*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Wolverhampton Wanderers ***

[DeanoAustin]

I’ve banged on about the full backs a lot but something else that’s struck me watching us recently is the difference in our first touch. Early on, I couldn’t believe how positive our lads were with their first touch and their intent to move the ball forward quickly in the first instance. Recently, it’s been a bit stodgy and pedestrian.

 

[DubSpur]

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I haven’t seen anyone say Ange ball won’t work, just that talk of beating Wolves 5-1 was fanciful at best. We’ve been scraping wins for the last few weeks, I posted after the Brighton game that Brighton were good value for a point and got slated as some only want to see the good things and take it personally when you say anything that’s not saying everything is great. I don’t think we played terrible yesterday, but Wolves were bang on it and tbf they always give us problems, even we we do beat them it’s never ever 5-1. The best we usually get is a 1-0 against them

There's lots saying Ange ball has been figured out and teams know how to set up to beat us. I wouldn't say we are even playing full Ange ball at this stage to even come to that conclusion. Every system has its flaws and counters. We're playing poorly, but that would be the case with any system due to the players and not the system.

 

[DubSpur]

There is merit in what you say about lads coming back from injury and tournaments and the team not being settled. And we do sometimes get caught in the trap of binary viewpoints like “Ange is gonna win us the league” or “Ange has been found out.”

But, for me, there are concerns with how we play and I’ve had them for months and it’s particularly around the usage of the full backs. We have been coughing up a lot of great chances and we haven’t been managing games very well when we have got a lead. Yes, against defensive teams, we are always susceptible to a counter but the usage of the full backs, IMO, makes us more susceptible than we should be.

It’s not the time to panic. It would have been a miracle if we didnt have these bumps and it’ll be a miracle if we don’t have some more. And it’ll be interesting to see how we play as some of the players get up to match fitness and settle back in.

We’re still very much on track for a good season and Ange has still managed to unite the club in a way I didn’t think was possible 12 months ago. But he is fair game for scrutiny.

I agree with the fbs being a concern and know you've been saying it for months. We've been getting caught with long diagonals to the wings.
But it's still a work in progress. I'm actually more concerned about being slow on the ball and giving away turnovers because players are taking an extra couple of touches. When we were at our best early in the season everything was fast. Now we are slow, inaccurate passing and allow teams to get set up defensively. That's down to players being off form and/or not match fit.

Also, agree that he's fair game for scrutiny. If he gets the praise he also has to accept the criticism.

 

[DubSpur]

I understand the rationale that Ange will want to play the same way to get the system drilled into the players. But, when the FBs at Royale and Davies you can't seriously expect them to replicate what Porro and Udogie do.

They are both decent FBs so if they have to play then play them there where they are comfortable and come up with another variant of Ange ball for attacks, expecting Davies and Royale to do bits in the same spaces Udogie and Porro do is asking for trouble....

Tweak it and let the FBs come in and act as CBs and the CBs push on. They are much better on the ball and it uses Davies and Royal at what they are best at. Davies and Royal haven't the pace to get back where VdV has. Or else play the likes of Kulu as a FB. Lots of options besides using Royal and Davies.

 

[harr1984]

I absolutely stand by what I said before the game, though I’ve never known a prediction to wind so many people up! The performances are coming. The players we have are too good and Ange is too good a coach. I fully believe his way of playing will deliver more wins than the previous 3 managers.

We’ve played half the season as plan B in terms of personnel. Anyone who says Ange’s hasn’t adapted or adjusted hasn’t been watching the same team as me. But this is how Ange works. He doesn’t tinker with things just to pick up a point here or there, he’s working on a system for the long term. See his other teams

- Brisbane Roar started poorly and were mocked for picking up the bloke who had an argument on TV with Craig Foster
- when he took over Australia we lost all 3 group games at the World Cup but he was playing a system to win the Asian Cup, which he did 6 months later
- Yokohama F Marinos were nearly relegated in his first season, won the league the next
- he had a really rough start at Celtic but went on to win the League

I don’t think you can really judge what he’s doing properly for another year.

I do agree with @DeanoAustin that our fullbacks playing as CMs exposes us. Gary O’Neill mentioned it too. But I also think it’s individual performances which is the biggest contributor. The forwards and midfielders are not doing their jobs at the moment. Get that working again, get us playing with pace; Maddison dictating things and our wingers creating overloads with the fullbacks again; get the press working again…then teams won’t have the chance to counter us, as we saw (or didn’t see) at the beginning of the season.

No one was wound up by your prediction, does questioning your rationale for winning 5-1 off the back of a good few average to poor performances equate to being wound up? As was proven by another pretty uninspiring performance it was right to ask the question.

We are all happy to play the long game with Ange, it's just that the honeymoon period is very much over and now is the difficult part. Teams are more prepared and as such Ange will have to find the solutions. I've no doubt he will eventually, and will continue to enjoy the ride as he has done well to unite the club considering what preceded him and to change the ethos towards attacking football in a relatively short space of time....

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It depends on your definition of 'found out' but he has been found out in terms of how teams can setup how to stifle us and counter us at ease, there is a blueprint for it now. That's no slant on Ange, it happens to every manager but the best coaches find a solution.

This has been an issue for a while against average opposition, which is why I found your bravado 5-1 prediction odd. Ange doesn't have a plan B, just throw on fresh legs in the hope that does it but we have been on thin ice for a while now so he really does have to think about this properly - I have no doubt he will find a way, but right now it is fair criticism to level at him and if he really is the top coach many believe he is then he will come up with the answers.

This is exactly why all this 'we can challenge for the title' talk at the early part of the season was utter gonads. We were having the same new manager bounce that most clubs get, and now we are reverting to mean which is about 5th/6th and that's absolutely fine - not many expected us to be bettering that when Ange was appointed and all in all it has been a good season to date....

I his defence (and as he has stated).... nearly all the top teams don't have a plan B. You just keep trying to do plan A better, whether that's better coaching, increased learning, or better players.

And I'm ok with that. At 7 months in ...why wouldn't you be?

 

[DubSpur]

I his defence (and has he has stated).... nearly all the top teams don't have a plan B. You just keep trying to do plan A better, whether that's better coaching, increased learning, or better players.

They tend to tweak the plan and Ange has done it on several occasions.

 

[harr1984]

I his defence (and has he has stated).... nearly all the top teams don't have a plan B. You just keep trying to do plan A better, whether that's better coaching, increased learning, or better players.

And I'm ok with that. At 7 months in ...why wouldn't you be?

Yes and like I said, it's up to Ange to find those solutions now?

It's not a given that he does come up with the answers, not every coach does. I think he will but we don't know. This is where we find out how good he really is, and as far I can see everyone on here is in support of the bigger picture/longer term project - I don't see any coming even close to wanting rid of him. Simply highlighting current issues that Ange is going to have to navigate to succeed....

 

[DeanoAustin]

I his defence (and has he has stated).... nearly all the top teams don't have a plan B. You just keep trying to do plan A better, whether that's better coaching, increased learning, or better players.

And I'm ok with that. At 7 months in ...why wouldn't you be?

You know what, you’re right. And I used the Plan B phrase yesterday. It really is about doing Plan A better or making it a better plan.

Ange said something really insightful a few weeks ago. There is no perfect football system. Every way of playing carries risk. I always say this to the coaches of my son’s team - everyone on the sideline always has the answers to what’s wrong because they’re not being asked the questions and that’s true of fans too.

I love attacking football, have since I was a kid watching some of the great Brazil and Spurs sides particularly. But I do think it has to be tempered with some defensive solidity and that, for me, is where Ange has the balance a bit off at the moment. So it’s not really that his plan has been figured out as if he needs to rip it up and throw it away but it does need tweaks.

And guess what, regardless of what he does, it still won’t be perfect. I think some fans, and I can relate to it because it was hard not to, started thinking in the back of their minds that Ange had unlocked some magic secret to winning football matches no matter how illogical that was. But, as he said yesterday, he’s a football manager, not a magician.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

You know what, you’re right. And I used the Plan B phrase yesterday. It really is about doing Plan A better or making it a better plan.

Ange said something really insightful a few weeks ago. There is no perfect football system. Every way of playing carries risk. I always say this to the coaches of my son’s team - everyone on the sideline always has the answers to what’s wrong because they’re not being asked the questions and that’s true of fans too.

I love attacking football, have since I was a kid watching some of the great Brazil and Spurs sides particularly. But I do think it has to be tempered with some defensive solidity and that, for me, is where Ange has the balance a bit off at the moment. So it’s not really that his plan has been figured out as if he needs to rip it up and throw it away but it does need tweaks.

And guess what, regardless of what he does, it still won’t be perfect. I think some fans, and I can relate to it because it was hard not to, started thinking in the back of their minds that Ange had unlocked some magic secret to winning football matches no matter how illogical that was. But, as he said yesterday, he’s a football manager, not a magician.

Great post.

Plus people should not forget he has carried his plan into the best league in the world.

Yes he'll probably be working with better players than he ever has. But, on the other side of the ball, openness or mistakes made in the J league or SPL you may get away with (as let's face it, scoring a goal is the hardest thing) BUT in this league are experts in punishing you. I'm not saying he doesn't realise this but sometimes first hand experience really drives it home.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'd agree with a lot of this but his 'really rough start' at Celtic was literally a draw and 2 losses.. After that it was all very solid.

That's a crisis at the old firm.

 

[glasgowspur]

Ange hasn't been found out, the players have had a disrupted few months and have lost some confidence and fluidity in either themselves, the system or both.
Where we were taking one touch and passing it has become two and three touches before a pass, runners don't make runs for that.
It will come again, hopefully soon.

 

[Yiddo]

This set up needs tricky wingers who are direct, Son and Kulu are not direct. One turns back on himself and passes backwards and the other holds onto it for too long. Neto showed what this system needs yesterday.

 

[Bullet]

Ange hasn't been found out, the players have had a disrupted few months and have lost some confidence and fluidity in either themselves, the system or both.
Where we were taking one touch and passing it has become two and three touches before a pass, runners don't make runs for that.
It will come again, hopefully soon.

Yes, Spurs players were playing safe yesterday, not daring to just ping a ball in first time or run diagonally across the box to drag defenders around. It was all 3 touch, sideways, ponderous. We needed to go bazball and see what happens, ping it around, chase after it, bounce it off a defender's backside and it falls into the path of a striker.

 

[spurspinter1]

The battering ram is on loan in Spain
You break down low blocks by moving them a little
You do that by passing with pace or shorting from range
Two things we have struggled or stopped doing for some reason

I know it's a bit triggering for some to hear even the briefest mention of Antonio, but many jumped on the "Conte told Son to stop shooting" bandwagon, has Ange continued that apparent tradition?

I'm trying to recall if Son has scored any from outside the box, it has always been in his locker but the old cut in from the left and bang one in from distance isn't something he seems to even try to do. I may have forgotten one but the majority of his goals were the standard sort of tap ins we are set for weren't they?

Porro aside have we had many long range screamers this season? This isn't meant as a criticism of Ange as I am well aware that just fudging leathering it from distance isn't going to be some brilliant nuanced solution to our drop in form (performances more than results wise, for now).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I know it's a bit triggering for some to hear even the briefest mention of Antonio, but many jumped on the "Conte told Son to stop shooting" bandwagon, has Ange continued that apparent tradition?

I'm trying to recall if Son has scored any from outside the box, it has always been in his locker but the old cut in from the left and bang one in from distance isn't something he seems to even try to do. I may have forgotten one but the majority of his goals were the standard sort of tap ins we are set for weren't they?

Porro aside have we had many long range screamers this season? This isn't meant as a criticism of Ange as I am well aware that just fudging leathering it from distance isn't going to be some brilliant nuanced solution to our drop in form (performances more than results wise, for now).

I don’t think we take those shots now
We had a few at Burnley away (Romero and son IIRC)
But Porto aside… that’s it
Everything seems to be focussed on getting it in the box to shoot an easier chance
But I’m with you in we have the players who can and do finish shots from range
And imo that works against low block sides
But it’s still work in progress of course and I think we will see lots more variation to come

 

[FolkestoneSpur]

I just thought it's worth mentioning what an oasis of sound reasoned debate it is on here, the rest of the internet is a fudging bin fire after yesterday's result. Some great posts in this thread

 

[Jurgen the German]

I absolutely stand by what I said before the game, though I’ve never known a prediction to wind so many people up! The performances are coming. The players we have are too good and Ange is too good a coach. I fully believe his way of playing will deliver more wins than the previous 3 managers.

We’ve played half the season as plan B in terms of personnel. Anyone who says Ange’s hasn’t adapted or adjusted hasn’t been watching the same team as me. But this is how Ange works. He doesn’t tinker with things just to pick up a point here or there, he’s working on a system for the long term. See his other teams

- Brisbane Roar started poorly and were mocked for picking up the bloke who had an argument on TV with Craig Foster
- when he took over Australia we lost all 3 group games at the World Cup but he was playing a system to win the Asian Cup, which he did 6 months later
- Yokohama F Marinos were nearly relegated in his first season, won the league the next
- he had a really rough start at Celtic but went on to win the League

I don’t think you can really judge what he’s doing properly for another year.

I do agree with @DeanoAustin that our fullbacks playing as CMs exposes us. Gary O’Neill mentioned it too. But I also think it’s individual performances which is the biggest contributor. The forwards and midfielders are not doing their jobs at the moment. Get that working again, get us playing with pace; Maddison dictating things and our wingers creating overloads with the fullbacks again; get the press working again…then teams won’t have the chance to counter us, as we saw (or didn’t see) at the beginning of the season.

Sorry you’re standing by saying we would win 5-1

I think it will take a while for everyone to get back up to speed given the injuries and internationals. More likely we will see the type close wins we’ve had recently than the Burnley/Saudi Sportswashing Machine wins earlier in the season. Next season I’d expect to see things go up a notch results and performance wise.

 

[glasgowspur]

I know it's a bit triggering for some to hear even the briefest mention of Antonio, but many jumped on the "Conte told Son to stop shooting" bandwagon, has Ange continued that apparent tradition?

I'm trying to recall if Son has scored any from outside the box, it has always been in his locker but the old cut in from the left and bang one in from distance isn't something he seems to even try to do. I may have forgotten one but the majority of his goals were the standard sort of tap ins we are set for weren't they?

Porro aside have we had many long range screamers this season? This isn't meant as a criticism of Ange as I am well aware that just fudging leathering it from distance isn't going to be some brilliant nuanced solution to our drop in form (performances more than results wise, for now).

Against Fulham at the end of October is last goal I can remember son scoring from that position.

 

[tommysvr]

Sorry you’re standing by saying we would win 5-1

I think it will take a while for everyone to get back up to speed given the injuries and internationals. More likely we will see the type close wins we’ve had recently than the Burnley/Saudi Sportswashing Machine wins earlier in the season. Next season I’d expect to see things go up a notch results and performance wise.

No, @harr1984 and I had more of a discussion about why I said a big performance is coming, and I stand by that. Why on earth would I stand by a score prediction after a match is finished? Why are you so caught up on 5-1? I’m really sorry I couldn’t guarantee that happening for you.