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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

robp135 said:
That will sort it.

www.bbc.com

Asylum seekers told rape and harassment illegal in UK in new Home Office booklet

The nine-page booklet covers issues including respect in public, sex and consent, and gender equality.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
There should be translated versions available. Although I can imagine the outrage coming from that.


"That will sort it".
Sort what? If you want to stir something up, at least articulate what that something is to which you are referring.

Look, there’s a very valid discussion to be had a) about immigration in general, and b) about immigrantion from countires with different cultures amd laws to our own and about how theose immigrants can be helped to integrate; (hey let’s tell them our laws, oh no, don't, that’s bad) - and you don't have to go as far as Africa/Asia/the Indian sub-continent to find such differing cultures and beliefs, regardless of skin colour. Many such beliefs and backward ways of treating women are on our own doorstep.
This initiative doesnt in any way mean that all immigrants are rapists and paedophiles; which is what most of the media coverage - mainsrtream and social - implies. Yet that is how it is presented. But of course you know that.

Yes there have been absolutely horrific cases of women being assaulted and raped by immigrants, and I hate any attempts to downplay that, it is beyond awful. I mean of course I would hate it, I am a woman and I find the whole thought of it horrendous. But I equally hate the rhetoric that puts all immigrants/asylum seekers in the same bucket as those terrible offenders, as if all immigrants are the same. In the same way that I should not place all 'white British' men in the same likely-to-offend bucket as some individual 'white British' men.

The problem is men. Full stop.
Yes we need to find a way not to facilitate such men entering our society - ghod knows we have enough of them here already. But equally we must not tar every male - immigrant or otherwise - with the same shameful brush.
Stop trying to stir things up.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
There should be translated versions available. Although I can imagine the outrage coming from that.


"That will sort it".
Sort what? If you want to stir something up, at least articulate what that something is to which you are referring.

Look, there’s a very valid discussion to be had a) about immigration in general, and b) about immigrantion from countires with different cultures amd laws to our own and about how theose immigrants can be helped to integrate; (hey let’s tell them our laws, oh no, don't, that’s bad) - and you don't have to go as far as Africa/Asia/the Indian sub-continent to find such differing cultures and beliefs, regardless of skin colour. Many such beliefs and backward ways of treating women are on our own doorstep.
This initiative doesnt in any way mean that all immigrants are rapists and paedophiles; which is what most of the media coverage - mainsrtream and social - implies. Yet that is how it is presented. But of course you know that.

Yes there have been absolutely horrific cases of women being assaulted and raped by immigrants, and I hate any attempts to downplay that, it is beyond awful. I mean of course I would hate it, I am a woman and I find the whole thought of it horrendous. But I equally hate the rhetoric that puts all immigrants/asylum seekers in the same bucket as those terrible offenders, as if all immigrants are the same. In the same way that I should not place all 'white British' men in the same likely-to-offend bucket as some individual 'white British' men.

The problem is men. Full stop.
Yes we need to find a way not to facilitate such men entering our society - ghod knows we have enough of them here already. But equally we must not tar every male - immigrant or otherwise - with the same shameful brush.
Stop trying to stir things up.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. There are, of course, plenty of men in this country who already treat women poorly, and there are racists here too—far too many. Any is too many. But we have also made progress, and there are many great things about this country. You wouldn’t have so many people wanting to come here if it were as bad as some people like to portray it.

At the very least, we have laws that state that women and gay people cannot be discriminated against. There are many countries and cultures where that simply isn’t the case, and it isn’t wrong to highlight that.

We’ve also had multiple female Prime Ministers. Some countries wouldn’t dream of electing a female leader. Even in the United States, where the ideal is that anyone can achieve anything and reinvent themselves, apparently that doesn’t extend to being Commander-in-Chief.

Is this country perfect? Not even close, and I’d never pretend that it is. Even things that some men might consider very minor, such as catcalling and wolf-whistling, are unacceptable. The guidance quite rightly points out that, at the very least, we try to treat women and gay people with respect and recognise that discriminating against them is wrong.

If you don’t agree with those values, respect them, or make an effort to integrate into the society you’ve chosen to live in, then perhaps Britain simply isn’t for you.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
There should be translated versions available. Although I can imagine the outrage coming from that.


"That will sort it".
Sort what? If you want to stir something up, at least articulate what that something is to which you are referring.

Look, there’s a very valid discussion to be had a) about immigration in general, and b) about immigrantion from countires with different cultures amd laws to our own and about how theose immigrants can be helped to integrate; (hey let’s tell them our laws, oh no, don't, that’s bad) - and you don't have to go as far as Africa/Asia/the Indian sub-continent to find such differing cultures and beliefs, regardless of skin colour. Many such beliefs and backward ways of treating women are on our own doorstep.
This initiative doesnt in any way mean that all immigrants are rapists and paedophiles; which is what most of the media coverage - mainsrtream and social - implies. Yet that is how it is presented. But of course you know that.

Yes there have been absolutely horrific cases of women being assaulted and raped by immigrants, and I hate any attempts to downplay that, it is beyond awful. I mean of course I would hate it, I am a woman and I find the whole thought of it horrendous. But I equally hate the rhetoric that puts all immigrants/asylum seekers in the same bucket as those terrible offenders, as if all immigrants are the same. In the same way that I should not place all 'white British' men in the same likely-to-offend bucket as some individual 'white British' men.

The problem is men. Full stop.
Yes we need to find a way not to facilitate such men entering our society - ghod knows we have enough of them here already. But equally we must not tar every male - immigrant or otherwise - with the same shameful brush.
Stop trying to stir things up.
Click to expand...

Outstanding post.

Jurgen the German said:
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. There are, of course, plenty of men in this country who already treat women poorly, and there are racists here too—far too many. Any is too many. But we have also made progress, and there are many great things about this country. You wouldn’t have so many people wanting to come here if it were as bad as some people like to portray it.

At the very least, we have laws that state that women and gay people cannot be discriminated against. There are many countries and cultures where that simply isn’t the case, and it isn’t wrong to highlight that.

We’ve also had multiple female Prime Ministers. Some countries wouldn’t dream of electing a female leader. Even in the United States, where the ideal is that anyone can achieve anything and reinvent themselves, apparently that doesn’t extend to being Commander-in-Chief.

Is this country perfect? Not even close, and I’d never pretend that it is. Even things that some men might consider very minor, such as catcalling and wolf-whistling, are unacceptable. The guidance quite rightly points out that, at the very least, we try to treat women and gay people with respect and recognise that discriminating against them is wrong.

If you don’t agree with those values, respect them, or make an effort to integrate into the society you’ve chosen to live in, then perhaps Britain simply isn’t for you.
Click to expand...

I don’t quite understand your argument. Are you advocating deporting white British men who don’t adhere to our laws and cultural norms?
 
Jurgen the German said:
At the very least, we have laws that state that women and gay people cannot be discriminated against. There are many countries and cultures where that simply isn’t the case, and it isn’t wrong to highlight that.
Click to expand...
I suppose the argument is that someone has come on to make a point about having to or at least remind the foreign nationals of those laws and values, when in fact the whole world over has and is reminded of those laws including British nationals, it wasn't the flex the OP was making out.

No one is saying this country is a bad place to live, I think you will find many of us keep reminding people (weirdly the more right) that the UK is not a dead as they make out, especially when ref'ing to places like London
 
Mikey10 said:
Outstanding post.



I don’t quite understand your argument. Are you advocating deporting white British men who don’t adhere to our laws and cultural norms?
Click to expand...

My argument is that people who migrate to this country should align with our values and social norms, rather than expecting the country to change to accommodate them.

Can I ask why you’ve brought race into this? I never mentioned race. I’m talking about a men’s issue, not a race issue. I think it would be legally difficult to deport men who were born in this country and have lived here all their lives. However, we should continue to reinforce the message that discrimination against women, or any other group is wrong.
 
Anyone who moves to another country should respect the laws and culture of that country and try to assimilate as much as possible.
That includes the British who move abroad.
As discussed elsewhere it is our intention to retire to Spain in a few years, not to sit in a British pub eating haggis, square sausage and drinking irn bru ordered in an accent no one can understand.
It's a simple message, try and fit in.
 
I watched Charlie Wilsons War last night, first time I have watched it through (Hoffmann was so good) and it got me to thinking how much the so called "good guys" of the West have actually fcuked and splintered the world in the last 50 years and then eulogise to those we fudged over about how they should live having subjected them to unthinkable ills. Ultimately we are in part massive hypocrites in it all to a point
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
I watched Charlie Wilsons War last night, first time I have watched it through (Hoffmann was so good) and it got me to thinking how much the so called "good guys" of the West have actually fcuked and splintered the world in the last 50 years and then eulogise to those we fudged over about how they should live having subjected them to unthinkable ills. Ultimately we are in part massive hypocrites in it all to a point
Click to expand...

Love that film, and most everything by Aaron Sorkin.
For a deeper, and no less entertaining (if rather depressing), dive into the story, Adam Curtis' docs Bitter Lake and The Power of Nightmares on iPlayer are well worth a watch.
 
kendoddsdadsdog said:
Love that film, and most everything by Aaron Sorkin.
For a deeper, and no less entertaining (if rather depressing), dive into the story, Adam Curtis' docs Bitter Lake and The Power of Nightmares on iPlayer are well worth a watch.
Click to expand...

Thanks for those, I will have a look

I think the "good v evil" narrative has been sown and eaten up without people really diving into the horrors that these people have had to endure. The profound comments from the film were half the population of Afgan back then post Russia war was under 14, US had gone in, helped then left with no plan, imagine the horrors that had sown themselves into those minds, seeing their parents murdered, unborn kid killed in the womb.

The whole thing is far more complicated than the simplistic takes you see on a daily basis
 
Frankly an absolutely horrendous response to someone on social media, which tells you exactly what these people think of those on PIP, suggesting mental illness and then applying it to his example. Sorry for anyone one on here who are fans of this mob, but Fcuk me

1787309578549.png
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
I suppose the argument is that someone has come on to make a point about having to or at least remind the foreign nationals of those laws and values, when in fact the whole world over has and is reminded of those laws including British nationals, it wasn't the flex the OP was making out.

No one is saying this country is a bad place to live, I think you will find many of us keep reminding people (weirdly the more right) that the UK is not a dead as they make out, especially when ref'ing to places like London
Click to expand...

I’ve seen negative feedback in the media to the guidelines published by the Home Office. More than anything I find them to be helpful. We’re not a dictatorship, we’re not saying that people have to live by these norms or they’ll be thrown out, but it’s helpful to immigrants to have a good understanding of what the UK is like and the values that we hold. We should be proud of the good values and norms we have in this country whilst acknowledging the work isn’t finished.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I’ve seen negative feedback in the media to the guidelines published by the Home Office. More than anything I find them to be helpful. We’re not a dictatorship, we’re not saying that people have to live by these norms or they’ll be thrown out, but it’s helpful to immigrants to have a good understanding of what the UK is like and the values that we hold. We should be proud of the good values and norms we have in this country whilst acknowledging the work isn’t finished.
Click to expand...

Well this is it, the world over needs to do better
 
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