Micky van de Ven

[thfcsteff]

It's a good shout. When Kane got 30 goals, we conceded over 60 in the PL. Kane was equally culpable for that abysmal goals against column such was the little impact he had defending from the top. Then we had 2 injury ravaged Ange seasons and conceded over 60 goals both times. This time though, the team was setup to have 10 outfield players working hard until they drop. Then Frank arrived and I was hoping that he would have more clue about faucets when it comes to football because ours clearly leaks. However, a community of Spurs fans are never gonna behold a better defensive record. If that happens they will moan about it not being the Spurs way. Now we're seeing the faucet leaking again under Frank and I think that is reason to panic a little. That wasn't in the script right?

Nope.
In 2016/17, we had a manager who was putting out a side which were wonderful to watch and only conceded 26 goals in 38 league games. The season before was 35.
It can be done and done repeatedly.

A good start in this current set-up, IMO, would be to play the CBs higher up the pitch in order to take better advantage of their top skill-sets. Combined with the fact we no longer invert and push FBs in the way we did under Frank's predecessor, I think we'd stand a better chance of creating and also preventing more.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Personally I struggle to remember the last time we were solid in defence.

Probably when Dier ran off to the loo at halftime?

 

[harr1984]

It's a good shout. When Kane got 30 goals, we conceded over 60 in the PL. Kane was equally culpable for that abysmal goals against column such was the little impact he had defending from the top. Then we had 2 injury ravaged Ange seasons and conceded over 60 goals both times. This time though, the team was setup to have 10 outfield players working hard until they drop. Then Frank arrived and I was hoping that he would have more clue about faucets when it comes to football because ours clearly leaks. However, a community of Spurs fans are never gonna behold a better defensive record. If that happens they will moan about it not being the Spurs way. Now we're seeing the faucet leaking again under Frank and I think that is reason to panic a little. That wasn't in the script right?

Oh Muttley, you never fail to find a way to get your criticism of Kane into a thread do you ....

 

[Bullet]

Kane was equally culpable for that abysmal ..... we're seeing the faucet leaking again

Tell me you're American without telling me you're American

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Nope.
In 2016/17, we had a manager who was putting out a side which were wonderful to watch and only conceded 26 goals in 38 league games. The season before was 35.
It can be done and done repeatedly.

A good start in this current set-up, IMO, would be to play the CBs higher up the pitch in order to take better advantage of their top skill-sets. Combined with the fact we no longer invert and push FBs in the way we did under Frank's predecessor, I think we'd stand a better chance of creating and also preventing more.

With the current squad members we have to select from I've been thinking that the old Poch 4231 when Dier was CM but with the instruction to drop between the CHs (Jan and toby,) that pushed them wider and the FBs up might just be a perfect system for TF.

It may require us to buy a player to play that Dier roll or I think probably Gray or Bentancur could easily fulfil the requirements (it's not that specialized tbh).

It allows Udogie and Porro to push forward but with support and cover.
Gives Romero a better angle to deliver his midfield cutting passes and reduces the risk of him going ball hunting. It also allows VDV to go on his 'Man United away' type runs.

Posted this back in July (before Paulinha arrived who'd be another option)... but no-one replied.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

And I think Micky’s interview gives some interesting additional clues. If Ange’s entire reason for being at Spurs, entire way he motivated his players, and convinced them to join the club was ‘we are going to play the football you’ve always dreamed of, and I’m going to trust you to be brave to play it, always’ then you can understand why he wouldn’t suddenly want to become Mr. Pragmatic to salvage a league season that was meaningless anyway. So one hypothesis is, he was fine adapting in the Europa to win something, not fine to throw out the philosophy completely when he’d want to get back to building that ideal state next season.

A strong trait Ange always displayed was he was an old football romantic. He loved the game, and the best parts of it. (And part of me, loved that about him).
The trouble is, if you lean into that too much, the modern game at this level will ultimately crush you.
You're very unlikely to buy all the top players required for the small chance you'll get it to work, or a stellar group of youth all rolling out of the academy in one hit.

The change of approach, on his part, was probably a calculation (I'd have to guess, with the agreement with DL) that the league was safe, and looking at this quality of the EL teams, in conjunction with the players we had lining up to return, we had a BIG chance of going all the way.
But he also got the clearest path to hit his home run in the football romantics arena by getting his mic drop moment with the 'win things in my second season' quote.
(Very Keegan, Clough etc)

He did, let's be clear, fudged the league off, probably lost his job because of it, but in some ways I don't think he cares, he had his moment, and that moment suited his football romanticism superbly.
He won much more for himself than anyone else.

Fwiw, the irony there was nothing clever or romantic about the way we played in the EL (his dad would have hated it)....we just ran our nuts off, defended like tigers, and hopefully if we kept the score to zero, just needed one chance. All helped by being able pick the freshest of fresh players when naming the team.

 

[glasgowspur]

A strong trait Ange always displayed was he was an old football romantic. He loved the game, and the best parts of it. (And part of me, loved that about him).
The trouble is, if you lean into that too much, the modern game at this level will ultimately crush you.
You're very unlikely to buy all the top players required for the small chance you'll get it to work, or a stellar group of youth all rolling out of the academy in one hit.

The change of approach, on his part, was probably a calculation (I'd have to guess, with the agreement with DL) that the league was safe, and looking at this quality of the EL teams, in conjunction with the players we had lining up to return, we had a BIG chance of going all the way.
But he also got the clearest path to hit his home run in the football romantics arena by getting his mic drop moment with the 'win things in my second season' quote.
(Very Keegan, Clough etc)

He did, let's be clear, fudged the league off, probably lost his job because of it, but in some ways I don't think he cares, he had his moment, and that moment suited his football romanticism superbly.
He won much more for himself than anyone else.

Fwiw, the irony there was nothing clever or romantic about the way we played in the EL (his dad would have hated it)....we just ran our nuts off, defended like tigers, and hopefully if we kept the score to zero, just needed one chance. All helped by being able pick the freshest of fresh players when naming the team.

Not sure about his dad hating it, there's a lot of romantic stuff written about the great Liverpool sides, they were great winners, but it was hardly free flowing attacking football full of skill and panache.

 

[thfcsteff]

Posted this back in July (before Paulinha arrived who'd be another option)... but no-one replied.

Reposting the entry here and responding within it mate...


With the current squad members we have to select from I've been thinking that the old Poch 4231 when Dier was CM but with the instruction to drop between the CHs (Jan and toby,) that pushed them wider and the FBs up might just be a perfect system for TF.

It may require us to buy a player to play that Dier roll or I think probably Gray or Bentancur could easily fulfil the requirements (it's not that specialized tbh).

I think Gray would be an exceptional candidate for this deployment. I do also think in Palhinha we have a player who is made for such a role, yet we don't use him that way. For me, Palinha's huge strength was always that he is a player who allows others to be more themselves knowing he can cover. To your point, if the FBs push on conventionally (as in overlapping) it allows the likes of Kudus to use the channels more AND in transitions, Pahlinha drops in the middle to form a 3 until conventional shape is regained. It feels so blindingly simple on paper.

It allows Udogie and Porro to push forward but with support and cover.
Gives Romero a better angle to deliver his midfield cutting passes and reduces the risk of him going ball hunting. It also allows VDV to go on his 'Man United away' type runs.

All of that. Again, it feels like we have the solutions in the side already. So yes, in agreement!

 

[thfcsteff]

A strong trait Ange always displayed was he was an old football romantic. He loved the game, and the best parts of it. (And part of me, loved that about him).
The trouble is, if you lean into that too much, the modern game at this level will ultimately crush you.
You're very unlikely to buy all the top players required for the small chance you'll get it to work, or a stellar group of youth all rolling out of the academy in one hit.

The change of approach, on his part, was probably a calculation (I'd have to guess, with the agreement with DL) that the league was safe, and looking at this quality of the EL teams, in conjunction with the players we had lining up to return, we had a BIG chance of going all the way.
But he also got the clearest path to hit his home run in the football romantics arena by getting his mic drop moment with the 'win things in my second season' quote.
(Very Keegan, Clough etc)

He did, let's be clear, fudged the league off, probably lost his job because of it, but in some ways I don't think he cares, he had his moment, and that moment suited his football romanticism superbly.
He won much more for himself than anyone else.

Fwiw, the irony there was nothing clever or romantic about the way we played in the EL (his dad would have hated it)....we just ran our nuts off, defended like tigers, and hopefully if we kept the score to zero, just needed one chance. All helped by being able pick the freshest of fresh players when naming the team.

All true.

What I would add is that the sheer magic of that journey -including the horrendously ugly bits- galvanizes players and staff alike. I will always wonder whether the blend of his style and resolution alongside the players total buy-in alongside their suggestions on modification to achieve an end alongside the net result of a trophy might've seen a new approach this season where Ange's style was paramount AND if ahead at certain stages of a game, the players would get license to shut the game down. We'll never know.

 

[Lemonade Money]

We'll never know.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[thfcsteff]

Rinse and repeat.

"...change the culture..."

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

A strong trait Ange always displayed was he was an old football romantic. He loved the game, and the best parts of it. (And part of me, loved that about him).
The trouble is, if you lean into that too much, the modern game at this level will ultimately crush you.
You're very unlikely to buy all the top players required for the small chance you'll get it to work, or a stellar group of youth all rolling out of the academy in one hit.

The change of approach, on his part, was probably a calculation (I'd have to guess, with the agreement with DL) that the league was safe, and looking at this quality of the EL teams, in conjunction with the players we had lining up to return, we had a BIG chance of going all the way.
But he also got the clearest path to hit his home run in the football romantics arena by getting his mic drop moment with the 'win things in my second season' quote.
(Very Keegan, Clough etc)

He did, let's be clear, fudged the league off, probably lost his job because of it, but in some ways I don't think he cares, he had his moment, and that moment suited his football romanticism superbly.
He won much more for himself than anyone else.

Fwiw, the irony there was nothing clever or romantic about the way we played in the EL (his dad would have hated it)....we just ran our nuts off, defended like tigers, and hopefully if we kept the score to zero, just needed one chance. All helped by being able pick the freshest of fresh players when naming the team.

I do agree that he was never going to get the very best players. I think I’d just have been interested to see how it all shook out if he had a deep enough squad, with enough of the players he really needs. Like actual one v one wingers. An actual rotation option for VDV.

He had the best team in the league at Celtic, but did he have the best team relative to the league in Australia or Japan? Genuine question because I don’t know. I understood that he made bets on very specific types of players (in the sense that VDV is also a specific type of defender to enable him to do something quite outlandish) and that’s what enables him to win. He had a clear idea, he got specific pieces (not necessarily the best) and then had the charisma and leadership to instill belief to play that kind of football.

So that’s what I’d have been curious of. Not that he would have gotten the best pieces, but can he get enough specific pieces to carry out his style, and enough depth to not be completely blown off course. He won a trophy anyway, but I’d say being comfortable with a Bissouma over a Hoijberg is an example of making a bet on a specific type of player, not necessarily the best player, because it suited what he wanted. I think if we could have gotten there in the winger positions and with a Micky rotation, we’d have been doing quite well and having a lot of fun. I genuinely think the Odobert and Moore injuries / virus screwed him a lot last year because Son was losing a step at the elite level and it’s not really Johnson or Kulusevski’s game on the right.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Not sure about his dad hating it, there's a lot of romantic stuff written about the great Liverpool sides, they were great winners, but it was hardly free flowing attacking football full of skill and panache.

I'm just talking about the specific relationship they had.
Ange is totally the way he is because of his dad. Pragmatic, defence first football would not be acceptable to him (his dad). He's said many times...he was always seeking his dad's approval.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

All true.

What I would add is that the sheer magic of that journey -including the horrendously ugly bits- galvanizes players and staff alike. I will always wonder whether the blend of his style and resolution alongside the players total buy-in alongside their suggestions on modification to achieve an end alongside the net result of a trophy might've seen a new approach this season where Ange's style was paramount AND if ahead at certain stages of a game, the players would get license to shut the game down. We'll never know.

You propose something that from the outside looks feasible, possible and simply sensible given what went in.

I just think Ange was stubborn. And don't take that as a negative, I think you might just have to be that at the very top as it takes an almighty belief and courage to push on and up.

I simply think that Anges way will never make it at this level. It's too flawed, and not just tactically. The romantiscm gets in the way as well, you can't hate the dark arts for example.

Ps. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if he could make it work at City...where he could get all the players he wanted and some stars from their academy

 

[thfcsteff]

You propose something that from the outside looks feasible, possible and simply sensible given what went in.

I just think Ange was stubborn. And don't take that as a negative, I think you might just have to be that at the very top as it takes an almighty belief and courage to push on and up.

I simply think that Anges way will never make it at this level. It's too flawed, and not just tactically. The romantiscm gets in the way as well, you can't hate the dark arts for example.

Ps. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if he could make it work at City...where he could get all the players he wanted and some stars from their academy

I think he certainly was to an extent, until he saw the silverware potential. On the BBC MNC Rory Smith pointed out that he has pulled the old 'cup pragmatist' thing several times in his career which I did not know and found interesting.

Yes indeed, the City question would be intriguing!