Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Finney Is Back]

Please tell me you didn't count a shared charity shield as a trophy in the 90's?

Please also tell me you didn't equate the value of the club as an asset going up to Levy & Lewis made £1.5B between them?

Your comparison to Liverpool is also telling, you see no difference (revenue/fanbase) other than the owners?

No, I counted an FA Cup and a League Cup.... Please tell me that you actually know the trophies we have won over the years?

Sorry. I don't understand your second question. Can you rephrase please?

I didn't equate anything to Liverpool in that particular post you replied to? In my following post I used Liverpool as an example merely to highlight the difference in the behaviour of the owners, that has nothing to do with fanbase at all. One set of owners are prepared to dilute their holding to help the football side of things and one set of owners are not (despite the second set of owners actually having made a far greater percentage increase in terms of their own money invested and the value of their asset).

 

[Raziel]

Predictably the knives are out for Levy, but, going by transfermarkt.com, the Board's investment in the squad over the last two seasons amounts to a net outlay of over £160m.

GLC, Ndombele, Sessegnon, Clarke, Gedson and Bergwyn were all relative newcomers when Jose took over in November 2019. Of those, only Clarke and Gedson were greeted with anything other than outright approval. Arrivals during JM's tenure included Hart, Doherty, Reguilon, Hojbjerg, Bale, Vinicius and Rodon. With the possible exception of Hart, all were hailed on here as excellent buys.

Okay we did have to endure two seasons of famine prior to that, but the £1.2bn investment in the new stadium may have been something of a distraction.

At the end of the day, Mourinho was brought in as the man most likely to deliver a trophy. He was given plenty of backing by the board, the only real negative being he would have preferred to invest in a CB rather than Bale. Against that there was huge excitement at the arrival of Bale, it was considered something of a coup.

So, all things considered, I'm not yet ready to buy into this latest narrative that Enic are exclusively preoccupied with putting profit before progress.

Careful, you are flirting with facts. The work has be done before (I can be bothered again)

- Pre stadium work (land acquisition, training ground, actual build) -> Spurs had a net outlay that was competitive to other clubs
- During stadium period - net spend was typically zero
- Immediately post stadium build - net outlay again that is competitive (if not Chelsea/United levels)

But .. that doesn't match the lazy narrative, or take the context of the Levy's time period (PL/CL/Money doping clubs, stadium build, covid, etc.)

 

[Baleforce]

Not speaking about 'true level'. But speaking about where the club actually was.
Not being blinded by a delusion of rightful place but actually dealing with what had happened in the prior years, the situation we found ourselves in (league positions, finances, players on the roster)
When arguments like yours are put forward and scrutinised, it's easy to see how much flim-flam they actually are. Our true level...? Oh yeah? I'm 40 tomorrow and have been a Spurs fan for about three quarters of that.
The evidence of my life and the experience of my support is that Spurs were a jobbing mid-table team with a recent history of doing ok in cups but that history was getting further away. The last ten to fifteen years have seen an unexpected (but sorely welcome) rise in prominence and stature, whilst dealing with a damn strange set of circumstances.

That pat little list you put of trophies may look like evidence of decline, but it summarises over SIXTY years. It's so free of context as to bear almost no meaning, save merely as a record. Nothing else to do with the story.

it me

 

[Baleforce]

if only some new competition would come along that would negate the spending power between us and our peers, really lock us in to the top echelon of the game for the foreseeable future, the fans would be right behind Levy and the club then

 

[Gutter Boy]

Predictably the knives are out for Levy, but, going by transfermarkt.com, the Board's investment in the squad over the last two seasons amounts to a net outlay of over £160m.

GLC, Ndombele, Sessegnon, Clarke, Gedson and Bergwyn were all relative newcomers when Jose took over in November 2019. Of those, only Clarke and Gedson were greeted with anything other than outright approval. Arrivals during JM's tenure included Hart, Doherty, Reguilon, Hojbjerg, Bale, Vinicius and Rodon. With the possible exception of Hart, all were hailed on here as excellent buys.

Okay we did have to endure two seasons of famine prior to that, but the £1.2bn investment in the new stadium may have been something of a distraction.

At the end of the day, Mourinho was brought in as the man most likely to deliver a trophy. He was given plenty of backing by the board, the only real negative being he would have preferred to invest in a CB rather than Bale. Against that there was huge excitement at the arrival of Bale, it was considered something of a coup.

So, all things considered, I'm not yet ready to buy into this latest narrative that Enic are exclusively preoccupied with putting profit before progress.

I think the CB thing is interesting. Mourinho clearly wanted a John Terry type who could only play in a low block (Skriniar). That would have been the only signing that wasn't futureproofed for a change in manager, considering how few other top coaches play low blocks. So for all I hate Mourinho, I think that might have been slightly sabotaged by the board, knowing that Rodon will be much more use over 5-6 seasons, as opposed to just 1.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Not speaking about 'true level'. But speaking about where the club actually was.
Not being blinded by a delusion of rightful place but actually dealing with what had happened in the prior years, the situation we found ourselves in (league positions, finances, players on the roster)
When arguments like yours are put forward and scrutinised, it's easy to see how much flim-flam they actually are. Our true level...? Oh yeah? I'm 40 tomorrow and have been a Spurs fan for about three quarters of that.
The evidence of my life and the experience of my support is that Spurs were a jobbing mid-table team with a recent history of doing ok in cups but that history was getting further away. The last ten to fifteen years have seen an unexpected (but sorely welcome) rise in prominence and stature, whilst dealing with a damn strange set of circumstances.

That pat little list you put of trophies may look like evidence of decline, but it summarises over SIXTY years. It's so free of context as to bear almost no meaning, save merely as a record. Nothing else to do with the story.

We had the 5th highest income in the PL when ENIC took over, along with a net positive cash position. The finances were actually in very good shape.

In the last 15 years or so we've had two managers who did fantastically for the club and consistently over achieved compared to their budget.... Both were sacked.

 

[Raziel]

No, I counted an FA Cup and a League Cup.... Please tell me that you actually know the trophies we have won over the years?

Sorry. I don't understand your second question. Can you rephrase please?

I didn't equate anything to Liverpool in that particular post you replied to? In my following post I used Liverpool as an example merely to highlight the difference in the behaviour of the owners, that has nothing to do with fanbase at all. One set of owners are prepared to dilute their holding to help the football side of things and one set of owners are not (despite the second set of owners actually having made a far greater percentage increase in terms of their own money invested and the value of their asset).

My mistake on the 90's, yes 2 .. (your trophy list shows a decline per decade for 60 years btw, not sure what that has to do with Levy?)

Re the £1.5B, outside of the net increase in the value of the club, I'm not really understanding how you think Levy & Lewis made £1.5B, the math
- ENIC/Levy/Lewis have probably paid somewhere in the region of £50M for the club (initial buy, then share buy out), rough guide
- The club may be valued at £1.5B-£2B today but that is no guarantee of sell price (you could probably buy Barca for that money)
- The club has debt of somewhere between £750M - £1B which would be counted against the sale price

So outside of salary for Levy, neither has made billions and if sold tomorrow, might lead to a profit in the range of a few hundred million after 20 years.

Liverpool is a very different club, a global brand that is way beyond Spurs, the owners simply made a calculation based on brand/club potential that may not be an option for us.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think the CB thing is interesting. Mourinho clearly wanted a John Terry type who could only play in a low block (Skriniar). That would have been the only signing that wasn't futureproofed for a change in manager, considering how few other top coaches play low blocks. So for all I hate Mourinho, I think that might have been slightly sabotaged by the board, knowing that Rodon will be much more use over 5-6 seasons, as opposed to just 1.

If that is the case then it only shows what a terrible mistake the powers that be at our club made in bringing in Jose in the first place. You cannot bring in a manager and then choose not to buy players that fit his preferred system of play because you're worried that the next manager won't want them. Instead of that what about having an identity where you employ managers with similar principles? (and preferably front foot, exciting, attacking ones).

 

[Baleforce]

I think the CB thing is interesting. Mourinho clearly wanted a John Terry type who could only play in a low block (Skriniar). That would have been the only signing that wasn't futureproofed for a change in manager, considering how few other top coaches play low blocks. So for all I hate Mourinho, I think that might have been slightly sabotaged by the board, knowing that Rodon will be much more use over 5-6 seasons, as opposed to just 1.

I don't think that is possible, Levy was fully on board the Jose bus at the time. Occam's razor suggests we just couldn't get a deal done for what we could afford to spend.

 

[harr1984]

Not speaking about 'true level'. But speaking about where the club actually was.
Not being blinded by a delusion of rightful place but actually dealing with what had happened in the prior years, the situation we found ourselves in (league positions, finances, players on the roster)
When arguments like yours are put forward and scrutinised, it's easy to see how much flim-flam they actually are. Our true level...? Oh yeah? I'm 40 tomorrow and have been a Spurs fan for about three quarters of that.
The evidence of my life and the experience of my support is that Spurs were a jobbing mid-table team with a recent history of doing ok in cups but that history was getting further away. The last ten to fifteen years have seen an unexpected (but sorely welcome) rise in prominence and stature, whilst dealing with a damn strange set of circumstances.

That pat little list you put of trophies may look like evidence of decline, but it summarises over SIXTY years. It's so free of context as to bear almost no meaning, save merely as a record. Nothing else to do with the story.

Agree, and hope you enjoy the big 4-0 tomorrow....

 

[Raziel]

We had the 5th highest income in the PL when ENIC took over, along with a net positive cash position. The finances were actually in very good shape.

In the last 15 years or so we've had two managers who did fantastically for the club and consistently over achieved compared to their budget.... Both were sacked.

Mate, you are cherry picking

- We had 5th highest income which unless we overachieved on spend/result meant we were locked out CL (which is/was massive disadvantage)
- during that timeframe, RA buys Chelsea and City happens (we are now minus 2 on the list)
- The gap to the 4 in front was multiples off, not close.

Yes Harry & Poch were sacked, you really think both of those were a mistake? one is already proven correct (club has progressed since Harry), the other time will tell

But let's put this back on you

- You think Levy/ENIC fudged up = fair, your opinion

Explain how we fix this without a sugar daddy solution?

 

[Finney Is Back]

My mistake on the 90's, yes 2 .. (your trophy list shows a decline per decade for 60 years btw, not sure what that has to do with Levy?)

Re the £1.5B, outside of the net increase in the value of the club, I'm not really understanding how you think Levy & Lewis made £1.5B, the math
- ENIC/Levy/Lewis have probably paid somewhere in the region of £50M for the club (initial buy, then share buy out), rough guide
- The club may be valued at £1.5B-£2B today but that is no guarantee of sell price (you could probably buy Barca for that money)
- The club has debt of somewhere between £750M - £1B which would be counted against the sale price

So outside of salary for Levy, neither has made billions and if sold tomorrow, might lead to a profit in the range of a few hundred million after 20 years.

Liverpool is a very different club, a global brand that is way beyond Spurs, the owners simply made a calculation based on brand/club potential that may not be an option for us.

My list shows a decline under Sugar who underinvested in us that has been made even worse by the owners that followed him.
ENIC paid a total of £45m for Spurs (£30m initially and then underwrote a bond for £15m that saw them pick up a bigger stake in the club a few years later). I believe that they own just over 90% of the club in total.
If Spurs was put up for sale tomorrow I think it would probably fetch between £1.2 to £1.5 billion (even with the huge debt that our owners have saddled us with). If we take a midpoint of £1.35 billion and ENICs 90% stake that is over £1.2 billion to Joe and Daniel. A whopping 27 times their investment into the club. ENIC have done very, VERY well indeed out of Spurs. In fact I doubt that Lewis has made as much on a single other investment since making his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday.

I still don't follow your point about Liverpool. Why would it not be possible for our owners to dilute their holding to bring investment into the club like Liverpool's owners have?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mate, you are cherry picking

- We had 5th highest income which unless we overachieved on spend/result meant we were locked out CL (which is/was massive disadvantage)
- during that timeframe, RA buys Chelsea and City happens (we are now minus 2 on the list)
- The gap to the 4 in front was multiples off, not close.

Yes Harry & Poch were sacked, you really think both of those were a mistake? one is already proven correct (club has progressed since Harry), the other time will tell

But let's put this back on you

- You think Levy/ENIC fudged up = fair, your opinion

Explain how we fix this without a sugar daddy solution?

Chelsea already had a higher revenue than us at the time that ENIC bought Spurs.
Yes Emirates Marketing Project happened but to counter balance that Leeds imploded.
I think sacking both of those managers was a mistake yes. Especially Pochettino (actually the only manager that improved Spurs since Harry). I don't have much confidence that powers that be at our club will find another Pochettino (even he was a second choice), they have had more misses than hits and there never really seems to be any strategy other than swaying wildly from one direction to another with each appointment.

When you give a manager the 6th biggest wage budget and one of the smaller transfer budgets in the league you cannot sack them if they finish ahead of that 6th to 8th type par position.

 

[Raziel]

My list shows a decline under Sugar who underinvested in us that has been made even worse by the owners that followed him.
ENIC paid a total of £45m for Spurs (£30m initially and then underwrote a bond for £15m that saw them pick up a bigger stake in the club a few years later). I believe that they own just over 90% of the club in total.
If Spurs was put up for sale tomorrow I think it would probably fetch between £1.2 to £1.5 billion (even with the huge debt that our owners have saddled us with). If we take a midpoint of £1.35 billion and ENICs 90% stake that is over £1.2 billion to Joe and Daniel. A whopping 27 times their investment into the club. ENIC have done very, VERY well indeed out of Spurs. In fact I doubt that Lewis has made as much on a single other investment since making his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday.

I still don't follow your point about Liverpool. Why would it not be possible for our owners to dilute their holding to bring investment into the club like Liverpool's owners have?

Mate

- You have a house worth a £1M, you owe the bank £800K mortgage, someone buys it for £1M, you don't get £1M, you get £1M minus bank debt. So in your math above you totally missed the debt payoff, so in no model does ENIC take home a billion+

 

[JerusalemMan]

We had the 5th highest income in the PL when ENIC took over, along with a net positive cash position. The finances were actually in very good shape.

In the last 15 years or so we've had two managers who did fantastically for the club and consistently over achieved compared to their budget.... Both were sacked.

As a response...that's pretty thin gruel.

 

[JerusalemMan]

I used to say that Spurs fans were about two-thirds ENIC in and a third ENIC-out, but that was during the good times with Poch. Now my gut feeling is that it's 50:50.

During the good Poch years, you believe that an entire third of the fanbase still wanted the ownership out?

Maybe an entire third of the small fringe that dwells on certain online communities. But they aren't representative of the whole fanbase, by a long chalk.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mate

- You have a house worth a £1M, you owe the bank £800K mortgage, someone buys it for £1M, you don't get £1M, you get £1M minus bank debt. So in your math above you totally missed the debt payoff, so in no model does ENIC take home a billion+

I haven't missed the debt at all..... I have factored it in. With zero debt we're probably worth a minimum of £2 billion.

 

[Finney Is Back]

As a response...that's pretty thin gruel.

If by 'thin gruel' you mean factual then I agree.

 

[Raziel]

I haven't missed the debt at all..... I have factored it in. With zero debt we're probably worth a minimum of £2 billion.

I don't see it mate, for £1.2B +debt you could probably buy Barca.

This is another of those uniquely Spurs challenges, for the money it would cost to buy us there are other options for cheaper.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't see it mate, for £1.2B +debt you could probably buy Barca.

This is another of those uniquely Spurs challenges, for the money it would cost to buy us there are other options for cheaper.

You couldn't get anywhere near buying Barcelona for that (or Real Madrid). Firstly because the valuation is far too low and secondly because they are both owned by their members as opposed to being owned by an individual or corporation.

So how much do you think THFC is worth then?