Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[MartyFunkhouser]

I suspect your not up for putting in place physical barriers that would prevent the boats from being able to get to shore. So the only option is to completely remove the incentive structure

In what way? What physical barriers are you talking? I would not be against anything if it made sense but I am unsure what physical barrier is?

This means the possibility of being able to ever build a life in Britain is completely removed if you enter illegally. Along with heavily prosecuting businesses that employ anyone without work authorization

There is no reason why a genuine asylum seeker with a valid claim would cross the French channel on a rubber dingy over simply getting on a flight or ferry and entering via an official port of entry. It’s cheaper, safer and your offered a level of protection and support upon arrival.

It’s therefore fair to assume that anyone entering the UK illegally does not have a valid asylum claim. It’s also fair to assume that anyone arriving without a passport or valid ID does not want us to know who they are. So you prosecute them and they are imprisoned until they can be deported back to their country of origin.

I will have to ponder on that one abit as its complex

 

[robp135]

In what way? What physical barriers are you talking? I would not be against anything if it made sense but I am unsure what physical barrier is?

There are many different types of floating barriers or ones that can be implanted close to shore on coast lines that would be difficult for the boats to pass without causing damage.

 

[robp135]

The one form the screenshot?

Its everywhere but I got it from BBC.

TBF his "china flu" and "started in a lab" was pretty famous.

Not sure what point you are making here.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I suspect your not up for putting in place physical barriers that would prevent the boats from being able to get to shore. So the only option is to completely remove the incentive structure

This means the possibility of being able to ever build a life in Britain is completely removed if you enter illegally. Along with heavily prosecuting businesses that employ anyone without work authorization

There is no reason why a genuine asylum seeker with a valid claim would cross the French channel on a rubber dingy over simply getting on a flight or ferry and entering via an official port of entry. It’s cheaper, safer and your offered a level of protection and support upon arrival.

It’s therefore fair to assume that anyone entering the UK illegally does not have a valid asylum claim. It’s also fair to assume that anyone arriving without a passport or valid ID does not want us to know who they are. So you prosecute them and they are imprisoned until they can be deported back to their country of origin.

But it’s not fair at all to assume that anyone arriving by the channel does not have a valid claim to asylum. As of now asylum can’t be claimed from abroad. So you can’t just hop on a plane or a ferry even if you have a legitimate claim as you would need to produce the correct visa or other documentation to enter the UK before you would be allowed to board/embark. Otherwise airlines/ferry companies have to accept the cost and pain of taking you back again - which is of course impossible because you likely won’t have the right paperwork to get back into France.
So we have made it nigh on impossible for anyone to enter legally to claim asylum apart from limited schemes such as the Afghanistan one and Ukraine for example.

If we had safe routes/approved methods of applying for asylum from abroad - as Mahmoud has said we will be doing, (although I’m not holding my breath on this) - then that should discourage some of those who try to cross the Channel unofficially. We have legal international obligations to consider all claims for asylum. I don’t know for sure but I assume we could say we are meeting those obligations by having safe routes in operation.

As for the passport/ID issue - those who travel over are told to destroy their ID by the traffickers, although not all do. I’m not sure that’s a reasonable reason to throw someone in prison. There are ways of attempting to verify the info that is provided.

Totally agree with prosecuting businesses who employ people illegally. I believe that already happens. Although like most things I expect the resources to carry out checks are very limited.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Not sure what point you are making here.

How can someone be accused of a cover up on the origins of Covid when the President makes a statement back then that he knows for certain where and how it started and another source claimed something different from intelligence? Thats confused me to a point.

Was Trump lying about knowing and having seen the evidence? I think thats a fairly logical question to ask given whats being put over now no?

 

[robp135]

But it’s not fair at all to assume that anyone arriving by the channel does not have a valid claim to asylum. As of now asylum can’t be claimed from abroad. So you can’t just hop on a plane or a ferry even if you have a legitimate claim as you would need to produce the correct visa or other documentation to enter the UK before you would be allowed to board/embark. Otherwise airlines/ferry companies have to accept the cost and pain of taking you back again - which is of course impossible because you likely won’t have the right paperwork to get back into France.
So we have made it nigh on impossible for anyone to enter legally to claim asylum apart from limited schemes such as the Afghanistan one and Ukraine for example.

If we had safe routes/approved methods of applying for asylum from abroad - as Mahmoud has said we will be doing, (although I’m not holding my breath on this) - then that should discourage some of those who try to cross the Channel unofficially. We have legal international obligations to consider all claims for asylum. I don’t know for sure but I assume we could say we are meeting those obligations by having safe routes in operation.

As for the passport/ID issue - those who travel over are told to destroy their ID by the traffickers, although not all do. I’m not sure that’s a reasonable reason to throw someone in prison. There are ways of attempting to verify the info that is provided.

Totally agree with prosecuting businesses who employ people illegally. I believe that already happens. Although like most things I expect the resources to carry out checks are very limited.

Anyone with a valid passport can book a flight from anywhere in Europe for under €100 and the claim asylum when they arrive in the UK. Yet some chose to pay a traffiker €5,000 and travel on a rubber dingy instead. The only logical explanation for doing this is that they don’t want you to know who they are.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

There are many different types of floating barriers or ones that can be implanted close to shore on coast lines that would be difficult for the boats to pass without causing damage.

Interesting, never seen them, but would there not be environmental impacts, let alone what it would do to recreational activities etc. I would imagine, you would need 26 miles of it and then you have the shipping lanes etc.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Anyone with a valid passport can book a flight from anywhere in Europe for under €100 and the claim asylum when they arrive in the UK. Yet some chose to pay a traffiker €5,000 and travel on a rubber dingy instead. The only logical explanation for doing this is that they don’t want you to know who they are.

No if you are coming from any country that is on the UK visa-required list, the airline must check your documentation before you board.
Even for non-Visa countries the UK now has something akin to the US ESTA scheme. So it’s highly unlikely you can just book a flight and fly in.

 

[robp135]

How can someone be accused of a cover up on the origins of Covid when the President makes a statement back then that he knows for certain where and how it started and another source claimed something different from intelligence? Thats confused me to a point.

Was Trump lying about knowing and having seen the evidence? I think thats a fairly logical question to ask given whats being put over now no?

As far as I am aware there has always been intelligence that’s pointed towards the lab leak. That may be different to what was briefed to the public.

Fauci is accused of a cover up based on the evidence produced in the hearings. Which has been significant.

The very best case for Fauci is that he actively wanted to deflect attention away from an investigation in to the potential of lab leak.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Anyone with a valid passport can book a flight from anywhere in Europe for under €100 and the claim asylum when they arrive in the UK. Yet some chose to pay a traffiker €5,000 and travel on a rubber dingy instead. The only logical explanation for doing this is that they don’t want you to know who they are.

I think thats unfair. About 25% of arrivals are women and children and I suspect there is an element of desperation to use a trafficker, yes to improve their chances, but the traffickers often take their passport and destroy them coaching them that its a better way, now you can argue its the same thing but I think thats slightly unfair. There will be a % of people who are genuine who have never had a passport for various reasons and depending on their circumstances from where they are coming from,

 

[robp135]

No if you are coming from any country that is on the UK visa-required list, the airline must check your documentation before you board.
Even for non-Visa countries the UK now has something akin to the US ESTA scheme. So it’s highly unlikely you can just book a flight and fly in.

It’s not particularly difficult to get a UK travel visa.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

As far as I am aware there has always been intelligence that’s pointed towards the lab leak. That may be different to what was briefed to the public.

Fauci is accused of a cover up based on the evidence produced in the hearings. Which has been significant.

The very best case for Fauci is that he actively wanted to deflect attention away from an investigation in to the potential of lab leak.

But that seems impossible and insignificant if two sources are adamant (in Trumps case) that they know where it came from and started. That part just seems really strange to me.

As for the rest, well social distancing, lockdowns etc, I mean you would have to bang up near on the entire political system around the globe for that, again including Trump who ultimately made the decision for the US and executed it.

I think in all this is easy to forget how massively serious it was at the time, I think going back and complaining about lockdowns when you see the early days in Italy and Drs in England choosing who to live and die, expecting a definitive plan that worked for a situation never seen seems extreme and slightly unfair

This video is a hard watch but its worth a reminder

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[Glenda's Legs]

It’s not particularly difficult to get a UK travel visa.

From Sudan/Somalia/Afghanistan/Iran/etc ?

 

[robp135]

I think thats unfair. About 25% of arrivals are women and children and I suspect there is an element of desperation to use a trafficker, yes to improve their chances, but the traffickers often take their passport and destroy them coaching them that its a better way, now you can argue its the same thing but I think thats slightly unfair. There will be a % of people who are genuine who have never had a passport for various reasons and depending on their circumstances from where they are coming from,

The message has to be clear. Anyone that enters the UK without valid identification will not be welcome. They they be prosecuted. If we can identify them they will be sent back to country of origin. If we can’t they get sent back to France. We pay the French £600M a year to stop this that should be part of the deal.

 

[robp135]

But that seems impossible and insignificant if two sources are adamant (in Trumps case) that they know where it came from and started. That part just seems really strange to me.

As for the rest, well social distancing, lockdowns etc, I mean you would have to bang up near on the entire political system around the globe for that, again including Trump who ultimately made the decision for the US and executed it.

I think in all this is easy to forget how massively serious it was at the time, I think going back and complaining about lockdowns when you see the early days in Italy and Drs in England choosing who to live and die, expecting a definitive plan that worked for a situation never seen seems extreme and slightly unfair

This video is a hard watch but its worth a reminder

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I didn’t say anything about social distancing, lockdowns or how serious COVID was?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I didn’t say anything about social distancing, lockdowns or how serious COVID was?

You didn't but I saw a clip of him being taken to massive task by someone from yesterday who was, that was a wider point

Sincere question, because honestly after looking today and trying to understand yesterdays row on her, what is it you would like him to be accountable for? What areas are getting your goat about him? I know nothing about him and his history and honestly beyond loads of memes and AI slop on twitter I am not getting to a point where I understand the true issues at hand?

 

[robp135]

From Sudan/Somalia/Afghanistan/Iran/etc ?

There is no blanket UK ban preventing people from those countries from obtaining a visitor visa.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

There is no blanket UK ban preventing people from those countries from obtaining a visitor visa.

I didn’t say there was.

 

[robp135]

I didn’t say there was.

So what stops somebody from those countries, if they have a valid asylum claim, obtaining a visitor visa and entering the country legally to then claim asylum?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

So what stops somebody from those countries, if they have a valid asylum claim, obtaining a visitor visa and entering the country legally to then claim asylum?

There would likely be alot of Visa requirements that a genuine asylum seeker would not have. They likely would not have a hotel booking, itinerary, proof of education, proof of funds, if they are seeking asylum I suspect they might not have an address which is often required, some also want employment proof.