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Men in the box.....

No, I'm not talking about the life story of Imogen Thomas........

I've watched Barca a fair bit over the last month and the way we play is very similar....up until that final third. We are patient, keep the ball and keep it moving. I think it's pretty obvious that this is what we are currently trying to emulate (whether that comes from the Management or the players taking it upon themselves who knows, although Redknapp's West Ham sides also tended to use very short passing on the deck) but it's pretty obvious that any sort of Spurs/Barca comparison ends the moment we hit the final third.

Playing possession football obviously has many benefits. One massive benefit is that if your team is good at it, you can actually get away with having quite a weak defence but also have a good defensive record. It simply isn't tested that often because the opposition has less of the ball to attack with and that means you can actually have ball playing defenders in the side that maybe aren't as good as solid defensive specialists. The second benefit is that teams tend to tire out quicker chasing the ball, then when their team is in possession. Apparently Spurs score the majority of their goals between the 61st to 75th minute (indeed we are apparently way ahead of any other Premiership side scoring during that time period in a game) and that is probably down to the opposition tiring.

So why are we so toothless in attack? Why can Barca be so patient in the middle and then all of sudden up the tempo in the final third with quick one touch passing? Well obviously Barca have a higher quality player. No doubt about that! But are they more creative? Yes they are, but I don't think the gulf is as big as would first appear.

What Barca have over us in spades is confidence and bravey in the final third. How many times do you watch our approach play with our players drifting all over the pitch.....and only have one player in the box with four or five of our players standing on the end of the box? All the bloody time. Who are the guilty parties?

Ade loves to pull wide left, irrespective of how many of our players are in the box. If we have no players in the area, but players all around the area Ade STILL goes wide leaving no one there.

VDV just does what he wants. He likes to start high, drop deep and then arrive late. Which simply doesn't work when we are just knocking the ball around in front of the opposition defence.

Bale is probably the one player we have who will sometimes run into space into the box but for the last few weeks he has started roaming around too much in midfield instead of coming into the box from an inside forward position (and is it co-incidence that since Bale has started to roam we seem to be scoring less?)

Lennon simply for me doesn't do enough period. When we are counter attacking he is superb, as he can use his pace and when defenders are backing off of him he scares the brick out of them. But when we are knocking the ball about in front of the opposition defence Lennon is another who is too static or comes infield narrowing us up.

Modric just doesn't get forward enough. Doesn't matter what formation we play. Modric will give, and then be in a position to receive back. He rarely gambles by giving and then running into the box to receive a return pass.

It strikes me that we have too many players trying to create an opening, as opposed to running into space to receive a ball. In fact the only midfielder that we have who I see take up excellent potential goalscoring positions on a regular basis is Kranjcar. Kranjcar gets himself into the box a lot.

And that for me is our biggest issue. Our players simply don't get into the box enough. They are all pulling wide or just outside the box to receive the ball. Everytime Barca get the ball and are knocking it about it's not uncommon for two or three or even four of them to be in the box to receive a pass. It's not uncommon for us to have absolutely no one or just one player.

We aren't doing much wrong. We are so close to going from a good side to a great one. But to do that we need confidence and belief, and more importantly when we are pushing hard in the final third we need a couple of our midfielders to get into that box, draw defenders out of the way and make ourselves harder to defend against.

Personally for the next game I'd drop Ekotto, move Bale to left back and play Kranky wide left. And tell Bale to stay wide but get forward as much as he wants. Parker can then hold and sweep either side to cover our attacking full backs.

We can still get 4th. We just need to have belief.
 
No, I'm not talking about the life story of Imogen Thomas........

I've watched Barca a fair bit over the last month and the way we play is very similar....up until that final third. We are patient, keep the ball and keep it moving. I think it's pretty obvious that this is what we are currently trying to emulate (whether that comes from the Management or the players taking it upon themselves who knows, although Redknapp's West Ham sides also tended to use very short passing on the deck) but it's pretty obvious that any sort of Spurs/Barca comparison ends the moment we hit the final third.

Playing possession football obviously has many benefits. One massive benefit is that if your team is good at it, you can actually get away with having quite a weak defence but also have a good defensive record. It simply isn't tested that often because the opposition has less of the ball to attack with and that means you can actually have ball playing defenders in the side that maybe aren't as good as solid defensive specialists. The second benefit is that teams tend to tire out quicker chasing the ball, then when their team is in possession. Apparently Spurs score the majority of their goals between the 61st to 75th minute (indeed we are apparently way ahead of any other Premiership side scoring during that time period in a game) and that is probably down to the opposition tiring.

So why are we so toothless in attack? Why can Barca be so patient in the middle and then all of sudden up the tempo in the final third with quick one touch passing? Well obviously Barca have a higher quality player. No doubt about that! But are they more creative? Yes they are, but I don't think the gulf is as big as would first appear.

What Barca have over us in spades is confidence and bravey in the final third. How many times do you watch our approach play with our players drifting all over the pitch.....and only have one player in the box with four or five of our players standing on the end of the box? All the bloody time. Who are the guilty parties?

Ade loves to pull wide left, irrespective of how many of our players are in the box. If we have no players in the area, but players all around the area Ade STILL goes wide leaving no one there.

VDV just does what he wants. He likes to start high, drop deep and then arrive late. Which simply doesn't work when we are just knocking the ball around in front of the opposition defence.

Bale is probably the one player we have who will sometimes run into space into the box but for the last few weeks he has started roaming around too much in midfield instead of coming into the box from an inside forward position (and is it co-incidence that since Bale has started to roam we seem to be scoring less?)

Lennon simply for me doesn't do enough period. When we are counter attacking he is superb, as he can use his pace and when defenders are backing off of him he scares the brick out of them. But when we are knocking the ball about in front of the opposition defence Lennon is another who is too static or comes infield narrowing us up.

Modric just doesn't get forward enough. Doesn't matter what formation we play. Modric will give, and then be in a position to receive back. He rarely gambles by giving and then running into the box to receive a return pass.

It strikes me that we have too many players trying to create an opening, as opposed to running into space to receive a ball. In fact the only midfielder that we have who I see take up excellent potential goalscoring positions on a regular basis is Kranjcar. Kranjcar gets himself into the box a lot.

And that for me is our biggest issue. Our players simply don't get into the box enough. They are all pulling wide or just outside the box to receive the ball. Everytime Barca get the ball and are knocking it about it's not uncommon for two or three or even four of them to be in the box to receive a pass. It's not uncommon for us to have absolutely no one or just one player.

We aren't doing much wrong. We are so close to going from a good side to a great one. But to do that we need confidence and belief, and more importantly when we are pushing hard in the final third we need a couple of our midfielders to get into that box, draw defenders out of the way and make ourselves harder to defend against.

Personally for the next game I'd drop Ekotto, move Bale to left back and play Kranky wide left. And tell Bale to stay wide but get forward as much as he wants. Parker can then hold and sweep either side to cover our attacking full backs.

We can still get 4th. We just need to have belief.

Good post MK. And well observed.
I'd noticed the similarities too, but feared derision if i posted it. But as you say, we just don't have the final clinical push.

Still want Harry out though.
 
Anyone notice how Barca have just conceded that they won't score from a corner tonight and just stick about 3 players in the box? The have plenty of men outside, so when the ball is headed out they're on to it straight away. Not that I think we should do that, just an interesting bit of tactics that Guardiola has thrown to relate to his opposition. Not sure if Harry would do the same!
 
Good post, echoes what many have said, we have too many chefs and not enough servants.

Glad you've finally come around, maybe now you'll consider why our crosses dont have much of an effect, as danish said people dont attack the ball...but most importantly we dont have eough people in the box just like i said to you many a times in the past when you blame our poor attempts from wide on the crosses. if we can get bodies in there then we will be much better for it

especially if we can get our attacking players to make runs in behind the back line...VDV needs to do that more and stop hovering all over the place not threatening anyone
 
Good post, echoes what many have said, we have too many chefs and not enough servants.

Glad you've finally come around, maybe now you'll consider why our crosses dont have much of an effect, as danish said people dont attack the ball...but most importantly we dont have eough people in the box just like i said to you many a times in the past. if we can get bodies in there then we will be much better for it

especially if we can get our attacking players to make runs in behind the back line...VDV needs to do that more and stop hovering all over the place not threatening anyone

What's that meant to mean? I've said for ages that Walker and Ekotto's crosses are pointless. We need crosses drilled across the six yard box (or at least just outside) on the deck.
 
There are plenty of differences between us and Barca, not least the obvious gulf in quality.

We try to emulate their style in a few respects, but its a poor imitation IMHO.

Clearly its ingrained into their way of playing, its ground into them on the training ground - with us its certainly not.
 
What's that meant to mean? I've said for ages that Walker and Ekotto's crosses are pointless. We need crosses drilled across the six yard box (or at least just outside) on the deck.

you were blaming our crosses on everyone (you rarely singled out ekotto and walker as you said it was the team that couldnt cross that great) not just those two...for a start you blamed it on crosses last season and we had the low numbers in the box MORE last season than this year and walker didnt even play....bale never got in the box last season fro crosses..this year he does it more

most teams dont have pin point crossers, what they do have are numbers in the box with people willing to attack the ball...which makes an average cross into a more meaningful one
 
There are plenty of differences between us and Barca, not least the obvious gulf in quality.

We try to emulate their style in a few respects, but its a poor imitation IMHO.

Clearly its ingrained into their way of playing, its ground into them on the training ground - with us its certainly not.

Please elaborate. From what I can tell (although it disappeared in the second half against Chelsea strangely enough) they up the tempo quickly in the final third and get men in the box. Please eleborate on the other differences? Also why do you think we don't work on short passing game when Redknapp and certain players have said we do in training? Do you think they are lying publically, and if so for what reason?
 
you were blaming our crosses on everyone (you rarely singled out ekotto and walker as you said it was the team that couldnt cross that great) not just those two...for a start you blamed it on crosses last season and we had the low numbers in the box MORE last season than this year and walker didnt even play....bale never got in the box last season fro crosses..this year he does it more

most teams dont have pin point crossers, what they do have are numbers in the box with people willing to attack the ball...which makes an average cross into a more meaningful one

Last season? I didn't even post here last season?!
 
my bad, i confused you with someone else. dont want to mention his name as you might think i'm stirring something

We don't do enough of the right type of crosses. Launching high balls into Defoe achieves nothing for example. And most importantly of all we don't cross quick enough. We allow men behind the ball and then throw hit and hope crosses in (well Walker does) and they either don't clear the first man or go past the back post. We need to get the ball out wide quicker and then drill crosses in first time.
 
Like you cant see further differences yourself :lol:

Their workrate is phenominal and puts ours to shame (not that ours is bad by any means, they put most teams to shame)
Their pressing game is second to none and ours doesnt come close
The movement of players around whoever has the ball is outstanding, something I dont believe we are especially good at all in all

And yes, as you say, the runners willing to get ahead of the ball is a huge lesson we could learn.

Obviously not exhaustive and obviously there is plenty more besides. No doubt you are just fishing for ammo to try and counter with though, because I know you arent so blind you dont already know any of that.

I dont ever recall anyone saying we work on short passing in training, genuinely, so am certainly not calling anyone a liar. That said, working on short passing could be an exhaustive exercise on patterns of movement, passing and moving, anticipating spaces.... or it could be a good old fashioned 5 a side...
 
We don't do enough of the right type of crosses. Launching high balls into Defoe achieves nothing for example. And most importantly of all we don't cross quick enough. We allow men behind the ball and then throw hit and hope crosses in (well Walker does) and they either don't clear the first man or go past the back post. We need to get the ball out wide quicker and then drill crosses in first time.

Its the runners into the box/anticipation that is at fault more than crosses themselves - how often this season have we seen Bale put one right across the deck between keeper and defender just begging to be knocked in...

....only for absolutely nobody to be anywhere near?
 
Like you cant see further differences yourself :lol:

Their workrate is phenominal and puts ours to shame (not that ours is bad by any means, they put most teams to shame)
Their pressing game is second to none and ours doesnt come close
The movement of players around whoever has the ball is outstanding, something I dont believe we are especially good at all in all

And yes, as you say, the runners willing to get ahead of the ball is a huge lesson we could learn.

Obviously not exhaustive and obviously there is plenty more besides. No doubt you are just fishing for ammo to try and counter with though, because I know you arent so blind you dont already know any of that.

I dont ever recall anyone saying we work on short passing in training, genuinely, so am certainly not calling anyone a liar. That said, working on short passing could be an exhaustive exercise on patterns of movement, passing and moving, anticipating spaces.... or it could be a good old fashioned 5 a side...

We press well, but Barca are masters at it. But we do press better than most people realise.

As for patterns etc. Football science = load of gonad*s. Football IS a simple game, and people have started trying to over complicate it so much.
 
We don't do enough of the right type of crosses. Launching high balls into Defoe achieves nothing for example. And most importantly of all we don't cross quick enough. We allow men behind the ball and then throw hit and hope crosses in (well Walker does) and they either don't clear the first man or go past the back post. We need to get the ball out wide quicker and then drill crosses in first time.

i see your point when you make it more about defoe. but VDV , bale and lennon needs to take blame as well...and possibly one daring midfielder central player...cause quite frankly you can cross the ball and the players in there could distract tjhe attentions of the defenders or the 2nd ball could drop to one of our players...look at arsenal...they cross the ball nowadays more than they did in the past but they get more than van persie in there...and they have some of the weakest players in there

having said that arsenal cross more on the deck.....i think...in which case i see your point

but i still feel that we need significantly more on the box so that our crosses..low or not...to be more telling
 
i see your point when you make it more about defoe. but VDV , bale and lennon needs to take blame as well...and possibly one daring midfielder central player...cause quite frankly you can cross the ball and the players in there could distract tjhe attentions of the defenders or the 2nd ball could drop to one of our players...look at arsenal...they cross the ball nowadays more than they did in the past but they get more than van persie in there...and they have some of the weakest players in there

having said that arsenal cross more on the deck.....i think...in which case i see your point

but i still feel that we need significantly more on the box so that our crosses..low or not...to be more telling

Hence my initial post. I've always believed if you play two wingers in a 4-4-2 when one has the ball the other should be coming into the box from the other flank effectively making themselves a third target (behind the two forwards).
 
We press well, but Barca are masters at it. But we do press better than most people realise.

As for patterns etc. Football science = load of gonad*s. Football IS a simple game, and people have started trying to over complicate it so much.

Who mentioned football science?

Im talking about rehearsed patterns of play, systems of movement/positioning the players are well accustomed to through training.

Football may be a simple game, but as with any team endeavour the more practice and preparation that goes into a performance the better that performance will be.

The very best teams, I am sure, work extensively on getting the simple things right and second nature. Making sure controlled premeditated movements/actions are done instinctively.
 
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