OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Man U

[Craig_J]

FFS was up all night doing an essay and I slept right through the game!!!

Ah well, was it any good? I'll probably find somewhere online that has extended highlights.

And this result means I don't have to leave the forum.\o/

PS we scored TWO in the league without having a penalty.

 

[SUIYHA]

There were big signs of improvement today, which wasn't hard as things couldn't exactly get any worse, but it was an encouraging display. However, still some key problems to worry about.

Compared with Arsenal, City or Chelsea, United don't have anywhere near as much creative flair in the centre of the pitch, so starting Dembele, Paulinho and Sandro all together in central midfield, with Chadli drifting inwards, meant they'd struggle to create chances through the middle and would be restricted to trying to whip crosses in from out wide. This suits our defence (normally) and we should have been fine if it weren't for a howler from Walker and Lloris being too slow to get to that ball.

The problems for me are about the attack. Yes, this was our best attacking performance in a while and we should have scored some additional chances. But I think you should always expect to have a few chances that you miss. It's a numbers game, you can never take all of them. Last season, we had 23 shots with 18 of them on target against Man Utd, with De Gea pulling off some top saves, then when Dempsey finally scored in the last minute it felt like we'd got a well deserved victory even though we'd only drawn the game. This time around, 10 shots with 4 on target, and it felt like we'd drawn the game because neither side had been good enough to win it.

We still have huge problems with players standing around ball watching when we're in possession, not busting a gut to find some space and create an option for a pass. Nor are they playing quick one touch football when a pass is received (bar Soldado in the first half that created the chance he missed). It's something that really needs to be worked on because you can't rely on Sandro scoring a 30 yard screamer every week, it just doesn't happen. This for me comes down to coaching.

Subs were poor today. I don't get what AVB sees in Chadli. He is a winger who can't cross and can't beat a man. Yes I know he put in a "defensive shift" and all, but that's not what he's there for. Lennon is a Leeds fan and hates Man Utd, therefore he always plays well against them and was doing so again until he was bizarrely substituted and the decision was rightfully booed. Lennon was doing very well now that he's back on the right hand side, if we'd had Townsend on the left we could have pegged them back, stretched the play, got more crosses into Soldado and stretched the play to create space for Paulinho to run into in the middle. Valencia's defensive work has been called into question this season too. Oh well.

Things were better today. But as this was the worst Man Utd team we've faced in a while and the worst performance we've put in against them for a while, it still wasn't good enough.

 

[DHSF]

How is the term unrepresentative?

Let's evaluate over the next few games, fair enough. That is quite different from what I was referring to. If you don't think some of the negative comments in this thread have been over the top then fine, whatever...



Personally I was surprised by that stat, I could have sworn that Lennon had been more involved than that and actually doing stuff on the ball. But I'm well aware that my memory is far from flawless. That to me makes a stat like that interesting.

I don't think anyone is saying that this particular stat is the answer to everything, but it's another piece of information and for me at least worth bringing up. It's not an old chestnut, if you don't want to discuss things based on stats at all I suggest you ignore all posts containing stats as it's something others do want to discuss.

Of course its unrepresentative simply because criticism isnt always about negativity or positivity - its about highlighting areas of development. I think everyone can see it was a much better performance than even against the likes of Chelscum earlier BUT we also know there are still improvements to be made. I think I know hat you are referring to when you bandied about the term 'negativity' but I would call that being cautious and not jumping the gun

 

[Jordinho]

Of course its unrepresentative simply because criticism isnt always about negativity or positivity - its about highlighting areas of development. I think everyone can see it was a much better performance than even against the likes of Chelscum earlier BUT we also know there are still improvements to be made. I think I know hat you are referring to when you bandied about the term 'negativity' but I would call that being cautious and not jumping the gun

If you read this thread you'll find several posters saying we'll lose, play ****, AVB will pick the wrong team etc. During the course of the game and afterwards it's almost as if they're trying to justify it by only focusing on things that went wrong or weren't perfect. If you're in the stands you might let off a little sigh or groan when someone has a poor touch or misplaces a pass, but to take the time to write something that emphasises the mistakes and makes them look much bigger than they were? All this snowballs into what can be mistaken for a completely different game, one where we actually were ****.

 

[braineclipse]

Of course its unrepresentative simply because criticism isnt always about negativity or positivity - its about highlighting areas of development. I think everyone can see it was a much better performance than even against the likes of Chelscum earlier BUT we also know there are still improvements to be made. I think I know hat you are referring to when you bandied about the term 'negativity' but I would call that being cautious and not jumping the gun

A direct quote from this thread, the kind of negativity I'm talking about: "Its saved his job for another week but thats it."

Call it whatever you want mate. I didn't say all criticism was unbearably negative, I was talking about some of the comments in this thread. If you felt you put forward criticism or you agreed with criticism and you didn't think that deserved to be called negative then fine, but that doesn't make my comment unrepresentative.

 

[Pirate55]

There were big signs of improvement today, which wasn't hard as things couldn't exactly get any worse, but it was an encouraging display. However, still some key problems to worry about.

Compared with Arsenal, City or Chelsea, United don't have anywhere near as much creative flair in the centre of the pitch, so starting Dembele, Paulinho and Sandro all together in central midfield, with Chadli drifting inwards, meant they'd struggle to create chances through the middle and would be restricted to trying to whip crosses in from out wide. This suits our defence (normally) and we should have been fine if it weren't for a howler from Walker and Lloris being too slow to get to that ball.

The problems for me are about the attack. Yes, this was our best attacking performance in a while and we should have scored some additional chances. But I think you should always expect to have a few chances that you miss. It's a numbers game, you can never take all of them. Last season, we had 23 shots with 18 of them on target against Man Utd, with De Gea pulling off some top saves, then when Dempsey finally scored in the last minute it felt like we'd got a well deserved victory even though we'd only drawn the game. This time around, 10 shots with 4 on target, and it felt like we'd drawn the game because neither side had been good enough to win it.

We still have huge problems with players standing around ball watching when we're in possession, not busting a gut to find some space and create an option for a pass. Nor are they playing quick one touch football when a pass is received (bar Soldado in the first half that created the chance he missed). It's something that really needs to be worked on because you can't rely on Sandro scoring a 30 yard screamer every week, it just doesn't happen. This for me comes down to coaching.

Subs were poor today. I don't get what AVB sees in Chadli. He is a winger who can't cross and can't beat a man. Yes I know he put in a "defensive shift" and all, but that's not what he's there for. Lennon is a Leeds fan and hates Man Utd, therefore he always plays well against them and was doing so again until he was bizarrely substituted and the decision was rightfully booed. Lennon was doing very well now that he's back on the right hand side, if we'd had Townsend on the left we could have pegged them back, stretched the play, got more crosses into Soldado and stretched the play to create space for Paulinho to run into in the middle. Valencia's defensive work has been called into question this season too. Oh well.

Things were better today. But as this was the worst Man Utd team we've faced in a while and the worst performance we've put in against them for a while, it still wasn't good enough.

This 1000%. It is up to AVB to address this. Hope we see a vast improvement in the next two games - and for the rest of the season.

 

[DHSF]

A direct quote from this thread, the kind of negativity I'm talking about: "Its saved his job for another week but thats it."

Call it whatever you want mate. I didn't say all criticism was unbearably negative, I was talking about some of the comments in this thread. If you felt you put forward criticism or you agreed with criticism and you didn't think that deserved to be called negative then fine, but that doesn't make my comment unrepresentative.

Ok my bad - apologies.

BUT that direct quote I wouldnt even call negative - id call stupid. Theyre the comments we shouldnt in anyway take on board.

 

[braineclipse]

Ok my bad - apologies.

BUT that direct quote I wouldnt even call negative - id call stupid. Theyre the comments we shouldnt in anyway take on board.

See, I did think I was being kind...

 

[Rorschach]

Watching the gif of the Sandro goal, I just noticed that Soldado and Paulie were so static, it basically forced Sandro to shoot as he had no other option. That, in a microcosm, is what has been wrong with our season so far. Not enough movement. Lets hope AVB can change this very soon.

Couldn't agree more.

Another instance in the 2nd half I think Chadli had the ball in a relatively dangerous position and was looking for options. There were 5-6 Spurs players in the frame and every one of them was standing looking at Chadli. Not one of them moved an inch and as a result Chadli lost the ball and Utd broke up the pitch. In this same attack Utd had 4-5 runners milling around the Spurs defence, all of them in motion and either dragging players away or looking for a pass. In that 30 second window you could see one of the main reasons we don't threaten as other teams do.

That gripe aside I thought we were good today and probably deserved to nick it.

 

[Mumorn]

It was great to see Freund celebrating goals again today.

 

[Robspur12]

There were big signs of improvement today, which wasn't hard as things couldn't exactly get any worse, but it was an encouraging display. However, still some key problems to worry about.

Compared with Arsenal, City or Chelsea, United don't have anywhere near as much creative flair in the centre of the pitch, so starting Dembele, Paulinho and Sandro all together in central midfield, with Chadli drifting inwards, meant they'd struggle to create chances through the middle and would be restricted to trying to whip crosses in from out wide. This suits our defence (normally) and we should have been fine if it weren't for a howler from Walker and Lloris being too slow to get to that ball.

The problems for me are about the attack. Yes, this was our best attacking performance in a while and we should have scored some additional chances. But I think you should always expect to have a few chances that you miss. It's a numbers game, you can never take all of them. Last season, we had 23 shots with 18 of them on target against Man Utd, with De Gea pulling off some top saves, then when Dempsey finally scored in the last minute it felt like we'd got a well deserved victory even though we'd only drawn the game. This time around, 10 shots with 4 on target, and it felt like we'd drawn the game because neither side had been good enough to win it.

We still have huge problems with players standing around ball watching when we're in possession, not busting a gut to find some space and create an option for a pass. Nor are they playing quick one touch football when a pass is received (bar Soldado in the first half that created the chance he missed). It's something that really needs to be worked on because you can't rely on Sandro scoring a 30 yard screamer every week, it just doesn't happen. This for me comes down to coaching.

Subs were poor today. I don't get what AVB sees in Chadli. He is a winger who can't cross and can't beat a man. Yes I know he put in a "defensive shift" and all, but that's not what he's there for. Lennon is a Leeds fan and hates Man Utd, therefore he always plays well against them and was doing so again until he was bizarrely substituted and the decision was rightfully booed. Lennon was doing very well now that he's back on the right hand side, if we'd had Townsend on the left we could have pegged them back, stretched the play, got more crosses into Soldado and stretched the play to create space for Paulinho to run into in the middle. Valencia's defensive work has been called into question this season too. Oh well.

Things were better today. But as this was the worst Man Utd team we've faced in a while and the worst performance we've put in against them for a while, it still wasn't good enough.

Fantastic post wish I could put it so eloquently.=D>

 

[diego_maradona]

Just saw Soldados reaction to Sandros goal. That was brilliant

 

[lurker of old]

Good result, lots of positives....well done AVB, well done the team. COYS

 

[Libero]

Ball watched? He stuck to Smalling when united were attacking so Valencia couldn't play an out ball to him.
The guy made 2 interceptions. Only player who made more interceptions was Sandro and Vertonghen.
He constantly got back and worked his **** off. He wasnt his fault Valencia could beat Vertonghen with ease.

I cant think were you;ve got the idea that Townsend is the better defensive player

I didn't state that Townsend was a better player defensively in a individual sense. I said that the balance of the team defensively would have been no worse with Townsend and Lennon playing and that was as much to do with how poorly I felt Chadli was playing as it was about their respective abilities. As for defensive qualities, Townsend has pace and will track back with urgency if it is required - I have yet to see that of Chadli. For someone of his physical stature, he looks to me like someone who doesn't want to be touched which doesn't bode well in a league reknowned for its physical nature and demands.

He stuck to Smalling? He let his opposite number win every single header, virtually unchallenged. That's before I start on his whole percentage of passes thing which were mainly sideways and over 5 yards. I wouldn't mind if it was Vidic we were talking about but it's Smalling who is another example of a player nowhere near good enough to represent the champions of England but one who comfortably dealt with any threat that Chadli posed.

I have no issue with players who sacrifice their normal game to be solid but Chadli wasn't even that solid and posed no threat to Smalling either so to my mind he was of no real use to us during the game.

I like the player and I think he can be useful but he has to show more for me and it starts with growing a little bit of heart and fire and looking like he wants it.

 

[Libero]

Couldn't agree more.

Another instance in the 2nd half I think Chadli had the ball in a relatively dangerous position and was looking for options. There were 5-6 Spurs players in the frame and every one of them was standing looking at Chadli. Not one of them moved an inch and as a result Chadli lost the ball and Utd broke up the pitch. In this same attack Utd had 4-5 runners milling around the Spurs defence, all of them in motion and either dragging players away or looking for a pass. In that 30 second window you could see one of the main reasons we don't threaten as other teams do.

That gripe aside I thought we were good today and probably deserved to nick it.

I agree fully with the idea that we don't move into space enough and pull teams around but the critiscm of Soldado for Sandro's goal is so so harsh. Before Sandro checked and after he checked back, Soldado is screaming to have the ball slid into him on the edge of the box and he is 1 v 1, readying himself to roll Evans I think? He totally wants the ball and he should have got it despite the finish from Sandro.

 

[Cochise]

What was Soldado doing when Sandro scored, did the impact of the ball hitting the back of the net knock him off his feet?

The reason we looked so much better today was because UTD tried to beat us, unlike the other teams who come to the lane to shut up shop for 90 mins. This left space for us to play in. I don't think we can celebrate too much though as it is another game where our forward line hasn't scored (by which i include striker, AM and wide players). As SUIYHA has said, our movement is poor but that's been symptomatic of this team for over a year. Remember Bale's goal vs Southampton where not one player bar Holtby made a movement to show for the ball?? Lennons chance from Soldados pass was a sign of improvement on that point, a winger attacking the space left by the striker.

 

[thfcsteff]

Watching the gif of the Sandro goal, I just noticed that Soldado and Paulie were so static, it basically forced Sandro to shoot as he had no other option. That, in a microcosm, is what has been wrong with our season so far. Not enough movement. Lets hope AVB can change this very soon.

Whaaaaat?

Paulinho checks inside for a pass, sees it isn't coming and so then checks back across to bring defender (I think it's Evans) with him to give Sandro the sight of goal to take a pop! As for Soldado, he's checked off Vidic at the same time Paulinho's checked inside in case that pass goes to Paulinho who will then quickly look to play it inside Vidic for Soldad to dart onto!!!!!

If you wanted to take a pop at Soldado today, it would surely have been for the first-half chance he missed when Paulinho slid a fantastic pass to him, which simply required him thwapping it back across De Gea. That was a striker's chance for sure!

 

[shaney]

Mayby Im missing something that others see, which is enough to give them hope and faith for the rest of a season. Personally I didnt see much of an improvement, as a team, over the 90 minutes. At the end of the day, this is the poorest Man Utd team we have faced since the 80's, and we still needed a wonder goal to get a draw out of the game. Deja vu from last season - simply replace "Bale wonder goal" to "Sandro wonder goal".

Huge game against Fulham. Does this point kick us on and show us genuine improvement or is it the same old same old and back to square one again ? Lets see.

 

[Daisuk]

If you wanted to take a pop at Soldado today, it would surely have been for the first-half chance he missed when Paulinho slid a fantastic pass to him, which simply required him thwapping it back across De Gea. That was a striker's chance for sure!

Ah, yeah, damnit, I just really feel with the guy. How his spirits could've been lifted had he only scored that.

Some good football yesterday and two good goals. Finally a game with us involved that I enjoyed watching again. Hope we keep it up.

 

[DHSF]

Whaaaaat?

Paulinho checks inside for a pass, sees it isn't coming and so then checks back across to bring defender (I think it's Evans) with him to give Sandro the sight of goal to take a pop! As for Soldado, he's checked off Vidic at the same time Paulinho's checked inside in case that pass goes to Paulinho who will then quickly look to play it inside Vidic for Soldad to dart onto!!!!!

If you wanted to take a pop at Soldado today, it would surely have been for the first-half chance he missed when Paulinho slid a fantastic pass to him, which simply required him thwapping it back across De Gea. That was a striker's chance for sure!

It was and I thought he would have had a bit more composure than that. He is a composed finisher but the miss yesterday highlighted that he is low on confidence and ultimately how he berated himself after shows the pressure he has.

The build up play was excellent though and his all round game is good.