Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[Finney Is Back]

Thing is West Ham looked leggy to me. Most West Ham fans thought they themselves were poor on the day.

I would agree we do look more solid. No doubt about that. My concern is the transition to attack it’s poor. Slow and too many touches. I don’t see green shoots myself.

I think Nuno had sent us out not to lose the game. It looked like a nil-nil type gameplan (as I think we also had versus Palace).

 

[Finney Is Back]

But we’re having bumps now and people are complaining
We’re playing with more possession and people are complaining
Cowers…. Interesting choice or words. Arsenal away was exactly that and so similar to every game we have played there since we actually won there all those years ago (after a cowering first half)
Chelsea … we’ll at the time they were the best side in Europe and we got done by squad depth and tactical changes available to them due to that depth
Palace.. red card killed the game but it wasn’t vintage from us at all. We wouldn’t have lost that though with 10 men IMO
The previous 3 we won deservedly (the only game we had an xG below the team we beat was city but we 100% deserved the win)
And the recent 3 have been 2 very good wins and a game that IMO should have been a draw but lost because of a set piece. No cowering there from what I can see

We didn't play anything like the way we did against Arsenal earlier this season under Pochettino IMO.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Progressive is a misleading term IMO
I was the guy on here pushing potter to much derision. He is a progressive coach and a brilliant one IMO
But when gutter boy suggests a coach who didn’t seem to know we needed a massive defensive focus like fonseca (who im a fan of but clearly he hadn’t watch us play) then I have to interject.
We need someone to fix the issues and that starts from the back. We couldn’t defend for half a season. We look much better now on that front (the defence wasn’t the issue vs Chelsea or arsenal - it was the midfield not doing their job). The midfield now has a key player back in it, in skipp
He can now build from that which he has started with the change in formation. He needs to change a Player and see the impact, then try it again until he finds his team

I don't think you got much derision when pushing Potter to be honest mate.... My thoughts on Potter were that Levy was never going to employ him for the sake of his own optics.

Saying we need somebody 'to start from the back' is just a cliche. You don't need to start from the back at all. Working on the defence is fine but if you do so by sacrificing midfield creativity then you just have the same defensive problem all over again when you try to add the midfield creativity. The whole team has to work in a cohesive unit both when attacking and defending.

You blame the midfield against Chelsea and Arsenal. I think both losses were instead far more down to (lack of) tacital nous by the manager. The set up against Arsenal was ridiculous and suicidal. I think Chelsea would've beat us anyway as they are simply a lot better than us but their manager taking the proactive approach of swapping an attacker to bring on Kante so that they could outnumber us in the midfield and we could no longer use Dele and Ndombele to stop Chelsea getting the ball forward into good attacking positions by blocking the passing lanes from Jorginho and Kovacic was what won Chelsea that game. Our manager taking so long to spot this and do something about it meant the game was lost. Then again Chelsea have an elite level manager while we have an unremarkable one.

 

[Finney Is Back]

As I said the other day, shots taken means very little if you don’t score or hit the target
We’re 7th on shots on target which is a metric which highlights some elements of quality… any team can take shots
But I agree we need more creativity and we have had it for 2 games before we played a well organdie slow block (first time this season but an Achilles heel for years)
You then have to say do you need two DMs? I’d argue against anyone that wants to sit back you can sacrifice one and play Lo Celso at 10 (not in a midfield 3) and Tanguy in CM. If the full backs push up more like they have in the 4-2-3-1 formation we should have more width
We then would need to fix RW which is an issue
You could also play Lo Celso there and Tanguy in 10 but I’m not a fan of him playing RW
Hopefully Moura appalling game was a one off as they happen.

West Ham’s creativity is set pieces. It got them above us in the league…. Their most creative player is their left back

Not 'any team' can take shots it seems.... Us and Norwch for example.

Being 7th for shots on target might just indicate that we have some players of high quality? (i.e. that Kane and Son are good players and tend to hit good shots). XG is a far better indicator of how creative our team is than shots or shots on target.... After 6 games of the season our XG and XGA were very poor. I said I wasn't too concerned because it was so early in the season but would start to get concerned if the same was true after a dozen games and we should be able to get a very good idea after half a season. I'll be interested to see how our XG stats are looking in another 3 games time.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don’t think they (United and Leicester) are, they both have bad managers and unbalanced squads.

So they're just like us then! (but with the advantage of having better unbalanced squads).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We didn't play anything like the way we did against Arsenal earlier this season under Pochettino IMO.

Nope
But we still got spanked in games
I’ve never seen any team play like we did against arsenal but I’ve seen us lose a 2 nil lead cowering to use GBs words there plenty of times

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Not 'any team' can take shots it seems.... Us and Norwch for example.

Being 7th for shots on target might just indicate that we have some players of high quality? (i.e. that Kane and Son are good players and tend to hit good shots). XG is a far better indicator of how creative our team is than shots or shots on target.... After 6 games of the season our XG and XGA were very poor. I said I wasn't too concerned because it was so early in the season but would start to get concerned if the same was true after a dozen games and we should be able to get a very good idea after half a season. I'll be interested to see how our XG stats are looking in another 3 games time.

Sorry but we’re back to XG chowing creativity!!!
How? It’s literally a measure of a shots likelihood to go in
And the comments have been about shot quantity not quality or xG in the previous threads on it recently.. were taking the 19th leats shots just ahead of Norwich
But if your missing the target with your shots your not going to score regardless of xG. And I do agree with quality players you should hit the target more, hence why the better teams have a higher shot on target number. That’s why their better players.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think you got much derision when pushing Potter to be honest mate.... My thoughts on Potter were that Levy was never going to employ him for the sake of his own optics.

Saying we need somebody 'to start from the back' is just a cliche. You don't need to start from the back at all. Working on the defence is fine but if you do so by sacrificing midfield creativity then you just have the same defensive problem all over again when you try to add the midfield creativity. The whole team has to work in a cohesive unit both when attacking and defending.

You blame the midfield against Chelsea and Arsenal. I think both losses were instead far more down to (lack of) tacital nous by the manager. The set up against Arsenal was ridiculous and suicidal. I think Chelsea would've beat us anyway as they are simply a lot better than us but their manager taking the proactive approach of swapping an attacker to bring on Kante so that they could outnumber us in the midfield and we could no longer use Dele and Ndombele to stop Chelsea getting the ball forward into good attacking positions by blocking the passing lanes from Jorginho and Kovacic was what won Chelsea that game. Our manager taking so long to spot this and do something about it meant the game was lost. Then again Chelsea have an elite level manager while we have an unremarkable one.

Honestly… it was comedy when I started talking about him in the premier league thread… there was a lot of derision around his teams not being able to score and being just above or around where they were when Hughton left despite spending money

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sorry but we’re back to XG chowing creativity!!!
How? It’s literally a measure of a shots likelihood to go in
And the comments have been about shot quantity not quality or xG in the previous threads on it recently.. were taking the 19th leats shots just ahead of Norwich
But if your missing the target with your shots your not going to score regardless of xG. And I do agree with quality players you should hit the target more, hence why the better teams have a higher shot on target number. That’s why their better players.

*sigh*.... XG measures the quality of a chance based on historic statistics of similar chances. If you create good chances (i.e. putting players through one on one) then those chances will have a high XG. If you create low quality chances (i.e. pot shots from outside the area or high crosses into packed penalty areas then those chances will have a low XG)

Neither shot quantity, nor shots on target mean a thing really. We could hit 10 shots from 15 yards outside the box and get 5 of them on target in every game.... The likelihood is that we would score close to zero goals from these unless the keeper had a howler or there was a big, kind, deflection.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Honestly… it was comedy when I started talking about him in the premier league thread… there was a lot of derision around his teams not being able to score and being just above or around where they were when Hughton left despite spending money

His teams were around the same place as Hughton's teams after he had money to spend. I find it strange that you lament XG so much when the XG stats showed that Potter's Brighton should've been 5th last season. They were basially unlucky last season (hence underperforming compared to XG) I think every other team was within 3 league places of their XG prediction.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

*sigh*.... XG measures the quality of a chance based on historic statistics of similar chances. If you create good chances (i.e. putting players through one on one) then those chances will have a high XG. If you create low quality chances (i.e. pot shots from outside the area or high crosses into packed penalty areas then those chances will have a low XG)

Neither shot quantity not shots on target mean a thing really. We could hit 10 shots from 15 yards outside the box and get 5 of them on target in every game.... The likelihood is that we woudl score close to zero goals from these unless the keeper had a howler or there was a big, kind, deflection.

And again the talk was in this thread about shot quantity rather quality

 

[Bedfordspurs]

His teams were around the same place as Hughton's teams after he had money to spend. I find it strange that you lament XG so much when the XG stats showed that Potter's Brighton should've been 5th last season. They were basially unlucky last season (hence underperforming compared to XG) I think every other team was within 3 league places of their XG prediction.

I don’t lament xG it’s has some value, with some context. The issue is without other stats it means nothing
They had great xg, great xga and also great possession. Every measure was high

compare them with West Ham for example as their two extremes of play. West Ham don’t want the ball and enjoy the fight and physical side. They focus on their play without the ball abs the ability to launch fast counters
Brighton are methodical and controlled (they kept the ball off city again the other day with Llallana playing DM). They controlled the ball with a purpose though which is the key and they don’t rely on errors for their attacks (counter attacking comes from mistakes by default)
Two extreme of play but ones a progressive coach and ones not

 

[parklane1]

Sorry but we’re back to XG chowing creativity!!!
How? It’s literally a measure of a shots likelihood to go in
And the comments have been about shot quantity not quality or xG in the previous threads on it recently.. were taking the 19th leats shots just ahead of Norwich
But if your missing the target with your shots your not going to score regardless of xG. And I do agree with quality players you should hit the target more, hence why the better teams have a higher shot on target number. That’s why their better players.

You should know better then to get into a discussion with those who worship at the feet of XG, its one of the saddest/ most useless stats in the game. People get so blinded by it they are convinced that is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You should know better then to get into a discussion with those who worship at the feet of XG, its one of the saddest/ most useless stats in the game. People get so blinded by it they are convinced that is the best thing since sliced bread.

I know you poo poo it as it is a bit modern and technical for you Statlover but it does give a reasonable prediction of how things should end up (especially over a very long term).

If you take a look at last seasons XG table it had the top 4 as:
Emirates Marketing Project
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man Utd

and the bottom 3 as:

Palace
West Brom
Sheffield United

Of course there are always statistical anomalies (teams who get lucky/unlucky or perhaps have an incredibly good keeper or striker) but overall it provides a good indication of whether teams are typically creating good chances in games or having good chances created against them in games.

So far this season we are the 13th best team in terms of (not) giving up high quality chances against us and the 18th best team at creating high quality chances.

Interestingly enough if you look at the bottom 10 for creating high quality chances it is: Norwich, Watford, Burnley, Aston Villa, Brighton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Crystal Palace, Leeds and Southampton. Of course we are only 9 games in so quality of opposition played hasn't evened out yet across the league, but would you agree or disagree that those other teams I mentioned are likely to be the bottom half of teams for chance creation in the PL?

As I said before if we're still down towards the bottom of the XG stats after half a season then we probably should be concerned.

 

[parklane1]

I know you poo poo it as it is a bit modern and technical for you Statlover but it does give a reasonable prediction of how things should end up (especially over a very long term).

If you take a look at last seasons XG table it had the top 4 as:
Emirates Marketing Project
Liverpool
Chelsea
Man Utd

and the bottom 3 as:

Palace
West Brom
Sheffield United

Of course there are always statistical anomalies (teams who get lucky/unlucky or perhaps have an incredibly good keeper or striker) but overall it provides a good indication of whether teams are typically creating good chances in games or having good chances created against them in games.

So far this season we are the 13th best team in terms of (not) giving up high quality chances against us and the 18th best team at creating high quality chances.

Interestingly enough if you look at the bottom 10 for creating high quality chances it is: Norwich, Watford, Burnley, Aston Villa, Brighton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Crystal Palace, Leeds and Southampton. Of course we are only 9 games in so quality of opposition played hasn't evened out yet across the league, but would you agree or disagree that those other teams I mentioned are likely to be the bottom half of teams for chance creation in the PL?

As I said before if we're still down towards the bottom of the XG stats after half a season then we probably should be concerned.

Nothing to do with modern and technical mate but if it makes you feel better then insult away ( what is that old saying? little things amuse little minds). The truth is i have worked in coaching for most of my life and dealt with stats on a daily basis ( including the overated and hyped XG ones). As i have said before stats HAVE there use in football but they are not the bible that some try and make them out to be and in a lot of cases can BLIND folks into false beliefs.

But you are a grown man so go for it if it makes you happy.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nothing to do with modern and technical mate but if it makes you feel better then insult away ( what is that old saying? little things amuse little minds). The truth is i have worked in coaching for most of my life and dealt with stats on a daily basis ( including the overated and hyped XG ones). As i have said before stats HAVE there use in football but they are not the bible that some try and make them out to be and in a lot of cases can BLIND folks into false beliefs.

But you are a grown man so go for it if it makes you happy.

That's great, good on you. Which badges did you do by the way and where did you do them? Did you go all the way up to the UEFA A and then Pro badges?

I notice that you avoided answering my question in the second last sentence of my post. Any comment?

 

[parklane1]

That's great, good on you. Which badges did you do by the way and where did you do them? Did you go all the way up to the UEFA A and then Pro badges?

I notice that you avoided answering my question in the second last sentence of my post. Any comment?

FA Level 3 (UEFA B), i did not go any further because i decided to to stay in youth coaching rather then the mens game. Did most of my badges at Carrow road but also at St Georges and back in the day Lilleshawe.

 

[Finney Is Back]

FA Level 3 (UEFA B), i did not go any further because i decided to to stay in youth coaching rather then the mens game. Did most of my badges at Carrow road but also at St Georges and back in the day Lilleshawe.

Similar to me. I only did mine as I started to get involved a little bit when my sons were playing football and decided I didn't want to be the typical Sunday league football coach who had no real idea about the game. I ended up doing most of mine at Notts Forest as I had some good connections there through some of their former players. I thought about continuing with the badges but just couldn't put the time in with my work commitments.

What about my other question?.... "Would you agree or disagree that those other teams I mentioned are likely to be the bottom half of teams for chance creation in the PL?"

 

[NaijaSpurs]

SO he picked 5 defenders on the bench, the sooner he is out of this club the better, 5 fecking defenders

 

[Gutter Boy]

SO he picked 5 defenders on the bench, the sooner he is out of this club the better, 5 fecking defenders

To be fair, we do have 6 FBs in the squad and 1 CF