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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Glenda's Legs said:
I do worry that we are going to see the baby being thrown out with the bathwater here.
Huge strides have been made in improviing police behaviour in respect of things like racism and misogyny, but there is still a long way to go until there is true equality of treatment and outcome across the board.
Whatever decision making process was employed in this particular case needs to be investigated, as will happen through the IOPC enquiry.
Right now there seems to be a lot of knee-jerking as to 'this needs to change' or "that needs to change". Let's just see what the IOPC recommends before making changes which might be detrimental to the work that has been done thus far.
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Its like anything in life when there is a tragic incident, is this truly indicative of the entire police force? I am unsure personally so I am keen to see what the IOPC reports, you can't fast forward to action on any of this so I don't see what the baying for blood does at such a time, but ultimately you want to see consequence and reform in play after such an event.

Unfortunately people can't separately the emotion from the reality, even when they are not directly involved or impacted, is this also indicative of the wider Sikh community? In my experience of being around it, absolutely not, but there needs a calm voice that says that, not one that calls for rage, not one that talks about cultural differences being at the heart of it, because this is the same community post Brexit who provided thousands of meals to lorry drivers who were impacted by Dover delays, which is ironic when you know where Brexit came form the the master voice with it all
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Its like anything in life when there is a tragic incident, is this truly indicative of the entire police force? I am unsure personally so I am keen to see what the IOPC reports, you can't fast forward to action on any of this so I don't see what the baying for blood does at such a time, but ultimately you want to see consequence and reform in play after such an event.
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Well for certain people baying for blood might help win a by-election in the next couple of weeks.
 
Another faux outrage story

Anyone can get screened, I have, I would recommend any man to, encouraging those that are at higher risk is not excluding others, screening is not a drug, it is however free for all.

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LutonSpurs said:
Oh wow. And you can reply to me clearly. You could respund to the gonads you posted. Not sure what your poor mother has to do with that.
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This is your MO. You get confused in your arguments and tangled in your conversations when it is pointed out you go fudging mental and abusive and there is little point taking anything further with you.

You have all the charm of the inside of a zookeepers bucket.

Enjoy the summer with your mind bending drugs.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Another faux outrage story

Anyone can get screened, I have, I would recommend any man to, encouraging those that are at higher risk is not excluding others, screening is not a drug, it is however free for all.

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For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
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That is shocking.
Screening is being offered based on risk factors, that's all.
But it is not going to be offered to all men over a particular age as a matter of course. Can you just ask your GP to be screened if there is no medical reason to do so?
 
Lost Mango said:
How are they individually? What is denied them or in what situation are they subject to racism.

I live a fairly privileged middle class existence, although I have worked extensively across Africa and other communities where I was the only white person for miles, but I can't see what constitutes actual racism against individuals in the white community. I can't think of names they are called that equate to the N word or the P word, I can't recall seeing pubs or shops with the equivalent signs of 'no irish, no p***, no dogs' on the door. I can't recall even when living within the Blackbird Leys riots in Oxford in 1991 any overt issue with white people, just the police.

What constitutes racism against white people on an individual basis based purely on their skin colour rather than their ethnicity (Irish, gypsy, traveller, Romanian, Pole etc) or religion?
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It's irrelevant in this context - you are applying logic and nuance as first line arguments against propaganda; that doesn't work, because it's talking at, rather than to, the other parties.

Reform have already done the anti Romanian, Hungarian, Albanian, European division. They've won those battles, emotionally, whilst the other side argued about details they secured votes with emotions.
Now they are down to an even more basic level - skin colour; and an even more abstract demon - people hardly anyone actually sees, experiences, or is affected by.
That last bit isn't reductionist - it's the opposite; the scared/angry/aggrieved person (which is most people in the country, because most of our living standards are declining in the past 15 years) will fill in the gaps to create whichever demon fits to satisfy their own needs.

Which is exactly the same thing I've been trying to make @LutonSpurs aware of.

I'd highly recommend reading;
Carl Jung on loneliness
Pomerantsev on Censorship through noise
Hoffer on the hatted other
And
Satre on self invention.

Then combine all those principles, apply them to the life of a Reform voter, and then apply your own arguments and positions against that position - see what result you get.
I'd be fascinated to see what the outcome is.
 
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monkeybarry said:
It's irrelevant in this context - you are applying logic and nuance as first line arguments against propaganda; that doesn't work, because it's talking at, rather than to, the other parties.
Which is exactly the same thing I've been trying to make @LutonSpurs aware of.

I'd highly recommend reading;
Carl Jung on loneliness
Pomerantsev on Censorship through noise
Hoffer on the hatted other
And
Satre on self invention.

Then combine all those principles, apply them to the life of a Reform voter, and then apply your own arguments and positions against that position - see what result you get.
I'd be fascinated to see what the outcome is.
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I agree with ALOT of what you are saying, where I can't agree fully is that its everyone elses responsibility except the person who has bigoted views and that everything needs to be accommodated, I get engaging with people who are confused, not bigoted and just fed up, but when the person is beyond the pale, has on interest and is basically just wanting to blame people with a different skin colour or culture, then there isn't many options left for debate, in those cases.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
I agree with ALOT of what you are saying, where I can't agree fully is that its everyone elses responsibility except the person who has bigoted views and that everything needs to be accommodated, I get engaging with people who are confused, not bigoted and just fed up, but when the person is beyond the pale, has on interest and is basically just wanting to blame people with a different skin colour or culture, then there isn't many options left for debate, in those cases.
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Agree entirely.
And I'm not talking about the people that are too far gone to understand anything other than emotion and propaganda.

Reform had 3.8m votes last month; are all at that point? I don't think so. So of them are, but most are not; most are being dupped or beyond caring.
Those are the ones to speak to.

This is only point where I am uncertain about being correct here - maybe they are beyond change in their view and/or steadfast in it. It would be arrogant and anti democratic to dismiss their vote just because I find it disgusting.
If so, maybe we just have to accept that we're going to have Reform governance soon.
Actually, now I think about it as I'm typing this - 3.8m is what, 8% of the electorate? Do I think appx 1:10 Brits are anti foreigner, anti non Caucasian, imperialistic... actually yes I do. That's a sobering and upsetting thought.
 
thfcsteff said:
Henry Norwalk's family said this: “We want to use Henry’s heartbreaking story to make change for the better. We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. We want his story to help make our streets safer for everyone.“

Nigel Farage said this:
“What does he say? I can’t breathe.
“Familiar words. Remember career criminal George Floyd, who died in appalling circumstances in Midwest America a few years ago.
“Remember the reaction to that and the way the police behaved? Within a few days Keir Starmer was taking the knee. Black Lives Matter exploded all over the country. Churchill’s statue was defaced, the cenotaph was vandalised. And yet, what has the public reaction been from our leaders and politicians, and indeed, to be frank, much of the media to this? “Silence, absolute silence. Proof, if ever there was any, that we are living in a two-tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities.”

What is there that is being 'wildly misinterpreted'? It seems pretty clear to me what Farage is doing. It seems pretty clear what the Norwalk family is saying.
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It’s been represented as comments about immigration by Farage which is not. It’s being presented as a defense of the police by the Father, which it’s not.
 
johnola said:
This is your MO. You get confused in your arguments and tangled in your conversations when it is pointed out you go fudging mental and abusive and there is little point taking anything further with you.

You have all the charm of the inside of a zookeepers bucket.

Enjoy the summer with your mind bending drugs.
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My charm isn't the debate. Nor are my occasional spliff. And abusive is what you are doing pal.

I made it clear to you that I felt the police need to also be held to account. You seemed to disagree and now are avoiding accepting you said that. Bought up your personal circumstances to explain why you can't reply and then still replied. Genuinely odd behaviour but very much on form for you.

And I'm not sure the summer will be much fun. Farage wants race riots and I worry he will get them.
 
monkeybarry said:
It's irrelevant in this context - you are applying logic and nuance as first line arguments against propaganda; that doesn't work, because it's talking at, rather than to, the other parties.

Reform have already done the anti Romanian, Hungarian, Albanian, European division. They've won those battles, emotionally, whilst the other side argued about details they secured votes with emotions.
Now they are down to an even more basic level - skin colour; and an even more abstract demon - people hardly anyone actually sees, experiences, or is affected by.
That last bit isn't reductionist - it's the opposite; the scared/angry/aggrieved person (which is most people in the country, because most of our living standards are declining in the past 15 years) will fill in the gaps to create whichever demon fits to satisfy their own needs.

Which is exactly the same thing I've been trying to make @LutonSpurs aware of.

I'd highly recommend reading;
Carl Jung on loneliness
Pomerantsev on Censorship through noise
Hoffer on the hatted other
And
Satre on self invention.

Then combine all those principles, apply them to the life of a Reform voter, and then apply your own arguments and positions against that position - see what result you get.
I'd be fascinated to see what the outcome is.
Click to expand...

We don't actually disagree on this. However you telling me how to deal with racism was my contention. I don't have to embrace any views that are discrimatory. And I don't believe I should.
 
There's a key difference between me understanding irrational hate, to me pretending to agree with some of it for the greater good. It feels like that is being asked of me.

I understand why a lot of evil acts occur. I disagree with them unequivocally. That's the right way for me.
 
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