Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Your one or mine?
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Chairman's message
- Thread starter ricky2tricky4city
- Start date
See this is a very good argument
- Levy took a gamble, that a short term success view would make sense in getting us past the trophy curse, one can see the idea behind the action
It didn't work (big look at our players on that one) and he HAS to answer for that.
- I don't buy he had no intention to back Jose (7 players suggest otherwise) but Covid must have had an impact on final total.
This is where an interesting discussion lies
- Should we have gone for the "next" Poch immediately, accepted a project timeline then?
- Would that have been lack of ambition?
- Or should we have gone for someone not quite Jose but still experienced?
- Was the post Poch manager doomed to always be "not Poch"? so why not go someone the fans would truly never love anyway?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Yes...I could see the logic in it. Our players needing a different voice. But also the squad was just older, not going to press as much, so both tactically and in terms of mentality, they had hopefully matured to a point where a rugged, pragmatic, win at all costs approach could work and they could handle the pressure.
It then comes back to what I have been saying though - we finally, consistently punched above our weight once we lowered expectations and built a culture and spirit that other teams didn’t have. That was the reason we succeeded. It wasn’t that the players were that level (save for Kane), it was that in Poch’s system they looked like they were at that level. Once we move away from that, we end up just batting at bar, because we only have the finances of a top 6 side, not a top 4 one.
So while the logic is there, it was a gamble that didn’t work and Levy had no precedent even to hope it would work. Jose has never done what Spurs needed him to do. So it was hope, rather than a well considered plan. And it meant Levy had way too much trust in our players, who supposedly complained about Poch and then complained about Jose. They hadn’t matured into elite mentality players and needed a different voice, they were by and large the top 6 players they always were, and it was Poch’s system and culture that helped them punch further. That’s why the last two years is on Levy for me, and why my confidence in him was so shaken. He got this one badly wrong.
But it is an interesting debate around what he could have done instead. The other option is to give Poch and staff a £5m bonus. Say you’re not going to like the next 2 years, because we can’t quite yet make the moves you want us to make. But you have us way ahead of schedule, and you’re our guy. So take this money, while we reduce the expectations again and allow you to rebuild the culture again like you did 5 years previously, and in a couple of years we’ll be back.
I honestly think he was that unique and special that you do something unconventional to keep him, because there is no better option. And while he was frustrated at what he perceived to be more GKN signings he was being offered, pay him a bonus as a sign of commitment and good faith, so he sticks it through and comes out the other side. Maybe that sign of faith could have reinvigorated him.
Otherwise, I think you are right. There wasn’t that many other options out there. Arsenal got Arteta...when did Ancelotti move to Everton? At the end of the day though, we weren’t strategic. We surveyed the options available to us and thought Jose was the best option. We then backward rationalised all of the reasons why Jose might work, and it just didn’t. I think the most strategic thing we could have done was pay Poch whatever he wanted to see through the next 2 years, as he would then be able to reap the rewards of everything he built.
Maybe it’s a crazy idea. Maybe he wouldn’t have gone for it. But I think he was that special. And he was our difference maker. And I think Levy probably lost sight of that, while at the same time thinking the opportunity to finally get Jose was too good to pass up.
Yiddo
Cecil Poynton
I think quite a few members of this forum were looking forward and happy to the summer signings.
As for Levy, are we going to blame him for the teams continuously bottling cup finals and big games? I guess thats down to the players not being good enough? The same players that are good enough to get us in the position in the first place?
I don't think our approach to the transfer market has been bad under Levy. We prioritised the stadium and training ground over players. Which many will think was the wrong approach and that is fair enough. For the best about a decade we had basically a £0 net spend on players. Yet still got cl football and even to the final. People will argue he should have spent more to get us over the line. But that's not how he works. He has a budget and has a set value for players. He won't go over that. Chairmen around europe know that, so we don't get ripped off as much as other clubs. If a player doesn't work out we usually get the majority of our money back.
Now we can start investing in the players (if covid would please f off). I would like to see how levy's strategy would work with money available.
Saying that i would like an investor to come in and buy part to help wipe some of the stadium debt and a naming rights sponsor.
Gazza
Nick Barmby
Same players that bottle it
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
And have been doing it under the last 3 managers.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
If we can’t get rid of ENIC can we at least get rid of Levy for somebody who can put in a structure to ensure we get full value for our money?
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
I think things like today will make him react
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
I am sure there are a few fans who think they could do a better job, are you making a pitch to be our new leader.
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
Unlikely that happens. The list of potential managers is laughable. The staunch pro ENIC posters will point to that if the next managerial appointment doesn’t work out and say “there was no one else better what did you expect?”. If he gets it right he will get all the credit. Really don’t have the appetite to renew my season ticket but it took me close to ten years to finally get my hands on one I feel like I should stick it out for another couple of seasons and hope things improve. Bar relegation, can it really get much worse?
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
I can't dance with most of that to be honest, however i think the number one job is for him to accept that the playing squad need a big overall because we could put GHod in charge of this rabble and get the same happening. A new manager whoever that would be would have the same problems as the last three have had.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
No... I’ve got enough to do running my investment fund. Tottenham Hotspur equity would be a definite sell at the moment.
Mate, there is no need to be churlish . there are no "staunch pro ENIC supporters" on this board, there are people (I'll speak for myself)
- Who don't see another viable option right now, i.e. who has £3B+ of cash they are bored with, that wants to not invest but spend money, with no promise of return?
- ENIC has spent 20 years getting us to the point where the revenue the club generates is good enough to really compete, Covid has delayed that (surely you can admit that), so why not give them the chance (2-3 years) to see if they make it work
- The club, stadium, results (yes, results over a 12 year period) are fudging unrecognizable from what we were (and yes, some one will jump in and say we were a big club 40+ years ago, so were a lot of teams 2 or 3 levels down now), so they deserve credit
- Not believing that change for change sake with no real plan is the right option does make anyone a ENIC supporter.
To your assertion
- I have said Spurs has the ability to pull any manager (outside of say a Pep/Klopp) because we pay well (Jose was £15m/yr), so I'm not going to say there was no one better, and better is hindsight flimflam, absolutely no one would say there was no one better at time of hiring for Harry or Poch, but it turned out they were best for the club in that moment.
Can it get worse? of course it can, and that again is a "be careful what you wish for" = you could get new owners
- And they could dividend out money every year = United does
- They could use Spurs as an asset to borrow against to fund their other businesses
- They could just be disinterested (Levy may make bad decisions but he's focused on Spurs)
- They could do fan appeasement appointments like Lampard, Arteta, OGS
We could also go back to season over in terms of anything to play for by January, this train wreck of a season was still saveable with 7 games to go ..
So yes, we are a long way from the bottom.
metalgear
Nayim
I think the change in levy's attitude started when poch could not get players he wanted and a good compromise was never reached. That part needs to change to, however, Levy hasn't acknowledged the accountability ofthe rest of his executive team and could be a case of the emperor has no clothes
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Sent from my SM-T865 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Yep, I agree. Levy’s whole ‘the results weren’t what they needed to be’ may well have been a line he needed to say to justify the sacking, but if he believed it genuinely, he showed he didn’t understand why Poch was successful, he diagnosed the situation terribly, and his decisions have led to the clearly toxic attitude among our squad, which has resulted in our captain calling them out publicly and our best player wanting to leave.
People have said to me the last couple of weeks that we will be ok under ENIC, and I agree to the extent that we probably will be. I think we need a rebuild, but there’s going to hopefully be so much space on the wage bill this summer that I think we’ll be able to make some good moves, and I think we’ll be fighting for the top 6 again next season at worst. Now we seem like we are paying proper wages, I think we will be attractive to enough players that see Spurs as their ticket to perform and show they’re worthy of a move to one of the elite.
My only problem is, it didn’t need to be this bad. It didn’t need to get this toxic. We are seeing the result of decisions taken for purely financial purposes rather than football purposes, and I think we’ve gone too far in that direction. We could have orientated slightly differently as a club, and not let it get this bad, while still not doing a Leeds.
I think Levy genuinely thought Jose by sheer force of personality and managerial skill would make these players get over the line, because he also diagnosed Jose’s abilities incorrectly. These were average / unproven players made to look like world beaters via Poch’s system and culture. Jose doesn’t work with average players. That Levy lost sight of that is one of the worst decisions he ever made, and I hope it keeps him up at night. There could have been a compromise, there could have been better decisions made, for someone who loved the club and wanted to build something amazing here.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
This is exactly it.
I would have forgiven him earlier transgressions, as he was amidst delivering a world class stadium which, all things being equal, would've delivered cash as fast as the beer surging up those cups. However he absolutely stone cold blew it with this gamble, and for some time, anyone who said as much was dismissed by many.
The fact remains that if ANY manager in the game had earned the right to rebuild again, it was Poch. The whole time of his existence we were in final years at our home, switching homes, late coming back into the new home, and then finally - in APRIL 2019- he finally got the side into the new home he had considerable input in helping design (and before anyone reading questions that, it is a fact, I heard it first hand and had pointed out to me the areas he had consulted on when touring prior to opening).
When Levy and Poch had their frost post-CL Final, Levy should never have then agreed to reconcile and move on. Because quite clearly the Jose Mourinho drums were being beaten in the distance and were getting louder. Then Mourinho was august again first game of the season. No-one with a quarter-clue thought he kept on showing up at ours to "check it out"...I consider it an enormous, enormous not just error of judgement but massive irresponsibility.
So yes, you're right. It is a massive black mark on him. I, for one, can never trust him fully to get a football appt right again, and people should also consider how small the world of football is and how far the whispers spread. The football world was stunned with the treatment of Poch.
Why on earth does anyone think managers would be jumping at the chance to work with Levy?!
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
And again, yes! Much to the chagrin and ridicule of a few here I'm sure. Levy was a fudging fool to have made this appointment. A fool. He wasn't going to change, and neither was Mourinho, however much we tried to convince ourselves.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Agree with everything you’re saying, of course!
I genuinely think Poch was that special. Both as a talented football manager but as a special person, someone who would put aside the idea of money or instant glory at Real Madrid to build something with us. He was that crazy. And yet, we still blew it.
He could have been our SAF. One of the reasons they succeeded over so many years was because of Sky money, and success that bought more money. But it was also their culture. His trust in young players, that floundered at other clubs as soon as they were away from his culture. His decisiveness in selling a good, big name player if it felt like that player was impacting the culture.
We so nearly had all of that, we so nearly has our own one. For a club that under ENIC will never have the most money, we so nearly had the culture that would be our competitive advantage. And we blew it. Levy’s view that Jose, or any manager, is a miracle worker was a terrible miscalculation. Levy’s head being turned, and either forgetting / not realising why Poch was succeeding means I too will never trust a managerial appointment he makes again. (I laugh at the idea he’s going to pitch the progress we’re gonna make under the new guy to Kane, when we’ve just sacked Poch and Jose...) I think he was too enamoured, and too much believed his own hype as someone that is always capable of making the ruthless decision, and doing ‘the right thing for the club’, but he just totally misdiagnosed what the right thing for the club actually was. The toxicity we are seeing now, from the unity we once had...Levy should feel embarrassed.
I would have done whatever it took to keep Poch here. Made it worth his while, whatever he needed. I’ve not heard a single good argument as to why we couldn’t have done that. It seemed like it wasn’t just about money as much as it was Levy actually starting to doubt his capability, which is just fudging crazy to me.