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Players or Manager?

We're not 2.5 years in to an over haul, we've spent most windows since Redknapps departure trying to keep ourselves at the level we were, that isn't an over haul, not by my reckoning anyway - don't get me wrong i think we needed one at that point but what we have done up to this point is try and cling on to that position as 5th/4th best team in the country.

This is the first time we have gone in to a season with the Chairman/management not focussing on top 4 as the over bearing goal - instead talking up developing players/a style of play etc all the talk of late is about shipping out the deadwood and those not suited to the managers vision (whatever that is) to me that is a clear difference to what has gone before and any over haul will begin in full next summer.
 
You think Lloris, Vert, Walker, Eriksen, Ade shows a lack of quality in squad?
Add Soldado, Lamela, Lennon who are proven quality either elsewhere or in previous squads

Lack of leadership/experience I agree with
Lack of a quality DM (but Poch sold our best DM in a decade)

It's my original point, someone may say "Lennon is ****" but when we get to 14 players are ****/lazy/untalented/etc when all of them are proven internationals, almost all have shown it at high levels at some point, I think the manager has to take the blame
But with same group our football has been average under 3 managers now, AVB, Sherwood and Poch. I think Lloris, Verts and Eriksen are our better players, Walker has only just come back, Sold ado and Lamela have been average for longer than poch has been here.

Poch wasn't my choice as manager, I didn't get all excited by his Saints team, but he was never going to them down spurs when levy came calling so its not entirely his fault. It is mostly Levy's for chossing the wrong man again and I just feel that we have no choice but to let Poch build a side he wants on the pitch. I like his promotion of the youth and for that alone I will give him time
 
But with same group our football has been average under 3 managers now, AVB, Sherwood and Poch. I think Lloris, Verts and Eriksen are our better players, Walker has only just come back, Sold ado and Lamela have been average for longer than poch has been here.

Poch wasn't my choice as manager, I didn't get all excited by his Saints team, but he was never going to them down spurs when levy came calling so its not entirely his fault. It is mostly Levy's for chossing the wrong man again and I just feel that we have no choice but to let Poch build a side he wants on the pitch. I like his promotion of the youth and for that alone I will give him time

Yes, 3 terribly inexperienced managers, 2 of whom have a stubborn/unproven belief that systems trump everything, vs. trying to use what you have, keep it simple and progress to some future goal/system.

And yes, Levy has picked the wrong man again ...
 
You think Lloris, Vert, Walker, Eriksen, Ade shows a lack of quality in squad?
Add Soldado, Lamela, Lennon who are proven quality either elsewhere or in previous squads

Lack of leadership/experience I agree with
Lack of a quality DM (but Poch sold our best DM in a decade)

It's my original point, someone may say "Lennon is ****" but when we get to 14 players are ****/lazy/untalented/etc when all of them are proven internationals, almost all have shown it at high levels at some point, I think the manager has to take the blame
I think that apart from Lloris they are good rather than great players but a few of them could become great.

I think that we have a good squad but it lacks variety and is playing within itself. This is why Kane has been such a breath of fresh air because he plays without fear and has bags of belief.
 
Yes, 3 terribly inexperienced managers, 2 of whom have a stubborn/unproven belief that systems trump everything, vs. trying to use what you have, keep it simple and progress to some future goal/system.

And yes, Levy has picked the wrong man again ...
I don't get the stubborn argument with Poch. He has played different formations, has adjusted his tactics and has changed things during games.

He does have a preferred formation but so do all managers and it is one that this squad has been tailored for.
 
How long has Poch been in the job ? Right

How good is Lloris ? Exactly

How good is our defense ? How many goals has Bobby and Ade scored ? Other issues to address.

Very general broad stroke issues, Poch needs time to address. I think we lack a strong core and leader still to our squad, I still cannot identify a leader. It's not Verts, seems far too lackadaisical - more Lloris or Kaboom IMHO.
 
Can we deduce from that statement that you have moved on from having little faith in the manager to now thinking he is definitley not going to succeed here?

Don't know .. is it ever that easy? much like I want Lamela & Soldado to click, same for Poch, just things have to change

- Blaming the players is an easy cop out, Madrid could have a better keeper, doesn't mean they roll over.
- To judge players, the manager has to enable them to play well

If Poch started

- Picking a set back pair
- Not using inverted.wingers without Rose/Walker to compensate
- Create an option (wonky?) that gives us width without suicidal FB play
- Play two up front except against the very best teams
- Increase the tempo of playing, consistently
- Not subbing the wrong players
- Leave Capoue/Kaboul/Ade out of EPL starting lineup

If he did that simple **** well, I personally would be a little more patient with him and I think others would as well.

p.s. edit as someone is sure to jump in, did the above and sticked to it for a run of games ..
 
I've been a bit grumpy due to man-flu and last night's performance/result. I'm not 100% convinced that Pochettino is doing a good job just now, because I think the squad is capable of better performances. Unfortunately, Pochettino is a 'system manager' in that he plays 'a system' that needs a particular style or type of player to be successful. He's not as stubborn as AVB in terms of his formation, but there are general elements of his style that he does not waiver from and for which the squad isn't entirely suited.

I am HOPING that we have a meeting of minds for once. My worry is that Levy brought in Pochettino with the belief that he will work with what we have and in particular work with the 'not-so-magnificent-7' and improve them.

What Poch really needs to be successful is a radical overhaul of the squad. If he gets backed in this regard, it will be interesting to see if he will create a successful, attractive team.

I can sum up the constants in Pochettino's system:

*high-intensity press all over the pitch;
*move the ball forward quickly in the transition;
*always plays two forwards, the only change is that depending on the game, one might drop back into the hole or be right up alongside the main forward;
*favours attacking full-backs for width rather than traditional wingers;

Looking at the squad, I think I can assess it as follows in relation to being able to work in Poch's system:

Lloris - perfect for the system
Vorm - perfect for the system

Walker - perfect for the system
Yedlin - perfect for the system
Naughton - looks a good fit as back-up but with yedlin's arrival i'd imagine he'll be surplus to requirements

Rose - perfect for the system
Davies - this is a weird one in terms of us buying him as the difference to Poch's system working with Rose in the team is staggering. I just don't think Davies offers enough on the over-lap or in terms of bombing up and down to suit Poch's system or make it work. I find this extraordinary given he is a new signing and it is another example of the stunning incompetence of the club's recent transfer activity. If he wasn't brand new i'd be saying bin him, but we will probably have to give him the chance to show what he can do
Assou-Ekotto - personally, I think he'd be better suited to the back-up to Rose role, but he appears to be exiled from the club at the minute so I expect him to go

Personally, I think we could do with an attacking left-back more in the Rose-mould as back-up.

Kaboul - makes too many mistakes for someone that plays in a high-press system and doesn't release the ball forward or early enough
Vertonghen - in theory well suited to the system and seems to be getting better under Poch, we will see
Fazio - seems to be a Poch pick and after a shaky start, appears to be forming a solid looking partnership with Vertonghen - hopefully
Dier - in theory should do well in the system at CB, good passer of the ball, good on the ball, plays the ball early and forward
Chiriches - in theory should be good in the system, but not convinced he is seen as a good enough defender, makes too many mistakes for a high press system to work

I'd say we need at least one more CB and to get rid of Chiriches and Kaboul

Dembele - doesn't release the ball early enough
Paulinho - isn't aggressive enough, mobile enough or comfortable releasing the ball early
Capoue - releases the ball early, but doesn't have enough self-confidence to release it forward into dangerous positions, which is key to making Poch's tactics work. Also not mobile enough to cover the ground needed in the press
Stambouli - of the 'senior' (over 24 yr old) players he looks most suitable for the system, although he hasnt played in the Premiership yet and i'd suggest he's more a back-up long-term in terms of quality
Bentaleb - looks perfect for the system
Mason - looks well suited to the system

I think central midfield actually needs the greatest amount of attention. Other than Bentaleb and Mason the players don't look 100% suited to making Pochettino's tactics work. They're both inexperienced and could do with at least one senior player to help out in this area. The return of Carroll could provide another body next season, if we feel he's developed to the required standard while at Swansea.

Lennon - okay he is a traditional winger, but because of his intelligence and close control, he has looked good in Poch's system. However I think Walker's return could change/hamper him, although I believe he can adapt and play a different role that would work in Poch's system. Bizarrely, he was played through the middle a lot in pre-season and even more bizarrely, this seemed to be pretty effective, although it was just pre-season
Townsend - similar to others in the squad, just does not release the ball early enough for me to be successful in this system
Lamela - I think he should work, he presses well and aggressively, has lots of stamina, technique and does try the early pass quite regularly. Just not coming off for him but the ingredients are there to be successful in this system
Eriksen - seems perfect for the system really, although he is a quality player with a great attitude and they're prefect for any system 2bf

I do think we need to invest in at least one wide-forward

In terms of the 'shadow' or secondary forward, I think both Chadli and Kane look very capable in this role and potentially this will be Lamela's long-term role if he stays at Spurs too so I think we look well-stocked here

In terms of the centre-forward role, I think along with central midfield this needs the greatest work as 2bh we are being royally let down by our lack of any effective centre-forward.

We should have murdered Besiktas in the first half last night but in the end we lost and while you can point to Kaboul's brainfart leading to their goal, at the end of the day, it shouldnt have made a difference and I lay the blame last night squarely on Soldado's shoulders.

It wasn't just the sitters he was missing, it was the fact that with Rose & Walker in the side, we were putting in a lot of dangerous balls and crosses from wide areas, but there was nobody getting on the end of them. I'm thinking "where the f*** is Soldado?" Time and again he was fannying about on the edge of the box while Rose or Walker smacked in a dangerous ball to nobody. Also, Townsend put in a couple of actually quite dangerous free-kicks, bent right into the danger area. Again, an in-form quality foward would be at least throwing himself at the ball and making a nuisance of himself.

In terms of the squad by position its kind of looking like:

..............................LLORIS
...............................Vorm

WALKER..........FAZIO........VERTONGHEN.........ROSE
Yedlin............???????.............Dier................??????

...................BENTALEB.......??????????
.....................???????...........Mason

LENNON.................................................ERIKSEN
Lamela....................KANE........................???????
.............................Chadli

.............................???????
.............................???????
 
I've been a bit grumpy due to man-flu and last night's performance/result. I'm not 100% convinced that Pochettino is doing a good job just now, because I think the squad is capable of better performances. Unfortunately, Pochettino is a 'system manager' in that he plays 'a system' that needs a particular style or type of player to be successful. He's not as stubborn as AVB in terms of his formation, but there are general elements of his style that he does not waiver from and for which the squad isn't entirely suited.

I am HOPING that we have a meeting of minds for once. My worry is that Levy brought in Pochettino with the belief that he will work with what we have and in particular work with the 'not-so-magnificent-7' and improve them.

What Poch really needs to be successful is a radical overhaul of the squad. If he gets backed in this regard, it will be interesting to see if he will create a successful, attractive team.

I can sum up the constants in Pochettino's system:

*high-intensity press all over the pitch;
*move the ball forward quickly in the transition;
*always plays two forwards, the only change is that depending on the game, one might drop back into the hole or be right up alongside the main forward;
*favours attacking full-backs for width rather than traditional wingers;

Looking at the squad, I think I can assess it as follows in relation to being able to work in Poch's system:

Lloris - perfect for the system
Vorm - perfect for the system

Walker - perfect for the system
Yedlin - perfect for the system
Naughton - looks a good fit as back-up but with yedlin's arrival i'd imagine he'll be surplus to requirements

Rose - perfect for the system
Davies - this is a weird one in terms of us buying him as the difference to Poch's system working with Rose in the team is staggering. I just don't think Davies offers enough on the over-lap or in terms of bombing up and down to suit Poch's system or make it work. I find this extraordinary given he is a new signing and it is another example of the stunning incompetence of the club's recent transfer activity. If he wasn't brand new i'd be saying bin him, but we will probably have to give him the chance to show what he can do
Assou-Ekotto - personally, I think he'd be better suited to the back-up to Rose role, but he appears to be exiled from the club at the minute so I expect him to go

Personally, I think we could do with an attacking left-back more in the Rose-mould as back-up.

Kaboul - makes too many mistakes for someone that plays in a high-press system and doesn't release the ball forward or early enough
Vertonghen - in theory well suited to the system and seems to be getting better under Poch, we will see
Fazio - seems to be a Poch pick and after a shaky start, appears to be forming a solid looking partnership with Vertonghen - hopefully
Dier - in theory should do well in the system at CB, good passer of the ball, good on the ball, plays the ball early and forward
Chiriches - in theory should be good in the system, but not convinced he is seen as a good enough defender, makes too many mistakes for a high press system to work

I'd say we need at least one more CB and to get rid of Chiriches and Kaboul

Dembele - doesn't release the ball early enough
Paulinho - isn't aggressive enough, mobile enough or comfortable releasing the ball early
Capoue - releases the ball early, but doesn't have enough self-confidence to release it forward into dangerous positions, which is key to making Poch's tactics work. Also not mobile enough to cover the ground needed in the press
Stambouli - of the 'senior' (over 24 yr old) players he looks most suitable for the system, although he hasnt played in the Premiership yet and i'd suggest he's more a back-up long-term in terms of quality
Bentaleb - looks perfect for the system
Mason - looks well suited to the system

I think central midfield actually needs the greatest amount of attention. Other than Bentaleb and Mason the players don't look 100% suited to making Pochettino's tactics work. They're both inexperienced and could do with at least one senior player to help out in this area. The return of Carroll could provide another body next season, if we feel he's developed to the required standard while at Swansea.

Lennon - okay he is a traditional winger, but because of his intelligence and close control, he has looked good in Poch's system. However I think Walker's return could change/hamper him, although I believe he can adapt and play a different role that would work in Poch's system. Bizarrely, he was played through the middle a lot in pre-season and even more bizarrely, this seemed to be pretty effective, although it was just pre-season
Townsend - similar to others in the squad, just does not release the ball early enough for me to be successful in this system
Lamela - I think he should work, he presses well and aggressively, has lots of stamina, technique and does try the early pass quite regularly. Just not coming off for him but the ingredients are there to be successful in this system
Eriksen - seems perfect for the system really, although he is a quality player with a great attitude and they're prefect for any system 2bf

I do think we need to invest in at least one wide-forward

In terms of the 'shadow' or secondary forward, I think both Chadli and Kane look very capable in this role and potentially this will be Lamela's long-term role if he stays at Spurs too so I think we look well-stocked here

In terms of the centre-forward role, I think along with central midfield this needs the greatest work as 2bh we are being royally let down by our lack of any effective centre-forward.

We should have murdered Besiktas in the first half last night but in the end we lost and while you can point to Kaboul's brainfart leading to their goal, at the end of the day, it shouldnt have made a difference and I lay the blame last night squarely on Soldado's shoulders.

It wasn't just the sitters he was missing, it was the fact that with Rose & Walker in the side, we were putting in a lot of dangerous balls and crosses from wide areas, but there was nobody getting on the end of them. I'm thinking "where the f*** is Soldado?" Time and again he was fannying about on the edge of the box while Rose or Walker smacked in a dangerous ball to nobody. Also, Townsend put in a couple of actually quite dangerous free-kicks, bent right into the danger area. Again, an in-form quality foward would be at least throwing himself at the ball and making a nuisance of himself.

In terms of the squad by position its kind of looking like:

..............................LLORIS
...............................Vorm

WALKER..........FAZIO........VERTONGHEN.........ROSE
Yedlin............???????.............Dier................??????

...................BENTALEB.......??????????
.....................???????...........Mason

LENNON.................................................ERIKSEN
Lamela....................KANE........................???????
.............................Chadli

.............................???????
.............................???????

Top post there NWND =D>
 
Yes if Poch was brought in to get the best out of this squad then that was a bad choice from Levy because it was clear for all to see that the majority of our players don't have the capabilities to play how Poch had his Saints team playing.

So why did he choose to come here then? It was clear for all to see...except Poch and Levy?

Poch, and all managers, are tasked with getting the best out of existing players. The better he does in that regard, the better for all. Does he have the players on the same page. Does he have their buy in. Has he won them over. How are his player and man management and communication skills. Does he have them motivated and wanting to play hard for him. How well is he coaching them and developing them and improving them. Are his know-how and methods and formations and systems flexible enough to maximize the available squad...regardless of some longer term ideas and targets and objectives. Despite any shortcomings in the current squad, are we overachieving? We bought a bunch of players and spent a ton of cash 2 summers ago. He arrived this past summer. He added 6 more.

A bad choice by Levy? Surely during evaluation/selection/hiring process there must have been a feeling at the club and by Levy (as there was in here) that he'd be a good fit at this club with existing players? If we were in 2nd place right now this notion wouldn't even arise. But since we are not, oh well then it must be the players.
 
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All the talk of late is about shipping out the deadwood and those not suited to the managers vision (whatever that is) to me that is a clear difference to what has gone before and any over haul will begin in full next summer.

All the talk of late by...who? And, where? I've not really seen this emanating lately from Levy or the club? I've not seen them say an over haul will begin next summer?
 
So why did he choose to come here then? It was clear for all to see...except Poch and Levy?

Poch, and all managers, are tasked with getting the best out of existing players. The better he does in that regard, the better for all. Does he have the players on the same page. Does he have their buy in. Has he won them over. How are his player and man management and communication skills. Does he have them motivated and wanting to play hard for him. How well is he coaching them and developing them and improving them. Are his know-how and methods and formations and systems flexible enough to maximize the available squad...regardless of some longer term ideas and targets and objectives. Despite any shortcomings in the current squad, are we overachieving? We bought a bunch of players and spent a ton of cash 2 summers ago. He arrived this past summer. He added 6 more.

A bad choice by Levy? Surely during evaluation/selection/hiring process there must have been a feeling at the club and by Levy (as there was in here) that he'd be a good fit at this club with existing players? If we were in 2nd place right now this notion wouldn't even arise. But since we are not, oh well then it must be the players.

This basically sums it up for me as well although I also agree with mido about us lacking leaders
 
So why did he choose to come here then? It was clear for all to see...except Poch and Levy?

Poch, and all managers, are tasked with getting the best out of existing players. The better he does in that regard, the better for all. Does he have the players on the same page. Does he have their buy in. Has he won them over. How are his player and man management and communication skills. Does he have them motivated and wanting to play hard for him. How well is he coaching them and developing them and improving them. Are his know-how and methods and formations and systems flexible enough to maximize the available squad...regardless of some longer term ideas and targets and objectives. Despite any shortcomings in the current squad, are we overachieving? We bought a bunch of players and spent a ton of cash 2 summers ago. He arrived this past summer. He added 6 more.

A bad choice by Levy? Surely during evaluation/selection/hiring process there must have been a feeling at the club and by Levy (as there was in here) that he'd be a good fit at this club with existing players? If we were in 2nd place right now this notion wouldn't even arise. But since we are not, oh well then it must be the players.

I suspect that the main reason he joined us was because we pay more than Southampton, he thought that he could attract better players to Spurs and that he had more chance of winning stuff with us than Southampton.

I don't agree that all managers are tasked with getting the best out of existing players. I think that most people recognise that there is always a bit of movement in players when a manager comes in.
 
I suspect that the main reason he joined us was because we pay more than Southampton, he thought that he could attract better players to Spurs and that he had more chance of winning stuff with us than Southampton.

I don't agree that all managers are tasked with getting the best out of existing players. I think that most people recognise that there is always a bit of movement in players when a manager comes in.

I agree with the first part of that, and some of the second part as well, accept some people are talking about something of an overhaul, that squad are unsuited rather than one two or three players. I doubt that can be described as a bit of movement.
 
I agree with the first part of that, and some of the second part as well, accept some people are talking about something of an overhaul, that squad are unsuited rather than one two or three players. I doubt that can be described as a bit of movement.

The thing is that it is all speculation at the moment. My guess is that we will see quite a lot of movement out to make space for academy players making the step up and some key signings.
 
The thing is that it is all speculation at the moment. My guess is that we will see quite a lot of movement out to make space for academy players making the step up and some key signings.

Yeah i'd expect at least a CB (I suspect Moreno), CM (we might go back for Schneiderlin, but if that boat has sailed i expect someone to come in) and CF or two (Jay Rodriguez and another?) to come in either in Jan or summer. It appears Winks is seen as one to step up as he's already had a first-team appearance this season. There's a few others knocking on the door.
 
I think that most people recognise that there is always a bit of movement in players when a manager comes in.

You are speaking for others, but I imagine you are right. As I said, we signed 6 after his arrival in the summer. And we let a few go, too. So yes, there has been 'a bit of movement after a new manager comes in.'

By the way, regarding the 'Players or Manager'...my opinion on that would be that its some of both. Part of the reason I arrive there is because I don't feel I have enough, either now or in his past, to absolve him entirely. Are you of the opinion its solely with the players? I'm not saying you have said this, I'm asking you.
 
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You are speaking for others, but I imagine you are right. As I said, we signed 6 after his arrival in the summer. And we let a few go, too. So yes, there has been 'a bit of movement after a new manager comes in.'

By the way, regarding the 'Players or Manager'...my opinion on that would be that its some of both. Part of the reason I arrive there is because I don't feel I have enough, either now or in his past, to absolve him entirely. Are you of the opinion its solely with the players? I'm not saying you have said this, I'm asking you.

No. I would agree with you that it is a bit of both.

I think that there are obvious weaknesses in the squad (winning mentality, experience and variety) that need addressing but that would be the case whoever is the manager.

I think that it is clear that it is a bit hit and miss at the moment and that in some games the players are not following the game plan well enough. Part of the blame for that clearly needs to be levelled at the coaching team. That said, I always expected it to be a bit hit and miss this season.
 
Davies might not bomb forward as explosively as Rose, but he does get forward and picks his moments well. Rose for me doesn't think like a defender and gets caught out out of position at times. I don't think Davies is just a random purchase without Poch's approval, he's a competent fullback at 21 and should grow into the roll required of him over the next few years.
 
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