No Spurs v West Brom omt yet? Can this be it?

[Mikey10]

Ive read plenty of the posts made in the last 24hrs mate and it's typical toys out of the pram after a dissapointing result stuff for the most part from what i have seen - once the dust has settled you'll get get more reasoned debate from both sides.

Don't confuse calling the manager in to question with having a serious debate, especially when logic has long since left the room

You prove my point. Because I don’t agree with your argument I’m not logical?

As I say, it’s all become a bit Scouse cult. Time for a break from here, I think.

Fingers crossed for Wednesday and Sunday.

 

[billyiddo]

You prove my point. Because I don’t agree with your argument I’m not logical?

It was in reference to the general "We're doomed to always fudge up/never win crunch games" theme of the past 24 hrs rather than specifically at yourself - i thought it that was clear as we were speaking in general terms here?

 

[harr1984]

It's a message board with many different users and no opinion is going to be agreed upon across the board - unless you're arrogant enough to think your opinion is fact i don't see how you can come to that conclusion.

Simple - I’m not talking about whether an opinion is right or wrong. I’m saying if you make a criticism of Poch your post is then twisted into something you haven’t said. You post criticising Pochs tactics, guess what’s coming - People coming back at you making out like you want him sacked. There are several examples spread out over the months on here. And this is coming from someone that loves the guy. It’s so weird, you can literally criticise anyone else on here but not Poch. Although is does seem like that stance is softening a little of late...

 

[billyiddo]

Simple - I’m not talking about whether an opinion is right or wrong. I’m saying if you make a criticism of Poch your post is then twisted into something you haven’t said. You post criticising Pochs tactics, guess what’s coming - People coming back at you making out like you want him sacked. There are several examples spread out over the months on here. And this is coming from someone that loves the guy. It’s so weird, you can literally criticise anyone else on here but not Poch. Although is does seem like that stance is softening a little of late...

Personally i just see people pulling apart and questioning posts/opinions they don't agree with - i see people do that with your posts, I've seen you do that with others, I've seen people do that with Mikey10s posts these past 24hrs and so on.

Best not to be so think skinned about it all

 

[harr1984]

Personally i just see people pulling apart and questioning posts/opinions they don't agree with - i see people do that with your posts, I've seen you do that with others, I've seen people do that with Mikey10s posts these past 24hrs and so on.

Best not to be so think skinned about it all

Honestly when it comes to debating Poch things are very different on here and it stems a lot further back than this last poor couple of weeks. But if you don’t see that fair enough, I have no other complaints on this forum...

 

[billyiddo]

Honestly when it comes to debating Poch things are very different on here and it stems a lot further back than this last poor couple of weeks. But if you don’t see that fair enough, I have no other complaints on this forum...

Surely you can see that there has been some OTT criticism thrown the managers way these past few weeks and that it is that which people are railing against?

When posters have put forward well reasoned/well thought out criticism they have by and large recieved well thought out reasoned responses

 

[alekaras]

My comments weren’t just about yesterday’s game though - without getting into it all too much again, for me it was another really important game (we could have basically sealed CL football for the first season in our new stadium) which fits into a PATTERN of other really key games that we have lost under Poch. When it comes to those key moments the evidence presently is that his team simply doesn’t deliver.

Anyhow, he’s got two chances to show that he can this week and I sincerely hope that he does.

One of the criticisms hurled at Poch is his late subs, so let's take that as an example. A lot of the critics on this board are clamoring for earlier subs, but the only way to really determine whether those would make a difference is to make early subs in half the games and late subs in the other half and see how results pan out(and even then it wouldn't be conclusive, because each game is different).

The point here is that, just because things don't work out the way Poch currently approaches games, it doesn't mean that an alternative approach would work better. It might actually work far worse. So, personally, because I cannot prove that an alternative approach would work better, I refrain from criticizing. And unless people can predict what might have happened, then they would be fools to criticize and assume they know better.

 

[harr1984]

Surely you can see that there has been some OTT criticism thrown the managers way these past few weeks and that it is that which people are railing against?

When posters have put forward well reasoned/well thought out criticism they have by and large recieved well thought out reasoned responses

In some instances you are right, but I’ve seen it happen to me and others where there has been nothing outrageous said against Poch just a standard criticism that is at the very least valid and fair being twisted into us being lectured about what Poch has done for us and how we need to appreciate what he’s done instantly moving away from what the discussion was about. After the West Brom game you got a load of posters ranting about how ‘can’t believe people are discussing getting rid of Poch’ Like literally that wasn’t the discussion at all, one poster mentioned a couple of other coaches that he felt would do better and that was about it. It’s just weird in here when it comes to Poch, a lot get overly sensitive if someone criticises him and appears in some quarters he’s immune from criticism....

 

[billyiddo]

In some instances you are right, but I’ve seen it happen to me and others where there has been nothing outrageous said against Poch just a standard criticism that is at the very least valid and fair being twisted into us being lectured about what Poch has done for us and how we need to appreciate what he’s done instantly moving away from what the discussion was about. After the West Brom game you got a load of posters ranting about how ‘can’t believe people are discussing getting rid of Poch’ Like literally that wasn’t the discussion at all, one poster mentioned a couple of other coaches that he felt would do better and that was about it. It’s just weird in here when it comes to Poch, a lot get overly sensitive if someone criticises him and appears in some quarters he’s immune from criticism....

I think you're far too defensive on this subject mate, which is kind of ironic considering the angle you are coming from that this is like a Liverpool board...when there are posts saying the manager can't take us any further/has hit a cieling and discussing who could do better job then you (not specifically) may as well be talking about sacking/replacing him - that's just the logical conclusion people will draw from those kinds of posts, why would anyone want to stick with a manager who isn't going to improve on a position where we aren't winning anything afterall? Maybe you/others should look at your own posting style if you think so many are misinterpreting your position...

Posting about other people peoples posting style is a bit too much for me these days tbh so im going to try and leave it there.

 

[harr1984]

I think you're far too defensive on this subject mate, which is kind of ironic considering the angle you are coming from that this is like a Liverpool board...when there are posts saying the manager can't take us any further/has hit a cieling and discussing who could do better job then you (not specifically) may as well be talking about sacking/replacing him - that's just the logical conclusion people will draw from those kinds of posts, why would anyone want to stick with a manager who isn't going to improve on a position where we aren't winning anything afterall? Maybe you/others should look at your own posting style if you think so many are misinterpreting your position...

Posting about other people peoples posting style is a bit too much for me these days tbh so im going to try and leave it there.

I’m not being defensive at all, and it’s not something that I’m just experiencing it’s others too and it’s always to do with Poch - it’s not happening with any of our players etc so it has nothing to do about posting styles. As for discussing whether we’ve hit our ceiling that doesn’t have to mean sacking our manager, just accepting this is as good as it can get because we aren’t going to attract a better manager or the worlds best players - but it’s all just a discussion. That doesn’t equate to putting words in posters mouths and deciding anyone who wants to criticise him wants him gone. You’re right though, this one is probably best left here...:

 

[billyiddo]

Mate it's a well trodden path that any discussion with criticism of an individual takes - it's not unique to Pochettino by any stretch.

 

[harr1984]

Mate it's a well trodden path that any discussion with criticism of an individual takes - it's not unique to Pochettino by any stretch.

I agree to an extent but I don’t see the same scenarios happening as they do with Poch. Anyways, there’s too much sun out there for us to be concerning ourselves with this right now - let’s save our energy for something more productive....

 

[elltrev]

There's three counter-arguments to this viewpoint, however.

The first is that we as fans provide the institutional memory that permeates the club - it's a feedback loop that stems from the stands, is amplified by the media and is then conveyed to the ears of the folks at the club. It matters - it's probably one of the only voices any fans in England have left in the running of their club, since any real input or power was taken away from them a long time ago.

So, that is definitely a way by which the current lot are infused with the memories of our past. Now, you might say that this necessitates the fans *forgetting* the past in order to get the players to do so as well, but that goes into the age-old question of whether the players need to inspire the fans to believe or the other way around. There's no easy answer to that. But, either way, there is a definite mechanism by which players learn the history of our club, and by doing so adopt its baggage.

The second is that ,even if the players are unaware of our baggage, our opponents definitely are. I can't put it any better than Chiellini did after Juve professionally, carelessly dispatched us with one burst of action. Quoting from the Guardian...



Our opponents *know* we tend to bottle it. They *know* that if they just keep us quiet, our mental demons will start emerging more and more as the game wears on. So it doesn't matter if our players are unaware - our opponents are aware, and they will use it to outdo us.

The third is that the same performances and the same choking in inopportune moments is still present - regardless of the changes in personnel, this team can (and does) still choke at the death when things are on the line. It happens less often, and that is tribute to how heroically Poch has tried to rebuild us....but in the end, we are still making the mistakes we made with different teams, in different eras, many years ago. Not as many, definitely. But they're still there. So surely the team is still afflicted by it, regardless of how we perceive it as fans.

Ultimately, we've been there as fans and we've seen these things happen far too often. But we're not the only ones seeing these things happen. Our opponents have seen them happen. The football world has seen them happen. And this will filter through to whichever sets of players we have, I think - one way or another.

Genuine question - what would had to have happened this season for you to think that we weren't being affected by this negative mindset / history?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Has been noticeable for a while on here that if you question anything Poch does you get shouted down on here regardless of whether it’s a valid criticism or not - it will be portrayed that you’ve just said he’s rubbish and should be fired immediately....

I dont think thats quite the case, and I would definitely be in the cult of Poch camp if you want to divide on those sort of lines.

For me, for the most part, criticism falls into two parts.

1) Utter turd. And there are a few that bang on with such, which is boring to say the least.
2) Fair critique, to be fair, but usually a more minor thing being blown out of proportion as the be-all end-all. Which, again, really does deserve a fairly sharp rebuttal.

After this there are the rare, more reasoned complaints, which I personally have no issue with.

My general response is to take a measure of where we were, and where we are, and try to hold a bit of perspective.

Even with completely valid complaints, in the grand scheme what do we have to really bitch and moan about? Which is most often how these complaints are presented, whining, bitching and moaning - which makes the Scouse like accusations somewhat ironic...

 

[harr1984]

I dont think thats quite the case, and I would definitely be in the cult of Poch camp if you want to divide on those sort of lines.

For me, for the most part, criticism falls into two parts.

1) Utter turd. And there are a few that bang on with such, which is boring to say the least.
2) Fair critique, to be fair, but usually a more minor thing being blown out of proportion as the be-all end-all. Which, again, really does deserve a fairly sharp rebuttal.

After this there are the rare, more reasoned complaints, which I personally have no issue with.

My general response is to take a measure of where we were, and where we are, and try to hold a bit of perspective.

Even with completely valid complaints, in the grand scheme what do we have to really bitch and moan about? Which is most often how these complaints are presented, whining, bitching and moaning - which makes the Scouse like accusations somewhat ironic...

I dont disagree with much of what you say but it digresses a little from my point. There are some posts that specifically criticise something about Poch - and their posts get twisted and people jump on that poster with 'Cant believe some want to get rid of Poch' etc etc I dont know whether they're just not reading the posts properly or what, but it makes it appear as if some are overly touchy about any negative criticism towards him. Like I said it doesnt happen with any of the player threads, just Poch himself. I really would rather not get back into this though, we all know who thinks what on this....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I dont disagree with much of what you say but it digresses a little from my point. There are some posts that specifically criticise something about Poch - and their posts get twisted and people jump on that poster with 'Cant believe some want to get rid of Poch' etc etc I dont know whether they're just not reading the posts properly or what, but it makes it appear as if some are overly touchy about any negative criticism towards him. Like I said it doesnt happen with any of the player threads, just Poch himself. I really would rather not get back into this though, we all know who thinks what on this....

You seem really quite sensitive to this, Im not sure I see it as much to be hoenst.

Have a look at what you put:

After the West Brom game you got a load of posters ranting about how ‘can’t believe people are discussing getting rid of Poch’ Like literally that wasn’t the discussion at all, one poster mentioned a couple of other coaches that he felt would do better and that was about it

Seems to me like a very obvious deduction. If I started talking about coaches that could do a better job, that would infer Id replace him, which opens the conversation to getting rid of him. Doesnt strike me as a leap out of left-field...

My sensitivity kicks in when I feel people are getting ahead of themselves. Im still acutely aware of just how far back from here we were when he started, and then even further back prior to that. When it seems like people take it for granted I get tinkled off, I cant lie.

Though I tend to steer clear of this place when I know its coming!

Havent been on since Friday, after WBA I knew what it would be like. Skimming the threads Im glad I didnt get involved!

 

[harr1984]

You seem really quite sensitive to this, Im not sure I see it as much to be hoenst.

Have a look at what you put:

After the West Brom game you got a load of posters ranting about how ‘can’t believe people are discussing getting rid of Poch’ Like literally that wasn’t the discussion at all, one poster mentioned a couple of other coaches that he felt would do better and that was about it

Seems to me like a very obvious deduction. If I started talking about coaches that could do a better job, that would infer Id replace him, which opens the conversation to getting rid of him. Doesnt strike me as a leap out of left-field...

My sensitivity kicks in when I feel people are getting ahead of themselves. Im still acutely aware of just how far back from here we were when he started, and then even further back prior to that. When it seems like people take it for granted I get tinkled off, I cant lie.

Though I tend to steer clear of this place when I know its coming!

Havent been on since Friday, after WBA I knew what it would be like. Skimming the threads Im glad I didnt get involved!

I’m not sensitive to it really, I wasn’t even going to bring it up - another poster mentioned it the other day and I agreed with it. Billyiddo wanted to respond back and so there was a little discussion and now you’ve added your thoughts a day later - if someone chooses to respond to a post of mine I’ll reply, it’s not like I’m hung up on the issue. Also you’re quoting something purely from After WBA game - my point dates back way further than this cluster of poor performances and I could show you specific examples of how posting something negative about Poch gets twisted into you not appreciating him, followed by a nice long lecture about what he’s done for the club but I don’t want to get into that really. The ironic thing is Poch is probably more critical of himself than anyone on here. Perhaps in future any posters wanting to criticise anything Poch has done should start their post with ‘ I really love Poch but...’ then there won’t be any confusion....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ha! Well fair enough then. Little point labouring it.

 

[billyiddo]

Regarding the player/manager angle you brought up previously... a manager has many more facets to critique than a player does... with a player it usually goes as far as did he play well or is he any use to us, usually pretty clear cut but sometimes a bit of a grey area - with a manager, any manager, there are naturally far more talking points which are probably less clear cut, especially when by there nature managers actions are far more complex. On a messageboard you're never going to find something everyone agrees on and i think if you were to look at the things Poch gets criticised for, regardless of which side you come at it from, you'd be hard pushed to say any one argument is any more than just an opinion - there's no clear cut argument that people are ignoring or refusing to acknowledge, it's far more nuanced than that.

 

[Pirate55]

I’m not being defensive at all, and it’s not something that I’m just experiencing it’s others too and it’s always to do with Poch - it’s not happening with any of our players etc so it has nothing to do about posting styles. As for discussing whether we’ve hit our ceiling that doesn’t have to mean sacking our manager, just accepting this is as good as it can get because we aren’t going to attract a better manager or the worlds best players - but it’s all just a discussion. That doesn’t equate to putting words in posters mouths and deciding anyone who wants to criticise him wants him gone. You’re right though, this one is probably best left here...:

I agree with everything you have said in this thread. Some just won't (or can't) accept it.

But the bigger question is why is this OMT still running when the latest OMT is up ?