***OMT*** Tottenham Hotspur vs Fulham

[Mumorn]

Benny's also bat**** crazy

Who speaks the truth.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Statto posted that AVB's win ratio is the best ever for a Spurs manager -- this was a response to me saying that I don't think we have played particularly well across AVB's 52 league games in charge. (IMO, we have been dogged and picked up points via spectacular goals, mainly from the boot of Bale. We don't look very good in attack as a unit, like Arsenal, City, even Liverpool do.)

So if the stats show his record to be the best of any Spurs boss, then you'd think -- if the stats are meaningful -- that the team we are watching would be the best, or one of the best, Spurs teams to have played in this history of the club. But that's obviously b*llocks; in short, stats don't always tell the full story.

I would bet that for every game under AVB that you could name me where we've looked dull and boring, I would name you a game where we've played good football and created chances throughout the match. It would probably stack up that your games are a lot of the home games we've played against lesser teams and a lot of my games are away games or against bigger sides at home.

I would then say that because of that, the disparity is intentional, and not a sign that we are about to fall apart any day now.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Who speaks the truth.

Even blind squirrels eventually find an acorn.

 

[the dza]

The two things don't always go hand in hand.

I've seen some fantastic looking Spurs teams who ended-up with nothing at the end of the season.

What AVB has achieved so far is a very solid base on which to improve on.

This is what I have been hoping for, but the performances of the last 5 or 6 games have shaken my faith that we will actually build on it. We seem to be stuck on a loop, as far as our attacking game goes. Only time will tell, but I have lost hope that AVB will actually improve us, and the only thing I can go on is the game's he managed us in so far. Have you seen any real improvement in our play as an attacking unit from the start of his tenure to now? I can honestly say that I haven't. To me, we look the same except that we don't have Bale now.

 

[Jurgen the German]

This is what I have been hoping for, but the performances of the last 5 or 6 games have shaken my faith that we will actually build on it. We seem to be stuck on a loop, as far as our attacking game goes. Only time will tell, but I have lost hope that AVB will actually improve us, and the only thing I can go on is the game's he managed us in so far. Have you seen any real improvement in our play as an attacking unit from the start of his tenure to now? I can honestly say that I haven't. To me, we look the same except that we don't have Bale now.

Same. Hopefully Lamela can be the next Bale

 

[Mumorn]

Even blind squirrels eventually find an acorn.

According to statistics, blind squirrels don't make it past 83 days. In that time, only their mother finds the acorn.

 

[THFC6061]

This is what I have been hoping for, but the performances of the last 5 or 6 games have shaken my faith that we will actually build on it. We seem to be stuck on a loop, as far as our attacking game goes. Only time will tell, but I have lost hope that AVB will actually improve us, and the only thing I can go on is the game's he managed us in so far. Have you seen any real improvement in our play as an attacking unit from the start of his tenure to now? I can honestly say that I haven't. To me, we look the same except that we don't have Bale now.

Losing Bale was a huge blow for us.

And losing King, Modric & Van der Vaart within the space of a year left us without our four best players.

Any team would struggle badly under those circumstances and trying to bed-in seven new players, who between them had never kicked a ball in the Premier League before, was a mammoth challenge.

To be in the position we find ourselves at the moment is certainly far better than we have a right to expect.

I feel that we will get stronger and improve as the season wears on, while clubs with fewer resources like Everton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Southampton (and dare I also add Liverpool & Manchester United) will fade away.

 

[King of Norway]

Great relief to get the win, but unfortunately I didn't see any signs of us finding an answer to our problems. We still find it extremely difficult to get any fluency to our game when playing against an established defence. The first 25 minutes were shocking, and althoguh we got slightly better after that, our chances mostly came from counter-attacks and long-range efforts, as usual.

Like I said at half time, I really wonder if we practice our build-up play at all. We don't seem to have any plan for it. Players get the ball, and they have no idea what to do with it, the players off the ball don't seem to have any idea where to move, and we don't have gifted/inventive enough players, especially in the middle of the park, to create openings through improvisation. If there is a pattern to our play, I have to say it is very difficult to spot. AVB has had the chance to implement a system of play now for one and a half year, and we are showing no signs of improving. Yes, players have come and gone, but Roberto Martinez, for example, seems to have been able to change Everton's style of play already.

I thought Defoe had a positive first half, and deserves a new chance of Saturday. Lennon was also positive when he was on the right, and that is also where he needs to be playing. **** our inverted wingers. They are doing us no good. We need to have proper width, at least one on flank. It gives us a much better balance, it makes the play less congested, it makes us less predictable, it means we get more balls into the box and it means that at least one of our players occasionaly is running towards the opponent's goal, rather than towards the middle of the park/our own goal.

Walker also had a decent game, so there were some positives, apart from the result only.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Losing Bale was a huge blow for us.

And losing King, Modric & Van der Vaart within the space of a year left us without our four best players.

Any team would struggle badly under those circumstances and trying to bed-in seven new players, who between them had never kicked a ball in the Premier League before, was a mammoth challenge.

To be in the position we find ourselves at the moment is certainly far better than we have a right to expect.

I feel that we will get stronger and improve as the season wears on, while clubs with fewer resources like Everton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Southampton (and dare I also add Liverpool & Manchester United) will fade away.

I know this is old ground, but we shot ourselves in the foot by selling VDV. Losing the other 3 was unavoidable.

 

[the dza]

What will end badly? We've been playing this way for a year and a half. We've had periods of good form and bad form. What suggests to you that it will all suddenly come crashing down around us?

To me it looks like we have a great platform without Bale to win games, and a squad full of talent. I can understand if people don't like the direction we are going but at least accept its merits of the idea behind it, but to outright say our approach is heading us down a dark path isn't really true.

Out of interest, do the people that don't like the way we are playing have an alternative system that they would like to see us utilise, that will also give us the best chance of punching above our financial weight and finishing ahead of our competitors in the other big sides? I ask this as a genuine question, and I am totally respectful of the decision to not like what we are currently doing. I personally feel though that we need our system to help us get to where we want to go, and a more gung ho style in every game would see us fall short as we have done years previously.

By ending badly, I mean that we will fail to achieve our goals (short-term, Champions League places, longer-term, challenging for the title). Bale's goals blasted us to our record (Premier League era) points total -- without a world-class match-winner capable of the spectacular on a consistent basis, my fear is that we will continue to labour in attack this season and struggle to score goals and consistently create good chances. My basis for this fear is not just the sum of the performances to date, but (imo) a lack of progress in out attacking play. Again, I can't really see any improvement in this regard from day 1 of AVB's reign 'til the present.

I don't have an issue with playing a slower-tempo, controlled style. But for us to be a successful team, we have to be able to create good chances. This season, we have won games with penalties and long shots. I don't think that's a recipe for success, particularly with the absence of a Bale calibre match-winner. Hence the low amount of goals scored so far and the poor showing of Soldado.

 

[the dza]

By the way, I have nothing personal against AVB, I actually quite like the bloke.

The same as I have nothing against his ardent fans/detractors on this board. We all see things differently I am sure, but I would like nothing better than for AVB to be a great success with us. The bottom line is, we all want what is best for Spurs. I am just losing faith in AVB...but if we can see some real progress in our attacking play and pick up some wins along the way, then faith will be restored, such is my fickle nature.

 

[Mumorn]

By the way, I have nothing personal against AVB, I actually quite like the bloke.

The same as I have nothing against his ardent fans/detractors on this board. We all see things differently I am sure, but I would like nothing better than for AVB to be a great success with us. The bottom line is, we all want what is best for Spurs. I am just losing faith in AVB...but if we can see some real progress in our attacking play and pick up some wins along the way, then faith will be restored, such is my fickle nature.

Have you not seen progress in our attacking play?

Personally I can see progress every week, I thought we looked good against Emirates Marketing Project despite the 6-0 loss, but I thought we certainly created chances and could have scored a few goals, the following week against United I thought we created good opportunities especially the Soldado chance and I think this week we created even more chances and looked good whenever we attacked Fulham, just finishing let us down, Defoe and Paulinho in particular.

 

[Pirate55]

What will end badly? We've been playing this way for a year and a half. We've had periods of good form and bad form. What suggests to you that it will all suddenly come crashing down around us?

To me it looks like we have a great platform without Bale to win games, and a squad full of talent. I can understand if people don't like the direction we are going but at least accept its merits of the idea behind it, but to outright say our approach is heading us down a dark path isn't really true.

Out of interest, do the people that don't like the way we are playing have an alternative system that they would like to see us utilise, that will also give us the best chance of punching above our financial weight and finishing ahead of our competitors in the other big sides? I ask this as a genuine question, and I am totally respectful of the decision to not like what we are currently doing. I personally feel though that we need our system to help us get to where we want to go, and a more gung ho style in every game would see us fall short as we have done years previously.

And I will try to give you an answer in the same respectful way you asked the question. While no great admirer of the man himself, I thoroughly enjoyed the STYLE of football we played under Harry.It also got us great results - 4th, 5th, 4th and we had some wonderful times, even reaching the QF of the CL and beating both Milan clubs along the way.

I believe we were one good forward away from establishing ourselves as a CL side every year. If the board had backed him in either of the last two January windows of his tenure, then I firmly believe that we could have had both success AND style. I was not a great fan of his and thought he let us down badly in his final season, but he had the knack of getting some of our players to really deliver. A tactical genius - far from it, but I really enjoyed the style. It got me excited and I was entertained by it.

I do not know how you and others can be so certain that the AVB philosophy will deliver success in the long term. For me, that is a complete leap of faith with little substance to back it up and turgid football to be endured in the meantime until it all somehow miraculously comes together. I hope you are right about the success bit, but as I said earlier it is not a style of football I enjoy watching. And what if you are wrong? What if we have to endure this style WITHOUT any success? When will you consider the AVB experiment will have run its course?

 

[stinkfoot]

KD I think you need to factor in that Steff is borderline schizophrenic and cut him some slack

PS - I only said borderline because I suspect he is American and will sue me

:ross:

Wow, it's true! Reading this thread after the game has finished IS entertaining!

 

[the dza]

Have you not seen progress in our attacking play?

Not really (and I don't mean to be flippant). Going from AVB's first game to the present, I see the odd game where we put things together, but a huge bulk of games where we keep the ball pretty well, without really threatening to score until someone can ping one from 20 yards...and we pad our stats out with a fair few pot shots along the way. How many times do we score more than 2 goals in a league game under AVB? (Statto might help us out here!)

 

[Cochise]

Anyone remember the Everton away fixture last year? We looked so bad all game and Dempsey got that deflected goal. I sat through the entire game thinking "we don't deserve the win" and when they equalised, yes I was peeved but I felt justice had been done. If we lose, that's how I feel a lot these days, because we never look like the better team (apart from vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine). We win but I don't ever feel likes it's because we are the better team but because of individual talents/efforts like tonight. We defend like a team but we don't attack well. When we missed out on Champs League in Redknapps last season I was ready to pull my hair out because I felt our football showed that it deserved to be showcased against the best in Europe. Last season when we missed out I was apathetic because I knew all along that our football hadn't been of sufficient quality to make it to the top four.

 

[Gutter Boy]

And I will try to give you an answer in the same respectful way you asked the question. While no great admirer of the man himself, I thoroughly enjoyed the STYLE of football we played under Harry.It also got us great results - 4th, 5th, 4th and we had some wonderful times, even reaching the QF of the CL and beating both Milan clubs along the way.

I believe we were one good forward away from establishing ourselves as a CL side every year. If the board had backed him in either of the last two January windows of his tenure, then I firmly believe that we could have had both success AND style. I was not a great fan of his and thought he let us down badly in his final season, but he had the knack of getting some of our players to really deliver. A tactical genius - far from it, but I really enjoyed the style. It got me excited and I was entertained by it.

I do not know how you and others can be so certain that the AVB philosophy will deliver success in the long term. For me, that is a complete leap of faith with little substance to back it up and turgid football to be endured in the meantime until it all somehow miraculously comes together. I hope you are right about the success bit, but as I said earlier it is not a style of football I enjoy watching. And what if you are wrong? What if we have to endure this style WITHOUT any success? When will you consider the AVB experiment will have run its course?

Pochettino is the name everyone seems to want to replace AVB. But has anyone noticed how Southampton play almost exactly the same way as we do?

What is the alternative? Soft centre cavalier football? I love watching us go out and try and control matches - it's the first time we've done it in about 30 years.

 

[Cochise]

Pass, stand still, pass stand still etc etc. That is how we look when queuing up on the edge of the box. No one receiving whilst moving into the box, no quick darts in with the front man receiving and laying off for the arriving midfielder. We all stand still and pass from one side of the box to the next, until someone gets bored and hammers it goalwards. At least these last few games Lennon has played and started whipping in low balls for our players as opposed to everyone else who lofts a cross in towards our striker.

 

[Modric THFC]

Pochettino is the name everyone seems to want to replace AVB. But has anyone noticed how Southampton play almost exactly the same way as we do?

What is the alternative? Soft centre cavalier football? I love watching us go out and try and control matches - it's the first time we've done it in about 30 years.

Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Pirate55]

Have you not seen progress in our attacking play?

Personally I can see progress every week, I thought we looked good against Emirates Marketing Project despite the 6-0 loss, but I thought we certainly created chances and could have scored a few goals, the following week against United I thought we created good opportunities especially the Soldado chance and I think this week we created even more chances and looked good whenever we attacked Fulham, just finishing let us down, Defoe and Paulinho in particular.

You have got to be joking. We were DREADFUL against City. They could have easily had ten and we mustered half a chance.
We were better against a United side missing three of their best players and according to most reports I heard we were VERY fortunate against Fulham and relied heavily on Lloris.