London Bridge and Borough terrorist incident

[braineclipse]

This, going round throwing people into jail every time they say something anti establishment would only make more problems in a already overcrowded jail system. There is no quick fix to these problems which because of our forgien policy ( ie bending over and doing what America says) has helped lead us to this.

I agree. Changing our societies away from the principles that are actually worth defending is the last thing we should be doing.

Freedom of speech, democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to assemble... the basic enlightenment principles. We have to defend these, or lose our way of life. And they're under attack in several ways.

I also agree that there is no quick fix. Don't listen to anyone claiming that there is one. Like people running for office...

 

[Grays_1890]

there's a million people saying things to that effect, the difference between what people are willing to say and actually willing to do is enormous, radicalisation isn't a switch

And when a fellow muslim reports him as radicalising their kids? That makes him more than someone full of hot air, that makes him a influencer of hate not a follower.

In the last week I have heard calls for more to be done in Muslim communities, too much turning a blind eye and the future being to work closer to identify threats. Well that has happened, it is happening, but in this case the threat I would say was not taken serious enough.

No one has said lock them all up far from it

 

[Grays_1890]

I also agree that there is no quick fix. Don't listen to anyone claiming that there is one. Like people running for office...

I agree there are no quick fixes but there is a need for prevention until a time a fix can be established.

Trump was 100% right when he said the word does not know enough about this crisis but until then he would take prevention measures needed to ensure safety, no mater how unpopular.

 

[Baleforce]

And when a fellow muslim reports him as radicalising their kids? That makes him more than someone full of hot air, that makes him a influencer of hate not a follower.

In the last week I have heard calls for more to be done in Muslim communities, too much turning a blind eye and the future being to work closer to identify threats. Well that has happened, it is happening, but in this case the threat I would say was not taken serious enough.

No one has said lock them all up far from it

that would make him a criminal, someone who could, and should, be locked up

the law is based on what people do, not what they think

 

[braineclipse]

And when a fellow muslim reports him as radicalising their kids? That makes him more than someone full of hot air, that makes him a influencer of hate not a follower.

In the last week I have heard calls for more to be done in Muslim communities, too much turning a blind eye and the future being to work closer to identify threats. Well that has happened, it is happening, but in this case the threat I would say was not taken serious enough.

No one has said lock them all up far from it

This seems to be a case that perhaps should have been handled differently. At the same time the way the intelligence communities work it's tough to say from the outside what should have been done differently. We don't even have any real idea what was being done.

What should be done in these cases? Claims from Muslim communities that this person is having a bad influence on kids and might be dangerous... How does the security and intelligence communities proceed from there to be sure to prevent an attack like this one?

I agree there are no quick fixes but there is a need for prevention until a time a fix can be established.

Trump was 100% right when he said the word does not know enough about this crisis but until then he would take prevention measures needed to ensure safety, no mater how unpopular.

No matter how unpopular? Are you serious? You're essentially parroting the words of an aspiring authoritarian leader.

Of all the people in the world that should know more about this and most other topics Trump is high on the list.

 

[Grays_1890]

No matter how unpopular? Are you serious? You're essentially parroting the words of an aspiring authoritarian leader.

Of all the people in the world that should know more about this and most other topics Trump is high on the list.

Ok well I would rephrase that to say even if its unpopular.

We won't agree on alot of this and thats fine we don't have to I can live with that and your right we don't know whats being investigated and what is not I agree. However I will say this, 3 attacks in 3 months, one attacker had flown to and from Libya and another was on national TV spouting hate and reported by his own community for being a hate preacher. So for me the attacks are being too frequent for my liking and I don't apologise for saying that and secondly and I will choose diplomatic terms, there seems too be a crack in the system based on two of the attackers being able to circumnavigate the system in such a cavalier way.

 

[braineclipse]

Ok well I would rephrase that to say even if its unpopular.

We won't agree on alot of this and thats fine we don't have to I can live with that and your right we don't know whats being investigated and what is not I agree. However I will say this, 3 attacks in 3 months, one attacker had flown to and from Libya and another was on national TV spouting hate and reported by his own community for being a hate preacher. So for me the attacks are being too frequent for my liking and I don't apologise for saying that and secondly and I will choose diplomatic terms, there seems too be a crack in the system based on two of the attackers being able to circumnavigate the system in such a cavalier way.

The attacks are too frequent for the liking of any rational morally sound human being.

It's fair to be upset, angry, afraid... it's fair to react in a whole host of different ways. But when it comes to actual solutions cool heads need to prevail. The terrorists are crossing their fingers hoping for ill timed emotional reactions.

You call for changes, so I ask again...

What should have happened to people based on what has been described? What should happen to people that travel to and from Libya in your opinion? Or people that are accused of spreading extremist ideas? How do you suggest things change so terrorists can't circumnavigate the system?

 

[Spursman]

You preach hate you get tagged, cant be risking young kids getting blown up because they are scared to offend. if Muslims feels they are being treated unfairly then so be it! one person dead is one too many to take that risk! enough

Also Trumps travel ban is necessary now. Enough pussy footing around, im sick of it

 

[braineclipse]

You preach hate you get tagged, cant be risking young kids getting blown up because they are scared to offend. if Muslims feels they are being treated unfairly then so be it! one person dead is one too many to take that risk! enough

Also Trumps travel ban is necessary now. Enough pussy footing around, im sick of it

What does "you get tagged" mean?

The US are blowing people up with drones. Can we really be accused of pussy footing around?

The travel ban is a solution? Trump has the answers? What is this? Opposite day?

 

[Grays_1890]

The attacks are too frequent for the liking of any rational morally sound human being.

It's fair to be upset, angry, afraid... it's fair to react in a whole host of different ways. But when it comes to actual solutions cool heads need to prevail. The terrorists are crossing their fingers hoping for ill timed emotional reactions.

You call for changes, so I ask again...

What should have happened to people based on what has been described? What should happen to people that travel to and from Libya in your opinion? Or people that are accused of spreading extremist ideas? How do you suggest things change so terrorists can't circumnavigate the system?

I think its fair to call for changes when one UK citizen left the country to a IS hot spot, came back and killed and another UK citizen went on tele to announce his intentions, was reported by a peer and was still able to attack, that is not emotional to expect some change is it really? I have nothing to judge it against as the government does not announce its success in counter terrorism but we can see the failing so its fair to comment on it, is it not?

 

[Spursman]

What does "you get tagged" mean?

The US are blowing people up with drones. Can we really be accused of pussy footing around?

The travel ban is a solution? Trump has the answers? What is this? Opposite day?

Track them with a Tag, not allowed out certain areas, restrict their movement. like i said 1 death is too many. Let these bastards feel the heat.

Travel ban will help free movement to and from certain countries. The uk has to be seen to take a hardline approach.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You preach hate you get tagged, cant be risking young kids getting blown up because they are scared to offend. if Muslims feels they are being treated unfairly then so be it! one person dead is one too many to take that risk! enough

Also Trumps travel ban is necessary now. Enough pussy footing around, im sick of it[/QUOTE]

What about the home grown muslims who have lived here all their lives?

We have to win a war of ideas with Muslims as Sam Harris said. Muslims themselves have to do more to tackle this in their communities and in mosques.

What about the home grown muslims who have lived here all their lives?

We have to win a war of ideas with Muslims as Sam Harris said. Muslims themselves have to do more to tackle this in their communities and in mosques.

 

[Grays_1890]

We have to win a war of ideas with Muslims as Sam Harris said. Muslims themselves have to do more to tackle this in their communities and in mosques.

And if you ignore Muslims reporting Muslims? Then you really are in trouble

 

[braineclipse]

I think its fair to call for changes when one UK citizen left the country to a IS hot spot, came back and killed and another UK citizen went on tele to announce his intentions, was reported by a peer and was still able to attack, that is not emotional to expect some change is it really? I have nothing to judge it against as the government does not announce its success in counter terrorism but we can see the failing so its fair to comment on it, is it not?

But what changes are you calling for? What is your comment actually a comment inn favour of?

What should have happened to these individuals? What should happen to those who now or in the future fit a similar description?

 

[Parklaner81]

I find the idea that we've been soft on extremism bizarre. We've not been smart enough. But we've not been too soft.

So, to take just a handful of examples;

This guy freely and openly parades his views on our streets and on mainstream British television, then goes on to commit this vile atrocity...


...We've allowed hundreds of Jihadi fighters to return to this country to roam the streets, after leaving to fight abroad...

http://news.sky.com/story/battle-hardened-returning-jihadists-pose-uk-terror-threat-10815737


...and we hand out sentences so lenient that the vast majority of convicted terrorists since 9/11 are now free, including 7/7 accomplices and the leader of the airline liquid bombs plot...

http://news.sky.com/story/warning-as-hundreds-of-jailed-terrorists-back-on-uk-streets-10639848


...and you don't think we've been too soft?

Ok. I can see that we probably aren't going to agree on this...

 

[Grays_1890]

But what changes are you calling for? What is your comment actually a comment inn favour of?

What should have happened to these individuals? What should happen to those who now or in the future fit a similar description?

Well to phrase you I agree that I don't think we have been smart enough.

If someone leaves to go to Libya and comes back I would like to think they would be tracked for the positive, allowed to do so on the basis that we will learn enough from their trip and the said person that there would be a reduction in threat, the fact he went on to kill I would assume that was not the case and again don't know the facts but that would be one of my key wishes. When people say send them home I don't also believe that, as long as we are learning enough about the network they are in and it is a greater benefit for them being here. If they are simply let loose on lack of evidence then thats a failure.

It should by definition be harder to navigate to and from countries of great threat to us, most countries in the world make it hard for others to enter especially if the country they are travelling to or from has historic political "issues" shall we say. From Libya to the UK you can apply for a standard UK passport and be allowed to stay for up to 6 months for tourism, same for Syria, I would for sure tighten that up,

For those here as UK citizens who have expressed hate, I am not talking about a different view but those outside Finsbury park mosque spouting hate I would put them on an enforced program of checking in, like a probation and use those as a platform to keep tabs and also engage on things, if they break that probation then stricter punishment is expected. I am talking radical talkers, those that are trying like in the early example to influence kids.

 

[braineclipse]

Track them with a Tag, not allowed out certain areas, restrict their movement. like i said 1 death is too many. Let these bastards feel the heat.

Travel ban will help free movement to and from certain countries. The uk has to be seen to take a hardline approach.

What kind of tags and follow-up is necessary to stop these attacks?

We're talking about attacks that a moderately intelligent person can plan in 15 minutes and execute in half that time.

We're talking about a lot of potential suspects. One of the French terrorists last year was on a watchlist said to contain 400,000 people. I'm not sure what the UK numbers would be, but tens of thousands is probably a low estimate.

I think quite a few underestimate both just how draconian and expensive such measures would have to be to truly effectively put an end to this kind of attack. It would be playing right into the hands of the terrorists as it would serve both as a recruitment tool and a profound change of our societies.

How did we get to the point where McCarthyism on steroids seems like the solution?

 

[parklane1]

There's an awful lot of ground between saying 'something anti establishment' and the kinds of views these people espouse. And the state of our prison system is absolutely no excuse not to act. It is quite clear that certain freedoms in our society have been and are being abused, and that needs addressing however difficult it may be.

No one is saying we/us should not act ( not sure where you are getting that idea from), there are lots of things that are said and as i say if you lock people up for saying them then you will never get anywhere except more problems.

 

[braineclipse]

Well to phrase you I agree that I don't think we have been smart enough.

If someone leaves to go to Libya and comes back I would like to think they would be tracked for the positive, allowed to do so on the basis that we will learn enough from their trip and the said person that there would be a reduction in threat, the fact he went on to kill I would assume that was not the case and again don't know the facts but that would be one of my key wishes. When people say send them home I don't also believe that, as long as we are learning enough about the network they are in and it is a greater benefit for them being here. If they are simply let loose on lack of evidence then thats a failure.

It should by definition be harder to navigate to and from countries of great threat to us, most countries in the world make it hard for others to enter especially if the country they are travelling to or from has historic political "issues" shall we say. From Libya to the UK you can apply for a standard UK passport and be allowed to stay for up to 6 months for tourism, same for Syria, I would for sure tighten that up,

For those here as UK citizens who have expressed hate, I am not talking about a different view but those outside Finsbury park mosque spouting hate I would put them on an enforced program of checking in, like a probation and use those as a platform to keep tabs and also engage on things, if they break that probation then stricter punishment is expected. I am talking radical talkers, those that are trying like in the early example to influence kids.

See my response to Spursman.

To be truly effective against this kind of attack measures would have to be draconian and very expensive.

 

[braineclipse]

So, to take just a handful of examples;

This guy freely and openly parades his views on our streets and on mainstream British television, then goes on to commit this vile atrocity...


...We've allowed hundreds of Jihadi fighters to return to this country to roam the streets, after leaving to fight abroad...

http://news.sky.com/story/battle-hardened-returning-jihadists-pose-uk-terror-threat-10815737


...and we hand out sentences so lenient that the vast majority of convicted terrorists since 9/11 are now free, including 7/7 accomplices and the leader of the airline liquid bombs plot...

http://news.sky.com/story/warning-as-hundreds-of-jailed-terrorists-back-on-uk-streets-10639848


...and you don't think we've been too soft?

Ok. I can see that we probably aren't going to agree on this...

And how would you handle tens or hundreds of thousands of potential suspects in a way that prevents the kinds of attacks we're seeing?

It's not like nothing is being done. It's not like people are returning from fighting for ISIS declaring their history at the border and coming back in.

To what extent would you have the UK track the activities of its citizens abroad?