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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

monkeybarry said:
Funnily enough, these are the exact reasons I get in trouble sometimes - I'll happily admit when I'm wrong, and when someone else is.
Improvement needs honesty, integrity, accuracy, candor and humility. Apparently most people can't deal with that 🤣
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100% this.

I was saying something along these lines to my wife last night.

I don't know if it's an age thing BUT those 5 nouns you used (I'd add openness and consistency as well) are the aim, erm not so much aim, but where I have reconciled my 53 yr old brain as the important behaviours imo.
It's almost I can't be arsed with any behaviours that are deceptive, snide, wishy-washy, deflective, distracting, pussy footing etc etc.

As you say, it's not to everyone's taste, but I'm upfront about it these days. I just think so much time gets wasted.

And yes, we are all wrong sometimes!
 
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monkeybarry said:
I know. I did that pages back.

It's more nuanced than that.
No 10 will have trusted the process, and did so.
The process was followed.
No. 10 also needed Mandelson in post asap, and rightly so (irrespective of whether you think he's the right appointment).

As with many civil service processes, they are underfunded and under supported - there is a gulf between what UK Govt needs and what it enables the civil service to provide. (And what the public would be prepared to pay for)

The question here wasn't about the decision to appoint Mandelson, it was about process.

Starmers reaction to attack the civil service publicly is stupid - it makes his relationship, and the position of the Govt to work together, untenable.
Thr civil service is excellent (not perfect) at following the rules - if you attack on that basis, you need to be accurate.

Olly Robins will clearly be going to employment tribunal from here - even the existence of that is such a significant distraction from the role of government, at which Starmer will be central to.
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Of course Starmer trusted the process - he's a Gooner :)

Forgetting about this latest drama Starmer was never going to be a successful PM. He just doesn't carry the aura of a leader, he doesn't command respect internationally. And predictably Labour have shown themselves up to be a failure, with cramming a hell of a lot of 'scandals' into a short space of time.

They only came into power because of the 'Anyone but Tories' thinking rather than people switching their votes because of a real desire for their policies. But they have shown once in power politicians are all very much of the same ilk, shock horror. The future of British politics is a mess.....
 
monkeybarry said:
I know. I did that pages back.

It's more nuanced than that.
No 10 will have trusted the process, and did so.
The process was followed.
No. 10 also needed Mandelson in post asap, and rightly so (irrespective of whether you think he's the right appointment).

As with many civil service processes, they are underfunded and under supported - there is a gulf between what UK Govt needs and what it enables the civil service to provide. (And what the public would be prepared to pay for)

The question here wasn't about the decision to appoint Mandelson, it was about process.

Starmers reaction to attack the civil service publicly is stupid - it makes his relationship, and the position of the Govt to work together, untenable.
Thr civil service is excellent (not perfect) at following the rules - if you attack on that basis, you need to be accurate.

Olly Robins will clearly be going to employment tribunal from here - even the existence of that is such a significant distraction from the role of government, at which Starmer will be central to.
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Yeah fair enough, overall that is a fair summary.
 
monkeybarry said:
Funnily enough, these are the exact reasons I get in trouble sometimes - I'll happily admit when I'm wrong, and when someone else is.
Improvement needs honesty, integrity, accuracy, candor and humility. Apparently most people can't deal with that 🤣
Click to expand...

I like to think I'm the same. I enjoy being wrong if it means I've failed fast and am ready to change going forward. Key part of the job. I work in fortnightly sprints with enforced retros now and it's brutal
 
LutonSpurs said:
Starmers issue is that he has lost confidence in the commons along with losing the public a while ago. His fall from grace since the "adults were back in charge" is a genuinely extraordinary fall from grace. Dudes boring and everyone thinks he is a liar.

For the sake of the Labour party he should step down now. Or a senior member needs to send a letter of NC.

If the prick hadn't blocked Burnham we could now be looking at a unity type figure but hey ho
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Why would he step down now? Labour are going to get a pasting in the locals - at some point after that he will be the fall guy.

And I wouldn’t go pinning much hope on Burnham; he’s an opportunist who will find the reality of governing to be a huge shock imo.
 
Mikey10 said:
Why would he step down now? Labour are going to get a pasting in the locals - at some point after that he will be the fall guy.

And I wouldn’t go pinning much hope on Burnham; he’s an opportunist who will find the reality of governing to be a huge shock imo.
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I don’t expect anyone of any massive talent to step up as they are all literally average. He might unite folks.

I think it's also my genuine fear of how horrible it is going to be if Reform genuinely happens. It's getting desperately worrying.
 
monkeybarry said:
Funnily enough, these are the exact reasons I get in trouble sometimes - I'll happily admit when I'm wrong, and when someone else is.
Improvement needs honesty, integrity, accuracy, candor and humility. Apparently most people can't deal with that 🤣
Click to expand...

I absolutely live by that.
I am happy to admit when wrong, and happy also to admit when I don't know something.
The measure of integrity can only be within oneself IMO (hold yourself to standard, most people tend to have their own idea of what integrity is, albeit there is surely a common standard which sits right around 'decency').
I think the trickiest one is hypocrisy. I am of the view that once you reach middle age, you are going to be a hypocrite at some level if you're doing this 'life' thing properly. Opinions and perspectives change, and that's both good and right. We're always learning, right? But I suppose the biggest 'grounding' from birth has to be that sense of right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, which circles back to integrity, or even having a code of ethics.

I do think the words 'ignorance' and 'hypocrisy' get weaponized far too much as hard pejoratives. I mean, everyone is in some state of ignorance at all times, right?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
100% this.

I was saying something along these lines to my wife last night.

I don't know if it's an age thing BUT those 5 nouns you used (I'd add openness and consistency as well) are the aim, erm not so much aim, but where I have reconciled my 53 yr old brain as the important behaviours imo.
It's almost I can't be arsed with any behaviours that are deceptive, snide, wishy-washy, deflective, distracting, pussy footing etc etc.

As you say, it's not to everyone's taste, but I'm upfront about it these days. I just think so much time gets wasted.

And yes, we are all wrong sometimes!
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Love this, I'd also add that the radical acceptance of what one can actually change versus what one can't is a vital step in both energy conservation and expenditure. Because yes, so much time does get wasted. If I sense a discussion with no purpose other than to argue, then I largely avoid these days (other than when it concerns Poch, Ange, Frank, Xavi, Tottenham :tearsofjoy: :tearsofjoy: :tearsofjoy: :tearsofjoy:, in which case I invoke my right to hypocrisy hahahahahaha)...
 
thfcsteff said:
Sadly you're right, there is a lot to unpack, and frankly, the moderates/non-right are still getting to grips with it.




Hmm, in fairness I was being glib. When I suggested that people had been manipulated, you got upset and suggested I was insulting people's intelligence, specifically implying that only average-to-dumb people get manipulated, which is absolutely not true whatsoever.





If you can sew and foment seperation and distrust between allies, resulting in breaking them apart and causing such a union to weaken generally, then you can operate and manouvre as you wish to execute plans. I'd suggest that in planting the seeds of populismm throughout the world (with Brexit being part of that) Putin has managed to make anti-Russian/Putin voices and sentiments far less cohesive and therefore threatening. I understand it remains a point of debate, and will likely do so for sometime.





Two things helped Trump more than anything IMO. Misinformation on a mass scale, and assumptive lethargy. The first time, people simply did not think it was possible and plenty of dems did not bother to vote because they thought it was de fait accompli. The second time? Again, under-estimation...plus some particulrly egregious 'tactics' on Trump's part to keep his voters on tap. I do agree that the confusion in democratic leadership was fatal/also assisted Trump, and that it was theirs to lose.

I have to say, I think you'd be astounded at some of the public views in certain parts of the US. There are significant amounts of people who believe the earth is flat!

p.s. what Iranian influence? Could you define what you mean there?
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If millions of people can be swayed into things like believing Covid vaccine, then they can clearly be swayed by social media. The idea that SillyGBT cant or won't acknowledge it is slightly scary.

One quick look on twitter will show you what utter rubbish and lies people want to believe which benefits those that put the initial lie out. Change that to politics and its clear as day its a useful tool of battle.

The internet/social media is clearly the modern battle ground for politics
 
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MartyFunkhouser said:
If millions of people can be swayed into things like believing Covid vaccine, then they can clearly be swayed by social media. The idea that SillyGBT cant or won't acknowledge it is slightly scary.

One quick look on twitter will show you what utter rubbish and lies people want to believe which benefits those that put the initial lie out. Change that to politics and its clear as day its a useful tool of battle.

The internet/social media is clearly the modern battle ground for politics
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Yeah e.g I don't remember transphobia particularly existing before about 2022. And now everyone's mum is suddenly a TERF
 
monkeybarry said:
Oh it did!
It just had a smaller platform and a culture pushing for normalisation.
The current TERF landscape is a mark of success for the efforts to move trans sexuality to being fringe and hidden to be normalised as part of society.
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No one cared before. And most people didn't know a real trans person (its statistically very uncommon - more than 1/1000 people or something).

But then it got used to distract the plebs from wealth inequality, and most older women think their bogs are suddenly now full of burly brickies in make-up
 
Gutter Boy said:
No one cared before. And most people didn't know a real trans person (its statistically very uncommon - more than 1/1000 people or something).

But then it got used to distract the plebs from wealth inequality, and most older women think their bogs are suddenly now full of burly brickies in make-up
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You were either very sheltered or thinking in a revisionist manner.
People were outraged, some of whom just stared in the street at "the freak", some of whom used pejorative phrases, some physical abuse, some social abuse - all of which enforced a culture of repression.
Then society told them to fuk off and let people be who they are - social media created greater awareness, as dig the LGBTQ community getting to a place of empowerment and acceptance, which helped create a safe space.
 
monkeybarry said:
You were either very sheltered or thinking in a revisionist manner.
People were outraged, some of whom just stared in the street at "the freak", some of whom used pejorative phrases, some physical abuse, some social abuse - all of which enforced a culture of repression.
Then society told them to fuk off and let people be who they are - social media created greater awareness, as dig the LGBTQ community getting to a place of empowerment and acceptance, which helped create a safe space.
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There was definitely queer bashing in the 70s, 80s, even 90s, of course. Homophobia was probably worse than transphobia though. But by the turn of century it felt like society had civilised beyond that. The regression has come since Trump and culture wars though
 
Gutter Boy said:
There was definitely queer bashing in the 70s, 80s, even 90s, of course. Homophobia was probably worse than transphobia though. But by the turn of century it felt like society had civilised beyond that. The regression has come since Trump and culture wars though
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That carried on extensively into the 2000s as well for the trans community.
 
Is it acceptable for a trans women to go into a changing room and wash their penis in front of your naked daughter/wife.

Whilst I don’t really care, it’s a strange world, they probably do.
 
johnola said:
Is it acceptable for a trans women to go into a changing room and wash their penis in front of your naked daughter/wife.

Whilst I don’t really care, it’s a strange world, they probably do.
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How often has this ever been reported to have happened? Have you ever met anyone who has had such an experience? This hypothetical is used constantly but there's very little evidence or even anecdotes of it being a thing. It's just hyperbole.
 
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