replacing with someone who can help cover defence - maybe teaching both Bentaleb and Mason a thing or two in the process.

I'd definitely want Mason to stay at the club for at least another season though. I like the guy's perseverance and I'd like to see him get plenty of game time in the cups, as well as league games against less threatening opposition. Maybe he can challenge to get back into the first team (perhaps further up the field).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Just quoting you from the ITK thread, NWND, as I think we're trying to shift the discussion to here.

Like yourself, I saw that statistical analysis when it was first posted to the board a few days back and - for me - it was a perfect example of the ambiguity of stats... how something apparently black-and-white can actually be interpreted in multiple ways. Because I saw something entirely different in them.

We intercepted more passes in midfield than most teams but - crucially - intercepted fewer of those passes that resulted in shots. Some read that as an issue with the defence. To me it is equally likely to be an issue with the defensive positioning of the midfield. Our midfielders are harrying the opposition and pressing them high up the pitch resulting in sloppy passes and lots of interceptions in their half... but they are rarely in the correct position to intercept the important and dangerous through-balls that create goal-scoring opportunities.

It's probably a bit of both. Our defence definitely needed tightening up this summer - and I think / hope we've done that.

But (IMO) neither Bentaleb nor Mason displayed a shred of defensive awareness last season, and you need at least one of your central midfielders to have some understanding of defensive positioning.

People say we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder because we use this "double pivot" system. But I'm not asking for a defensive midfielder, I'm asking for a midfielder who has some defensive awareness, that's all. Which - incidentally - the double pivot demands two of! And right now, neither of ours do. Bentaleb, however, is a league above Mason in terms of quality - so it's Mason we need to look at replacing with someone who can help cover defence - maybe teaching both Bentaleb and Mason a thing or two in the process.

I'd definitely want Mason to stay at the club for at least another season though. I like the guy's perseverance and I'd like to see him get plenty of game time in the cups, as well as league games against less threatening opposition. Maybe he can challenge to get back into the first team (perhaps further up the field).

If we can get a better player in then great but I for one havent seen a viable alterantive who was better than mason last season. People have bene pushing McCarthy but Mason played him off the park in both games last season and has better all round midfield stats in a side that is arguably more attacking.

 

[NWND]

I didn't see this NWND. That's quite interesting! Do you have a link?

Posted it in the Mason thread

 

[NWND]

This was first posted on Spurs Community.

From the most recent Statsbomb article. Maybe some insight into why Poch started with the defense this transfer season.

"The longest passes allowed are generally all German teams (see below for more on league differences) and then some bad Spanish teams and then Tottenham, who are right besides Augsburg. Only Man United and strangely QPR are better at stopping passes through the midfield than Tottenham, the main problem with their defense was the passes that get through are long and dangerous, and are converted into shots at a higher rate than any other EPL team. This would suggest at first glance that the backline is more of a problem than the midfield". - See more at: http://statsbomb.com/2015/07/contro...-milner-might-not-be-the-answer-for-liverpool"/#sthash.1w4btQGy.dpuf

 

[NWND]

Just quoting you from the ITK thread, NWND, as I think we're trying to shift the discussion to here.

Like yourself, I saw that statistical analysis when it was first posted to the board a few days back and - for me - it was a perfect example of the ambiguity of stats... how something apparently black-and-white can actually be interpreted in multiple ways. Because I saw something entirely different in them.

We intercepted more passes in midfield than most teams but - crucially - intercepted fewer of those passes that resulted in shots. Some read that as an issue with the defence. To me it is equally likely to be an issue with the defensive positioning of the midfield. Our midfielders are harrying the opposition and pressing them high up the pitch resulting in sloppy passes and lots of interceptions in their half... but they are rarely in the correct position to intercept the important and dangerous through-balls that create goal-scoring opportunities.

It's probably a bit of both. Our defence definitely needed tightening up this summer - and I think / hope we've done that.

But (IMO) neither Bentaleb nor Mason displayed a shred of defensive awareness last season, and you need at least one of your central midfielders to have some understanding of defensive positioning.

People say we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder because we use this "double pivot" system. But I'm not asking for a defensive midfielder, I'm asking for a midfielder who has some defensive awareness, that's all. Which - incidentally - the double pivot demands two of! And right now, neither of ours do. Bentaleb, however, is a league above Mason in terms of quality - so it's Mason we need to look at replacing with someone who can help cover defence - maybe teaching both Bentaleb and Mason a thing or two in the process.

I'd definitely want Mason to stay at the club for at least another season though. I like the guy's perseverance and I'd like to see him get plenty of game time in the cups, as well as league games against less threatening opposition. Maybe he can challenge to get back into the first team (perhaps further up the field).

I think you're right. I think both Bentaleb and Mason did get cut-out pressing high up the pitch at times, which would leave us exposed on occasion. However, the point that I keep going back to is that this is how Poch wants his teams to play. I don't think Poch wants a defensive midfielder, someone that constantly sits in front of the defence precisely to cut out those situations. He wants the whole team to defend as a unit, so the midfielders push high, but what he needs is defenders with high concentration and awareness to anticipate where the press is going to fail and cover accordingly. I think that we have too many defenders with poor concentration and awareness levels and who are too panicked under pressure, for Poch's system to work defensively.

I think Rose is very good at anticipating danger and covering at the back. I think Vertonghen is a good sweeper, but needs a good stopper alongside him. I think Alderweireld fits that description. I think for Southampton, he seemed to anticipate danger pretty well and step out to stop breaches in the midfield. I can't honestly say i've seen any of Wimmer, but I'm hoping again he is someone who has the awareness to anticipate and concentrate better. I think one of the reasons why Walker may be on borrowed time under Poch is his complete inability to concentrate or be tactically aware of developing situations. We'll have to see if Trippier is better in this regard while still providing an offensive outlet (i'm hopeful of this).

My point RE: Mason is that I'm not sure Poch relies on his midfield to be positionally aware. I think he relies on an aggressive press, which forces errors and from which the ball must be released quickly. Occasionally this is obviously going to be breached and we are then relying on the defence to be more aware of the situations as they develop.

What I would say, however, is that I think you can press intelligently and unintelligently. I do think Mason ran about like a bit of a headless chicken at times. I think though that he must have been desperate to impress and I think tactical awareness is something that is certainly developed with exposure to top-level football, something Mason has had a particular lack of. I do think someone like McCarthy being brought in would be beneficial, while we see if Mason can add this maturity to his game.

I agree we could do with at least one midfield enforcement. More for squad depth than anything else. I don't agree, however, that Mason is some kind of glaring weak-point standing out in our team, like some on here make out.

 

[Jurgen the German]

My comment about "one of our own". was not directed at you more generally as I hear/see it used a lot. Of course young players make mistakes ( I spent decades working with them) but to be honest he is not that young anymore (24) as I said Mason is being asked to do a job he is not really suited too. A CM should have a player who can read the defensive side of a game and neither Bentaleb or Mason are good at that ( I have already said Bentaleb may become better at this) but Mason ( imo) is unlikely to do that.

He may offer us more as a forward looking player but ( imo) the likes of Eriksen, Dembele are better then him at this time.

Agreed. I see Mason as a squad player and someone we need to upgrade on.

 

[Bullet]

This was first posted on Spurs Community.

From the most recent Statsbomb article. Maybe some insight into why Poch started with the defense this transfer season.

"The longest passes allowed are generally all German teams (see below for more on league differences) and then some bad Spanish teams and then Tottenham, who are right besides Augsburg. Only Man United and strangely QPR are better at stopping passes through the midfield than Tottenham, the main problem with their defense was the passes that get through are long and dangerous, and are converted into shots at a higher rate than any other EPL team. This would suggest at first glance that the backline is more of a problem than the midfield". - See more at: http://statsbomb.com/2015/07/contro...-milner-might-not-be-the-answer-for-liverpool"/#sthash.1w4btQGy.dpuf

The statsbomb guy was at pains to say that the above was only "at first glance" and was very cursory, he could spend weeks analysing it, so the above was only a bit of super rough thought, not an answer that the stats strongly implied... you know what I mean, I can't be arsed to type it all out... and that would only lead to a huge circular argument where pedants regurgitate the same old tripe about double pivots and regression to mean

 

[parklane1]

Just quoting you from the ITK thread, NWND, as I think we're trying to shift the discussion to here.

Like yourself, I saw that statistical analysis when it was first posted to the board a few days back and - for me - it was a perfect example of the ambiguity of stats... how something apparently black-and-white can actually be interpreted in multiple ways. Because I saw something entirely different in them.

We intercepted more passes in midfield than most teams but - crucially - intercepted fewer of those passes that resulted in shots. Some read that as an issue with the defence. To me it is equally likely to be an issue with the defensive positioning of the midfield. Our midfielders are harrying the opposition and pressing them high up the pitch resulting in sloppy passes and lots of interceptions in their half... but they are rarely in the correct position to intercept the important and dangerous through-balls that create goal-scoring opportunities.

It's probably a bit of both. Our defence definitely needed tightening up this summer - and I think / hope we've done that.

But (IMO) neither Bentaleb nor Mason displayed a shred of defensive awareness last season, and you need at least one of your central midfielders to have some understanding of defensive positioning.

People say we don't need a dedicated defensive midfielder because we use this "double pivot" system. But I'm not asking for a defensive midfielder, I'm asking for a midfielder who has some defensive awareness, that's all. Which - incidentally - the double pivot demands two of! And right now, neither of ours do. Bentaleb, however, is a league above Mason in terms of quality - so it's Mason we need to look at replacing with someone who can help cover defence - maybe teaching both Bentaleb and Mason a thing or two in the process.

I'd definitely want Mason to stay at the club for at least another season though. I like the guy's perseverance and I'd like to see him get plenty of game time in the cups, as well as league games against less threatening opposition. Maybe he can challenge to get back into the first team (perhaps further up the field).

Sums it up for me, I hear some saying a DM is not needed in our CM as it would not fit what Poch wants to do. Like you I am not asking for a dedicated DM who will do nothing but sit in front of the back four, what we really need is for one of our two CM to have a defensive mind and keep a eye on what the opposing players are doing.

At the moment neither Bentaleb or Mason have this ability in the game, of the two Mason is the worst at this part of the game and he gets caught ball watching while runners get in behind him. We should keep Mason ( for sure) but we need another player to go alongside Bentaleb otherwise our ( new) back four will struggle once again.

 

[NWND]

The statsbomb guy was at pains to say that the above was only "at first glance" and was very cursory, he could spend weeks analysing it, so the above was only a bit of super rough thought, not an answer that the stats strongly implied... you know what I mean, I can't be arsed to type it all out... and that would only lead to a huge circular argument where pedants regurgitate the same old tripe about double pivots and regression to mean

Of course, but it woukd appear from our transfer activity that Poch, Mitchell etc have identified defence as the priority over midfield this summer.

 

[Yiddo]

A 3 man midfield with 1 being the anchor would (imo) do wonders. Someone who can break up play and get the ball to one of the creative players as soon as possible.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A 3 man midfield with 1 being the anchor would (imo) do wonders. Someone who can break up play and get the ball to one of the creative players as soon as possible.

Thats how we played against arsenal, everton and west from with Dembele, Mason and Bentelab are we played by far and away our best football

Yet those 3 get criticised for not being able to break up play and in the case of Dembele not passing quick

The combination of the three with the strong technical and creative aspect they have worked din our favour much more than having a traditional stopper and we looked genuinely exciting

 

[Roy1983]

Spoke to his dad today. Ryan trained 11-6 today along with a few others who didn't play 90 minutes on Saturday.

Slight niggle after a strong challenge with Shaw but good to go for Saturday he hopes.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Spoke to his dad today. Ryan trained 11-6 today along with a few others who didn't play 90 minutes on Saturday.

Slight niggle after a strong challenge with Shaw but good to go for Saturday he hopes.

Great stuff.

 

[Cochise]

A 3 man midfield with 1 being the anchor would (imo) do wonders. Someone who can break up play and get the ball to one of the creative players as soon as possible.

Looking at the heat maps from the game against UTD and the footage from the Real match, I would say that we are playing with a 3 man midfield atm. Dembele has been sitting very deep and working a lot closer to the pivot than Eriksen on the other side.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Spoke to his dad today. Ryan trained 11-6 today along with a few others who didn't play 90 minutes on Saturday.

Slight niggle after a strong challenge with Shaw but good to go for Saturday he hopes.

Yeah, but you don't rate Ryan, so why do you care anyway?