***OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs. READING - OMT***

[braineclipse]

Because it doesnt play to our existing players' strengths. We dont have a natural playmaker for the DM role, so we need to play a holding DM like Parker or Sando to protect the back line. Lennon/Walker and Bale to be wing backs. They will get the ball more in deeper positions and be able to inflict the damage on the counter attack

Friedel/Lloris

Calker
Dawson
Vert

Sandro/Parker

Lennon Bale

Sigg Dembele Dempsey

Ade

I disagree. Both Dembele and Hudd can play as a deep playmaker. I think Dembele will get that job.

Lennon has never played as a wing back as far as I know, Walker is attacking, but not great on the ball and not a natural wing back. I can't think of any time either Caulker or Dawson have played in a back 3. Sigg has done his best job in the centre, just behind a striker, not as the right sided player of a front 3. We have mainly the squad that finished 4th last season playing almost exclusively with a back 4, our manager who has picked our transfer targets this summer has just about always played with a back 4. To say that a back 3 fits our squad better than a back 4 you have to give some kind of argument supporting that.

4-2-3-1 actually allows Bale and Lennon to be in more advanced positions when we win the ball and thus be more effective when counter attacking.

 

[Pirate55]

I disagree. Both Dembele and Hudd can play as a deep playmaker. I think Dembele will get that job.

Lennon has never played as a wing back as far as I know, Walker is attacking, but not great on the ball and not a natural wing back. I can't think of any time either Caulker or Dawson have played in a back 3. Sigg has done his best job in the centre, just behind a striker, not as the right sided player of a front 3. We have mainly the squad that finished 4th last season playing almost exclusively with a back 4, our manager who has picked our transfer targets this summer has just about always played with a back 4. To say that a back 3 fits our squad better than a back 4 you have to give some kind of argument supporting that.
4-2-3-1 actually allows Bale and Lennon to be in more advanced positions when we win the ball and thus be more effective when counter attacking.

I already said earlier in this thread that I dont expect AVB to go to three at the back.

I do however think this formation does suit our current in-form players better. BAE and Walker have been appalling this season and therefore a three centre back solution would enable them to be axed. Lennon does play very deep on occasions and would make an ideal wingback imo. Both Bale and Lennon would get more ball time in those positions and make up the wide players. Sigg would therefore play as an old fashioned inside forward on the right and Dempsey in the same positon on the left - both supporting Ade. Parker/ Sandro would cover the centre backs allowing Dembele to play his CM role, bringing the ball out of defence, either by dribbling or spraying passes around and allowing the transition from defence to attack. This formation has goals written all over it.

When attacking we would be:

Lennon....................................Bale

---------- Dembele--------------------

-----Sigg----------Dempsey-----------

-----------Ade-------------------------


With Lennon and Bale in more withdrawn postions it would enable them to get on the ball more and be much more difficult to mark. I think they would be more effective in that role and still provide the width we need.

 

[thfcsteff]

My biggest concern worth Sigurdsson is his close control/ability to retain possession in the attacking third. For him to be truly successful for us, he has to make better use of the ball when he does get it. It's one thing VdV was able to do, even if (for me) he tended to drift sometimes...of course, the truth is, it will take us a while to get over the loss of Modric. He was so utterly integral to everything we have done for the last three seasons that it is only natural we'd hurt when he left.

Personally, at Reading, I'd go for this.


Lloris


Walker Daws Verts BAE

Parker (if fit)

Lennon Dembele Bale

Dempsey

Ade

I love Sandro but would equally love the chance to give him a rest/recharge. Equally, I'd rest Gallas right now too, and gamble on the fact that the return of Daws would be leader enough.

My bench.

Friedel, Defoe, Caulker, Townshend, Carroll (sorry Wriggly!!!!!), Livermore, Sigurdsson

If we find ourselves ahead, and he wants to make subs, I hope he makes attacking ones which continue to ask questions. Of course the moment he its Daws back in, we cannot really play the high-line game he wants, but I feel he will also have to adapt a little bit as we get thing rolling/dig out our first win.

 

[Spursalot]

I already said earlier in this thread that I dont expect AVB to go to three at the back.

I do however think this formation does suit our current in-form players better. BAE and Walker have been appalling this season and therefore a three centre back solution would enable them to be axed. Lennon does play very deep on occasions and would make an ideal wingback imo. Both Bale and Lennon would get more ball time in those positions and make up the wide players. Sigg would therefore play as an old fashioned inside forward on the right and Dempsey in the same positon on the left - both supporting Ade. Parker/ Sandro would cover the centre backs allowing Dembele to play his CM role, bringing the ball out of defence, either by dribbling or spraying passes around and allowing the transition from defence to attack. This formation has goals written all over it.

I'm curious who in our team you think is currently 'in-form', I can see about one player, and the formation doesn't really matter to him because he'd stay in goal. It might take out one or two out of form players, but there is no way of knowing how well the players coming in would do, so it's a gamble either way.


We did try three at the back last season for a couple of the cup games. It looked atrocious and we struggled to beat lower league teams.

 

[Pirate55]

I'm curious who in our team you think is currently 'in-form', I can see about one player, and the formation doesn't really matter to him because he'd stay in goal. It might take out one or two out of form players, but there is no way of knowing how well the players coming in would do, so it's a gamble either way.


We did try three at the back last season for a couple of the cup games. It looked atrocious and we struggled to beat lower league teams.

I agree with that. No-one (apart from Brad) is exactly "in-form" at the moment. I hope that players like dempsey, dembele and sigg can bring their form at the end of last season to re-vitalise us. I think at Stoke away we went three at the back last season and really dominated the second half, played really attacking football and should have won the game.

My essential point is that the existing team and formation doesnt really seem to be working. I am trying to accomodate the new signings in their best positions and at the same time axe our worst (albeit relative) performers. That is why I suggested three at the back. I dont see AVB playing that way though.

We will almost certainly play 4 at the back and without adequate replacements for Walker and BAE, we are stuck with them in the full back positions.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

My essential point is that the existing team and formation doesnt really seem to be working. I am trying to accomodate the new signings in their best positions and at the same time axe our worst (albeit relative) performers. That is why I suggested three at the back. I dont see AVB playing that way though.

What if the new signings best positions are within the formation we currently play? What if they were brought with the express purpose of making it work?

 

[Pirate55]

What if the new signings best positions are within the formation we currently play? What if they were brought with the express purpose of making it work?

If that were the case, who is the replacement for Modric and who replaces VDV? We are trying a new formation this year not last year's template.

Without Moutinho, we need to adapt to what we have got available to us.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If that were the case, who is the replacement for Modric and who replaces VDV? We are trying a new formation this year not last year's template.

Without Moutinho, we need to adapt to what we have got available to us.

If we are trying a new formation and not last years - do we NEED to replace Modric and VDV?

IMO we arent playing the same way as we did last season. We are playing 4231 and not 4411 - we have a different set up/system.

I think Dembele will provide creativity from CM with his attacking runs, I think Dempsey will provide attacking threat (goals/assists) from the centre of the attacking 3 and I think Adebayor will be a much more effective striker in this way of playing than Defoe.

I think having Adebayor will make the ball stick in the box more, as well as giving Bale/Lennon/Ekotto/Walker a proper target to aim for in the box.

I think having Dempsey between the lines will allow him to pick passes and make runs into the box for goals.

I think Dembele will create a great deal of space by dribbling out of tight areas with the ball, allowing Dempsey/Bale/Lennon more opportunities to be effective.

All within the confines of the way we have set up the first three games this season. I think they will improve what we are doing, rather than lead us to change it.

 

[Pirate55]

If we are trying a new formation and not last years - do we NEED to replace Modric and VDV?

IMO we arent playing the same way as we did last season. We are playing 4231 and not 4411 - we have a different set up/system.

I think Dembele will provide creativity from CM with his attacking runs, I think Dempsey will provide attacking threat (goals/assists) from the centre of the attacking 3 and I think Adebayor will be a much more effective striker in this way of playing than Defoe.

I think having Adebayor will make the ball stick in the box more, as well as giving Bale/Lennon/Ekotto/Walker a proper target to aim for in the box.

I think having Dempsey between the lines will allow him to pick passes and make runs into the box for goals.

I think Dembele will create a great deal of space by dribbling out of tight areas with the ball, allowing Dempsey/Bale/Lennon more opportunities to be effective.

All within the confines of the way we have set up the first three games this season. I think they will improve what we are doing, rather than lead us to change it.

I agree with all that - going forward. But it doesnt "solve" the problem of Walker and BAE. Defensively, we have two centre backs and two dodgy full backs. If they are not protected by a Sandro or a Parker, then we will continue to suffer defensive lapses. If you play say Parker in the DM role, would you then play dembele in the other defensive mid role instead of Livermore, as has been suggested?

That makes 6. So who are the four attackers? Ade plus Lennon, Bale and Dempsey/Sigg? This will still I think leave us short in the opponents box and not solve our lack of goals. My suggested team and formation does these addtional things:

1. Solidifies our central defence
2. Gets rid of our worst performing players (Livermore, Walker and BAE)
3. Allows Lennon and Bale to get on the ball more and be more difficult to mark
4. Gives Dembele a much freer role and more licence to attack
5. Brings in Sigg and Dempsey in their preferred positions
6. Gives us more of a goal threat with more players likely to get in the box naturally (Ade, Dempsey and Sigg)

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ha! You are like a jumping bean leaping from different angles all the time :lol:

Heres a thought, if the system works better with new additions, the midfield will function better - the defense will have more protection.

Being in the midfield two does not denote being defensive. Im seeing it as a defensive player, and more of a box to box player.

Sandro or Parker are pure defensive cover. Dembele however will help defensively when required but move forward with play when we attack. I have no doubt there will even be times when Dempsey is helping out.

Im imagining longer term the team as such (based upon our starting set up in the games so far):

.......................Lloris
Walker.......Kaboul.......Vertonghen.....Ekotto
................Sandro......Dembele
.....Lennon......Dempsey.......Bale
....................Adebayor

With Friedel, Sigurdsson, Defoe, Parker, Huddlestone.... we have plenty of options besides as well.

As a defensive shape that is solid and Dembele helps. As an offensive shape it ends up more as

............................Lloris
.............Kaboul......Sandro....Vertonghen
Walker........Dembele........Dempsey.......Ekotto
.......Lennon.........Adebayor.......Bale

Dempsey off of Adebayor, Dembele in the space as fulcrum, Bale and Lennon cutting in closer to Adebayor - Walker and Ekotto providing width while the wide players cut in. It absolutely LOADS players in advanced attacking positions.

Honestly, when it is actually functioning, I see it as benig a very decent side. I can see defensive solidity in the shape, (and the fact virtually all the players are "units") and I see offensivley we can dominate teams and load the attacking positions.

I dont see anyhing "wrong" with the set up inherantly, just that as yet it hasnt clicked or been complete.

 

[Pirate55]

Ha! You are like a jumping bean leaping from different angles all the time :lol:

Heres a thought, if the system works better with new additions, the midfield will function better - the defense will have more protection.

Being in the midfield two does not denote being defensive. Im seeing it as a defensive player, and more of a box to box player.

Sandro or Parker are pure defensive cover. Dembele however will help defensively when required but move forward with play when we attack. I have no doubt there will even be times when Dempsey is helping out.

Im imagining longer term the team as such (based upon our starting set up in the games so far):

.......................Lloris
Walker.......Kaboul.......Vertonghen.....Ekotto
................Sandro......Dembele
.....Lennon......Dempsey.......Bale
....................Adebayor

With Friedel, Sigurdsson, Defoe, Parker, Huddlestone.... we have plenty of options besides as well.

As a defensive shape that is solid and Dembele helps. As an offensive shape it ends up more as

............................Lloris
.............Kaboul......Sandro....Vertonghen
Walker........Dembele........Dempsey.......Ekotto
.......Lennon.........Adebayor.......Bale

Dempsey off of Adebayor, Dembele in the space as fulcrum, Bale and Lennon cutting in closer to Adebayor - Walker and Ekotto providing width while the wide players cut in. It absolutely LOADS players in advanced attacking positions.

Honestly, when it is actually functioning, I see it as benig a very decent side. I can see defensive solidity in the shape, (and the fact virtually all the players are "units") and I see offensivley we can dominate teams and load the attacking positions.

I dont see anyhing "wrong" with the set up inherantly, just that as yet it hasnt clicked or been complete.

I dont see anything "wrong" long term with that set up either. The problem is that for the Reading game, we dont have Kaboul fit and Walker and BAE have been worse than useless this season both defensively and going forward. Also, you dont include Sigg, who had a good pre-season with us, scoring several times.

My suggestion was JUST for the Reading game, given our players current availability and form. Forgive me, I thought that what was what this discussion thread was for, not idealising what our long term tactics and team should be.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Then I disagree. For Reading that is the team I would play. The sooner it gets established, the sooner it beds in, the better.

If we are aiming to set up a new system for the longer term then tinkling about switching formations while the new one is supposed to be taking effect is pretty destructive IMHO. It needs as much game time as possible.

And with those additions (Kaboul accepted of course) I believe it will be a lot better than it has been. Im certain it wont[edit] be perfect, but Im also certain it should show improvement on what we have done this season.

Which is dominate sides home and away only to not convert (or create enough) chances. Adding a New AM, New Striker and a Creative CM should go a long way to helping with that immediately.

Walker/Ekotto - Need time to adjust to their roles just the same as anyone. If the midfield is more complete I think their jobs will be easier. If the forwards get us goals they will have less pressure on them defensively.

It all just needs time, not radical change game to game


[Edit] Dempsey is in for me if fit because he is more experienced, both in general and in this league, and also already has a working partnership with Dembele. For the short term we need results and I believe this is a better option. Should Sigurdsson play though I would be far from disappointed, very happy to have him in the squad and team if he is selected.

 

[Pirate55]

Then I disagree. For Reading that is the team I would play. The sooner it gets established, the sooner it beds in, the better.

If we are aiming to set up a new system for the longer term then tinkling about switching formations while the new one is supposed to be taking effect is pretty destructive IMHO. It needs as much game time as possible.

And with those additions (Kaboul accepted of course) I believe it will be a lot better than it has been. Im certain it wont[edit] be perfect, but Im also certain it should show improvement on what we have done this season.

Which is dominate sides home and away only to not convert (or create enough) chances. Adding a New AM, New Striker and a Creative CM should go a long way to helping with that immediately.

Walker/Ekotto - Need time to adjust to their roles just the same as anyone. If the midfield is more complete I think their jobs will be easier. If the forwards get us goals they will have less pressure on them defensively.

It all just needs time, not radical change game to game


[Edit] Dempsey is in for me if fit because he is more experienced, both in general and in this league, and also already has a working partnership with Dembele. For the short term we need results and I believe this is a better option. Should Sigurdsson play though I would be far from disappointed, very happy to have him in the squad and team if he is selected.

Ok - you have persuaded me. My three at the back was a knee jerk reaction to Kaboul being out and the dire form of BAE and Walker.

I accept the changes you suggest will (hopefully) improve what we have seen so far and that evolution not a radical tactic change is probably for the best. Anyway, I certainly hope you are right and that we play better at Reading.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So do I! Does of course depend on what team he puts out though...

 

[Kingdawson]

What if we play a team with Sandro Dembele, Sig, Bale and Ade all playing?

If Parker is 100% fit and starts i'd be more confident.

Do you know why i'm really demoralised and have no confidence? because i've seen something in the last 2 games that has confirmed to me it Gallas and Vetonghen might not work. Both the shots the opposition had for the goals (WBA and Norwich) could have been blocked if one of our back four threw their body on the line and really went for it. We have nobody in our back 4 that is willing to do that bar Dawson and to a lesser extent Kaboul. Most other teams have that 1 defender that will put his body on the line but we don't so unless Dawson and Parker start i can see us playing ok but getting nothing.

 

[Bullet]

Don't forget Sigurdsson had happy days at the Madejski, so he will super-pumped up to score against them, whether he starts or comes on later.

 

[diego_maradona]

If Parker is 100% fit and starts i'd be more confident.

Do you know why i'm really demoralised and have no confidence? because i've seen something in the last 2 games that has confirmed to me it Gallas and Vetonghen might not work. Both the shots the opposition had for the goals (WBA and Norwich) could have been blocked if one of our back four threw their body on the line and really went for it. We have nobody in our back 4 that is willing to do that bar Dawson and to a lesser extent Kaboul. Most other teams have that 1 defender that will put his body on the line but we don't so unless Dawson and Parker start i can see us playing ok but getting nothing.

I think that desire you speak of is lacking at both ends of the pitch to be honest. That real desire to get on the end of a cross. Attack it. Or as you say throw your body in the way. Your so right, Daws and Parker are the ones we need against the likes of Norwich, Reading, WBA who first compete ahead of the other things.

 

[NWND]

I think that desire you speak of is lacking at both ends of the pitch to be honest. That real desire to get on the end of a cross. Attack it. Or as you say throw your body in the way. Your so right, Daws and Parker are the ones we need against the likes of Norwich, Reading, WBA who first compete ahead of the other things.

I think any team could do with a balance. I'm also not convinced that there is any merit to the idea that Dawson can't play in a high-line.

1) The high-line hasn't been as big a feature of our opening games as people thought - we press high, but we've done it intelligently and not all out suicide like what happened at Chelsea. None of the goals conceded against us have come from a 'high line'
2) Dawson actually likes attacking the ball high - one of the most positive aspects of his game for me is that he actively attacks the ball outside of our penalty area, rather than wait for the ball to drop into a dangerous position. I actually think with the pace of our full-backs we can afford to have two 'slower' centre-backs in Daws and Vertonghen.

Daws is the stopper (Vidic style) and Verts is the sweeper (Rio style).

The main reason why I think AVB doesn't see Daws in the starting line-up is that he isn't a great user of the ball and is prone to hoofing or trying the direct approach. But I don't see why this can't be coached out of him and to be fair it needs the whole team to help him out.

I think when we've been hanging on a bit against WBA and Norwich we could have done with some whole-hearted no-nonsense grit in the centre, which Parker and Daws do provide.

 

[Spursalot]

Ok - you have persuaded me. My three at the back was a knee jerk reaction to Kaboul being out and the dire form of BAE and Walker.

I accept the changes you suggest will (hopefully) improve what we have seen so far and that evolution not a radical tactic change is probably for the best. Anyway, I certainly hope you are right and that we play better at Reading.

I kind of get what you mean, if the current formation is not working it makes sense to fix it.


The main issue is that you could be forever changing formations and the players would have to learn something new every week, which would not be helpful in any way.

 

[Belsizespur]

Must win?