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Pakistani Fiddlers
- Thread starter Leeds Spur
- Start date
southstand1882
Mitchell Thomas
I think we should just lock this bad boy down
politics getting in the way of a good curry debate, all the friggin time
anyway i do like a good Roti from time to time
Leeds Spur
Banned
Leeds Spur
Banned
Doesn't happen at all.
These are a group of mates wanting to fudge white scum, (in their eyes) that's it.
They aren't paedophiles in the normal sense of the word.
They wanted to fudge women not kids, it just so turns out that the ones who would be persuaded by flattery and booze are teenaged.
It's bizarre isn't it. He writes an essay to me but won't defend the content of his posts. I hope it is clear I replied to his post countering the points he made. It could be anyone making that post.
I would like to report sheikh for racism, wum posts (such as Z's) and all the other rules broken. If I broke a rule, someone tell me which one. I can use the report function if you wish, but I don't care about hiding and would rather report in public so that he can defend himself if he wishes. I don't think one of his posts to me is on subject.
Leeds Spur
Banned
Hang on.
Culture and religion are NOT the same thing.
The reason this happened is 10000000% down to the culture of the people living in Rochdale. Is has nowt to do with Islam though.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Just gone back and read this post. With all due to respect Sheikh, you have blamed the Islamic religion for these mens sexual deviancy, that is way off the mark. These guys were alcohol drinking pimps who raped young girls, how is that ever from Islam?
I find it offensive that the connection is made.
I would say that there is a mindset in Pakistan with the men that once you get to England the white girls are easy. This is a shame and I hope they are proved wrong. But religion does not teach them such evil.
Blame the Pakistani culture but not the religion.
Just my two pence.
Leeds Spur
Banned
fudge off!!
This is what random is all about!! Proper debate, (with the odd catty fit thrown in!)
The opening post you made was fine, I said in my first post that you acknowledged 2 key things - not all pakistanis are paedos and put the White stat up. I understand why u did this.
However I'm allowed to give the opinion I have, that's what discussion forums are for. The Sheikh points though are just not relevant to this debate. And he seems to think he has the right not to be challenged.
Leeds Spur
Banned
So again......no disagreement with what I posted?
Cool!
Cool!
Yes. It is down to these individuals being messed up, which is the same for all races. It is not a widescale problem that is caused by the race in general. It is the background of them individually.
Ok I'll leave this thread now, it's a bit repetitive. If anyone really wants to make a point to me feel free to PM it.
And it's a shame sheikh's ego results in him thinking I'm targeting him. I'm replying to his posts in the same way I do to everyone. Shame he can't act grown up and debate his points, instead he cries because he doesn't like me. It's pathetic to have people you ignore. If u see a post you have a related point, make it regardless of who posted it. Username should not be important.
And it's a shame sheikh's ego results in him thinking I'm targeting him. I'm replying to his posts in the same way I do to everyone. Shame he can't act grown up and debate his points, instead he cries because he doesn't like me. It's pathetic to have people you ignore. If u see a post you have a related point, make it regardless of who posted it. Username should not be important.
Sheikh Ma Nuggets
Tony Parks
Well I'm sorry pal, but you're going to have to take umbrage with the Judge in this case then aren't you?
He said that the group "treated the girls as though they were worthless and beyond respect" and that "one of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion". Those are the judges words - not mine - in passing sentence down; he references that religion played its part, whether you - or anyone else - likes it or not.
So, as I said, we can all tinkle around avoiding the issue - or, do something productive - highlight the real growing issue and let's go about changing this perverse, disgusting, racist attitude which you only think "is a shame". It's more than "a shame", it's downright racist - the very same racism which the accused in this case laughably accused the police of, when they were arrested for their heinous crimes.
My explanation is a thought thrown out there, never said it was right or wrong - but I'll happily question ANY religion who worships a paedophile and whose idea of paradise consists of hundreds of virgins. In terms of 'offence' there's a lot to be found in there, my friend. Similarly, this overriding vibe which purveys that white girls are scum, vermin and not due respect - yeah, I kinda find that a little bit offensive you, if you don't mind. So you might just want to remove your foot from that stirrup, before you go climbing your horse to me.
I see a lot of hypocrisy in religions, in general. I know Catholic mates who are adulterers, Muslim women who'd drink me under the table, and Jewish blokes who eat lobster on a regular basis. Each of them either attend Church, Mosque or Synagogue though, and all of them - at some point - have got up on their high horses about their religion, seemingly oblivious to their own hypocrisy; it's like they're only catholic, muslim or jewish when it suits them. None of them ever like to be reminded of their hypocrisy though, funny that?
Oh and, I suppose I could blame the Pakistani culture, except that...one was an Afghan.
Leeds Spur
Banned
No. It's endemic in the Pakistani community in northern towns. A cultural issue of them thinking white women are fluffy bunnies cuddlings.
Leeds Spur
Banned
Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.....
Kingdawson
Banned
Wait i don't get it. So the judge stating that Religion played a part in the men targeting the girls means that the Islamic religion is to blame for their sexual deviancies?
To me they don't mean the same thing at all. Saying that the men targeted young girls because they were not muslim is NOT the same as someone saying that the religion is a reason why these men are fudged up. It's two seperate issues.
Sheikh Ma Nuggets
Tony Parks
And, to be honest, somewhat irrelevant.
The main issue, is getting to the root cause of why these scumbags - and others like them - are targeting young white girls, for rape? They're the victims here, and that shouldn't be forgotten, ignored or downplayed.
If we're to ever coexist as one big happy society, then we have to be able to confront issues like this head-on, without this stupid flimflam of 'racism' being thrown in peoples' faces. That cowardice crap contributed to a girl being abused for a year longer than she needed to be, and that's just not acceptable; people need to focus on the important issues, remember there are people and victims involved - not their own little agendas and egos.
These are real issues, real problems and they require real honesty and real courage to tackle them. Get lost in a 'racist! racist!' debate, and we might as well all pack the fudge up and go home, because that's getting us NO-WHERE!
punk_is_back`
Ilie Dumitrescu
I have a friend who is of Pakistani extraction, fairly modern however and she has a big bone to pick with men of her own race. She claims that almost every Pakistani boy she knows in the west midlands think white girls are easy trash and there to be used and abused until they are married. Apparently the situation is the same in Sweden as well when it comes to this. Its thoroughly disgusting to think that there are people like that out there. I wouldn't say this is racially motivated however they're not doing it because they "Hate" white girls but because their prejudices make them think that they are easy prey.
Leeds Spur
Banned
Let’s be honest. There’s a clear link with Islam
David Aaronovitch
Published at 12:01AM, May 10 2012
Sex grooming is committed by misogynists who want to control women’s modesty. It is a cousin of honour killing
Yesterday morning I woke up to the smell of smoke. It was coming from my radio. The Deputy Children’s Commissioner Sue Berelowitz was being interviewed about the Rochdale grooming case. “It’s not a problem confined to one community,” she told listeners. “It is absolutely happening across all ethnic and religious groups.”
The problem was, she suggested, that people were now looking for this one pattern — street grooming by groups of men from the Pakistani community — and wrongly finding it. Ms Berelowitz then blew a little more fog over the subject by invoking 14-year-old boys who abuse 11-year-old girls, and then disappeared into her own mist.
I understand her desire for obfuscation. The crime is horrible — our reporter Andrew Norfolk described yesterday how underage girls were multiply raped on a bare mattress above a kebab shop. And there are people in this country whose prejudices and politics are well served by suggesting that this is what Muslim migrants are like. Put the two together and you can easily come up with something that smells like Nick Griffin.
But what does Ms Berelowitz know that Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation, whom I met in Rochdale seven years ago, doesn’t? Pointing out that of 68 recent convictions involving street grooming 59 were of British Pakistani men, Mr Shafiq concluded with characteristic straightforwardness that the community clearly had a problem. In his view, a minority of Pakistani men had got it into their heads that white girls were fair game.
What information did she have that Nazir Afzal, Chief Crown Prosecutor for northwest England and the man leading the prosecution in this case, didn’t? He blamed “imported cultural baggage”. “[The men] think that women are some lesser being. The availability of vulnerable young white girls is what has drawn the men to them.”
What does she understand that Martin Narey, former head of Barnardo’s, who has been achingly careful on this subject, doesn’t quite get? “For this particular type of crime ... there is very troubling evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the prosecutions for such offences,” he said on Tuesday.
What is her experience of life in these northern towns that leads her to contradict Ann Cryer, the former Labour MP for Keighley, whose warnings on this subject went unheeded for years? The police and social services, Ms Cryer charges, “were petrified of being called racist ... They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them.”
And so on. If you cannot call the thing what it is, then not only will you fail with policies aimed at stopping it, but you will also encourage the very forces that you most fear. It is precisely into the gap between the elite’s description of the world and the reality that people face that the extremist steps.
So here are the bald facts about this specific kind of abuse. Men, many middle-aged and most of previous good character, and largely from one community, have been committing a particular series of sexual crimes almost entirely against young girls. Why? Almost certainly because of their attitudes towards women and sex.
This country has witnessed social double standards like these before. Back in the Victorian heyday of 1885 the journalist (and later editor of The Times) William Stead published a series of articles about child prostitution and seduction under the title “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon”. For many Victorians, whose womenfolk were supposedly revered, sex with vulnerable girls was permitted. With virginity prized, much sexual fantasy centred on the pleasure of “deflowerment”. In 1873 the expulsion of three Wellington schoolboys who had “deflowered” a 14-year-old serving girl was overturned by the board of governors. A master who supported the expulsion described the governors as having acted “like a pack of cynical, hoary old sinners, who looked upon youthful immorality ... as a sort of childish complaint like measles!”
Complacent? I was struck by an article by a pair of criminology researchers at UCL, written in the wake of the Rochdale convictions. They were anxious to do a Berelowitz, urging people not to arrive at hasty judgments. “As researchers specialising in this crime, we are repeatedly asked: ‘Are on-street groomers Pakistani?’ The honest answer,” they said, “is yes and no.” As to their religion: “The defendants in question are at most nominally Muslim. Practising Muslims certainly aren’t supposed to have sex with children.”
Can you imagine such a sentence being written by academics about Catholic priests involved with abuse? That the priests were only nominally Catholic because they aren’t supposed to have sex with children (or indeed, anyone)? No, me neither.
Of course it is no more a tenet of Islam that girls should be seduced than it is of Rome that altar boys be abused. But the fact that it happens must tell us something. And this is the something that I think Rochdale suggests. It reminds us that misogyny is a huge problem in many cultures, and in some more than others. Many Muslims and Muslim communities are modern in their desire for equal freedoms for men and women, boys and girls. But others most certainly are not.
Take the idea of what constitutes a bad and a good woman. According to much Islamic (and some Judaistic) teaching the modest woman keeps her eyes downcast, covers her hair or her face, her voice is quiet, she does not speak to unmarried men. It follows that the woman whose eyes go where they will, whose hair is subject to an almost male freedom, whose voice is heard and who speaks to whomever she likes, is immodest. It’s a step on the way to the idea that she is “asking for it”.
The worst misogyny is often practised by those who claim to venerate women. What they really want to do is to control their women. In more backward and rural cultures this desire for control can justify forced marriage, child marriage, honour crimes and female genital mutilation. Grooming can be a second cousin to these crimes.
But there are beams in all our eyes. Still, in our society, women are subjected to abuse as bitches and “ho”s, ridiculed for their appearance and somehow incapable of being bishops. Feminism has gone too far? It’s gone nowhere near far enough. Feminism has gone mad? It ought to be as mad as hell.
As we also ought to be mad as hell about the neglect of our most vulnerable kids. It is an inferior culture that treats women and girls as men’s possessions and that regulates them according to their supposed effect on men. It is a deficient one that fails to care for and protect its children.
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David Aaronovitch
Published at 12:01AM, May 10 2012
Sex grooming is committed by misogynists who want to control women’s modesty. It is a cousin of honour killing
Yesterday morning I woke up to the smell of smoke. It was coming from my radio. The Deputy Children’s Commissioner Sue Berelowitz was being interviewed about the Rochdale grooming case. “It’s not a problem confined to one community,” she told listeners. “It is absolutely happening across all ethnic and religious groups.”
The problem was, she suggested, that people were now looking for this one pattern — street grooming by groups of men from the Pakistani community — and wrongly finding it. Ms Berelowitz then blew a little more fog over the subject by invoking 14-year-old boys who abuse 11-year-old girls, and then disappeared into her own mist.
I understand her desire for obfuscation. The crime is horrible — our reporter Andrew Norfolk described yesterday how underage girls were multiply raped on a bare mattress above a kebab shop. And there are people in this country whose prejudices and politics are well served by suggesting that this is what Muslim migrants are like. Put the two together and you can easily come up with something that smells like Nick Griffin.
But what does Ms Berelowitz know that Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation, whom I met in Rochdale seven years ago, doesn’t? Pointing out that of 68 recent convictions involving street grooming 59 were of British Pakistani men, Mr Shafiq concluded with characteristic straightforwardness that the community clearly had a problem. In his view, a minority of Pakistani men had got it into their heads that white girls were fair game.
What information did she have that Nazir Afzal, Chief Crown Prosecutor for northwest England and the man leading the prosecution in this case, didn’t? He blamed “imported cultural baggage”. “[The men] think that women are some lesser being. The availability of vulnerable young white girls is what has drawn the men to them.”
What does she understand that Martin Narey, former head of Barnardo’s, who has been achingly careful on this subject, doesn’t quite get? “For this particular type of crime ... there is very troubling evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the prosecutions for such offences,” he said on Tuesday.
What is her experience of life in these northern towns that leads her to contradict Ann Cryer, the former Labour MP for Keighley, whose warnings on this subject went unheeded for years? The police and social services, Ms Cryer charges, “were petrified of being called racist ... They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them.”
And so on. If you cannot call the thing what it is, then not only will you fail with policies aimed at stopping it, but you will also encourage the very forces that you most fear. It is precisely into the gap between the elite’s description of the world and the reality that people face that the extremist steps.
So here are the bald facts about this specific kind of abuse. Men, many middle-aged and most of previous good character, and largely from one community, have been committing a particular series of sexual crimes almost entirely against young girls. Why? Almost certainly because of their attitudes towards women and sex.
This country has witnessed social double standards like these before. Back in the Victorian heyday of 1885 the journalist (and later editor of The Times) William Stead published a series of articles about child prostitution and seduction under the title “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon”. For many Victorians, whose womenfolk were supposedly revered, sex with vulnerable girls was permitted. With virginity prized, much sexual fantasy centred on the pleasure of “deflowerment”. In 1873 the expulsion of three Wellington schoolboys who had “deflowered” a 14-year-old serving girl was overturned by the board of governors. A master who supported the expulsion described the governors as having acted “like a pack of cynical, hoary old sinners, who looked upon youthful immorality ... as a sort of childish complaint like measles!”
Complacent? I was struck by an article by a pair of criminology researchers at UCL, written in the wake of the Rochdale convictions. They were anxious to do a Berelowitz, urging people not to arrive at hasty judgments. “As researchers specialising in this crime, we are repeatedly asked: ‘Are on-street groomers Pakistani?’ The honest answer,” they said, “is yes and no.” As to their religion: “The defendants in question are at most nominally Muslim. Practising Muslims certainly aren’t supposed to have sex with children.”
Can you imagine such a sentence being written by academics about Catholic priests involved with abuse? That the priests were only nominally Catholic because they aren’t supposed to have sex with children (or indeed, anyone)? No, me neither.
Of course it is no more a tenet of Islam that girls should be seduced than it is of Rome that altar boys be abused. But the fact that it happens must tell us something. And this is the something that I think Rochdale suggests. It reminds us that misogyny is a huge problem in many cultures, and in some more than others. Many Muslims and Muslim communities are modern in their desire for equal freedoms for men and women, boys and girls. But others most certainly are not.
Take the idea of what constitutes a bad and a good woman. According to much Islamic (and some Judaistic) teaching the modest woman keeps her eyes downcast, covers her hair or her face, her voice is quiet, she does not speak to unmarried men. It follows that the woman whose eyes go where they will, whose hair is subject to an almost male freedom, whose voice is heard and who speaks to whomever she likes, is immodest. It’s a step on the way to the idea that she is “asking for it”.
The worst misogyny is often practised by those who claim to venerate women. What they really want to do is to control their women. In more backward and rural cultures this desire for control can justify forced marriage, child marriage, honour crimes and female genital mutilation. Grooming can be a second cousin to these crimes.
But there are beams in all our eyes. Still, in our society, women are subjected to abuse as bitches and “ho”s, ridiculed for their appearance and somehow incapable of being bishops. Feminism has gone too far? It’s gone nowhere near far enough. Feminism has gone mad? It ought to be as mad as hell.
As we also ought to be mad as hell about the neglect of our most vulnerable kids. It is an inferior culture that treats women and girls as men’s possessions and that regulates them according to their supposed effect on men. It is a deficient one that fails to care for and protect its children.
Post a commentRecommend (287)PrintEmailShare