B Teams

[Aldo]

I agree. The one thing that English football has got over all other European countries is a deep and competitive league structure.

That can't be unique to England, surely.
Germany, France, Italy, Holland and Spain each have complex and interconnected league structures.
The German league pyramid for one comprises over 2,000 divisions containing over 33,000 teams.

I've no idea how competitive it is, but in that the pyramid structure is similar to the English system, you'd have to believe it's similar in competitiveness.

 

[braineclipse]

Exactly.
It is not ABOUT one club, but affects ALL clubs.

I have no interest in whether it would benefit spurs or not - its irrelevant.
But over the course of history THE LEAGUE has shaped the club and should continue to do so.

I care about the integrity of the competition as a whole. Nothing more, nothing less.
And clubs have to compete and achieve within that structure

That is one perspective, one I respect and to some degree understand.

It's not the only perspective available.

 

[braineclipse]

That can't be unique to England, surely.
Germany, France, Italy, Holland and Spain each have complex and interconnected league structures.
The German league pyramid for one comprises over 2,000 divisions containing over 33,000 teams.

I've no idea how competitive it is, but in that the pyramid structure is similar to the English system, you'd have to believe it's similar in competitiveness.

According to this wiki page the number of professional leagues in various countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues

Germany - 3
France - 2
Italy - 3/4
Netherlands - 2
Spain - 2

I do think England is in a somewhat special situation here. Although I'm personally hard pressed to say that League Two is the difference maker between English and German football.

-------------------

Another way of looking at it would be attendance I suppose. Another wiki article with all the qualifiers that comes with that implied: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

Average attendance, by division:

Germany: 42,609 - 17,266 - 6,162
England: 35,931 - 17,738 - 7,358 - 4,408
Italy: 24,655 - 5,247 -

Again, England is in a somewhat special situation. Although the number for the German third level is still quite impressive. And that's a league with B-teams.

Armchair Expert seems to know a lot about the German league system, would be cool if he dropped in and could say some words about how that works out there. Again I'm not convinced that entering a handful of development/B-teams into a league like League One would be as disastrous as some here think.

 

[monkeybarry]

That is one perspective, one I respect and to some degree understand.

It's not the only perspective available.

True
But I'm yet to hear a convincing alternative

 

[braineclipse]

True
But I'm yet to hear a convincing alternative

My perspective is that I do care a hell of a lot more about Spurs than about the English leagues in general.

When you say it's not about one club, that's true for you. For me it is about one club though, that's my perspective.

I agree. The one thing that English football has got over all other European countries is a deep and competitive league structure. I don't think that is worth throwing away on a gamble that it might improve the England team. There are things that the FA can do to improve the quality of home grown players but that requires them to tackle the power of the Premier League not give them more.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27340850

Some positive words in here about the proposal from people with a broad background. From Rodgers and Martinez to Kevin Davies.

This is the result of half a year worth of work, talking to 650 people in English football, studying models that clearly work in Spain and Germany. They will have known that a change like this would be controversial and that there would be opposition to it. I don't really think we're in a position to judge how much of a positive impact this could have, that committee is in a much better position to do so.

 

[T-C]

I like the idea.

The way i understand it, the feedback was that there is a pool of english talent that gets lost between ages 18 and 23. That opportunities are limited at an age when players need genuinely competitive football to continue their development.

The Premier League U21 competition isn't fulfilling that need, and many clubs arent happy with the level of coaching their young players receive when on loan.

The B team idea may not go ahead, but has at least raised an issue that is rarely mentioned. Most people have a view that focuses on grassroots football, which clearly needs to be addressed, but wasn't the main focus of this report.

 

[milo]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/27340850

Some positive words in here about the proposal from people with a broad background. From Rodgers and Martinez to Kevin Davies.

This is the result of half a year worth of work, talking to 650 people in English football, studying models that clearly work in Spain and Germany. They will have known that a change like this would be controversial and that there would be opposition to it. I don't really think we're in a position to judge how much of a positive impact this could have, that committee is in a much better position to do so.

I would expect Rodgers and Martinez to be supportive because the likelihood is, their clubs would have a B team. I think that the reason that young players are not getting enough game time is because Premier League clubs have been allowed to hoover up all of the talent. The way to stop that is to put a limit on squad sizes and a limit on academy sizes.

If the FA invested more money in training up more coaches, then there is no reason why players cannot come through at smaller clubs. This would also provide a revenue stream at smaller clubs when their best players get signed by bigger clubs.

This is based on old data (2010) but:

Uefa data shows that there are only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england​

If you look at the ratios of coaches to players it paints are really bleak picture:

Spain 1:17
Italy 1:48
France 1:96
Germany 1:150
Greece 1:135
England 1:812

http://www.soccerbythenumbers.com/2011/02/why-england-loses-not-enough-qualified.html​

That's one coach to every 17 players in Spain compared to one for every 812 in England!

That is where I think that the issue is.

 

[jts1882]

Clearly there is a problem where young British players get lost between ages 18 & 23, but the B league doesn't seem a good solution. It does provide somewhere they can play, but it also perpetuates the cause of the problem.

If we really wanted to solve the problem we'd implement a play them or lose them scheme and stop big clubs stockpiling players by limiting squad sizes without all the age restrictions and limiting or even abolishing the loan system. Clearly this would be fought by the big clubs, but it would mean they only buy players when they are ready. The buying and loaning out system deprives clubs who develop the young players of the chance to play them and also means the big profits go to the richer clubs.

Alternatively reverse the approach to youth football. Instead of big clubs running academies and producing players that will rarely get game time, promote the academies in the lower leagues where the players will get a chance to play. Abolish the PL academies and give the money to lower league clubs and the FA (to hire coaches). Perhaps some clubs could adopt an under 23 strategy in exchange for funding from a central pool paid for by PL clubs instead of running academies. There is also a larger geographical spread in the lower leagues so kids outside big cities would get more chance.

 

[T-C]

Counting the number of UEFA qualified coaches is as bit misleading though.

I've forgotten the exact details, but the method used to convert the previous national qualifications when the UEFA framework was introduced makes the numbers look worse for England.

Also, the syllabuses and time requirements still vary between different countries. Its supposed to be easier/faster to get the same qualifications in Wales or Scotland. Surely quantity over quality isn't the answer?

 

[Neymar]

That can't be unique to England, surely.
Germany, France, Italy, Holland and Spain each have complex and interconnected league structures.
The German league pyramid for one comprises over 2,000 divisions containing over 33,000 teams.

I've no idea how competitive it is, but in that the pyramid structure is similar to the English system, you'd have to believe it's similar in competitiveness.

The english football pyramid is genuinely something special in terms of its fan participation. As braineclipse has posted, the fan figures in england are the best when you look at the whole pyramid. and i'm pretty sure there isn't any sports league system in the world with as many pro teams/players on its books.

also from what i've heard, only germany matches england in terms of net income in the top flight (for player's salaries). but from the 2nd tier downwards, england offers the most competitive wages in football. That means that these lower leagues in england have strong revenue sources which can only be the result of dedicated fan support for these sides.

Having said that, going back to the topic, although i am generally against the "League 3 B team" structure that has been discussed, due to the potential risk to the fabric of the english football pyramid, i still think it may be possible to introduce it in some manner so that it is not a detriment to english football.

the fa have said that there is a lack of compeitive opportunities for 18-21 yr olds (of premier league sides). and therefore its hurting the national side's prospects. i'm not sure this B team structure would help much tbh. if a player is 18-21, and is only good enough to play League 1 standard football, although he may eventually reach the national team, he won't be one of the main players anyway. Wheelchair, phil jones, shaw, oxlade-chamberlain, barkley, sturridge, danny rose

if you look at the worldclass players that england have had over the past decade all of these guys were at least part of the first team sqaud in the premier league at that age (18-21). cole, ferdinand, terry, neville, beckham, scholes, lampard, gerrard, owen, rooney. and if you look at the young players now for england who look like they could be world class one day, they are also part of the first team sqaud for their clubs.

basically, i don't think B team football in the manner that it has been presented at the moment is going to change the standard of the national team much. in all honesty, i dont think the england national team needs much tweaking. they have had some exceptionally good players in recent tournaments. but perhaps have lacked a bit of team cohesion and luck (seeing as they have got knocked out on penalties every other tournament). lets not forget that in football punditry, the narrative is often created after the event. and had lampard's goal stood against germany, the momentum would've been with england and theres no reason why they couldnt have won. if that had happened, you can be sure the likes of alan hansen would've said that the young german players were naive to give up a 2 goal lead so easily, and had they had the experience and grit of previous german teams, this wouldn't have happened. the pundits would probably gone on to compare the likes of ozil, muller, khedira, neuer etc to ballack, beckenbauer, Matthäus, kahn etc and pointed out the "obvious" difference in experience and class.
the same would've applied to england had they won that game, and perhaps won a penalty shootout in their next game. pundits would've praised the team's character in getting so far. however you can clearly see the margins between these outcomes are not so big.

the england national team is fine, and not much needs to be altered imo.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I would expect Rodgers and Martinez to be supportive because the likelihood is, their clubs would have a B team. I think that the reason that young players are not getting enough game time is because Premier League clubs have been allowed to hoover up all of the talent. The way to stop that is to put a limit on squad sizes and a limit on academy sizes.

If the FA invested more money in training up more coaches, then there is no reason why players cannot come through at smaller clubs. This would also provide a revenue stream at smaller clubs when their best players get signed by bigger clubs.

This is based on old data (2010) but:

Uefa data shows that there are only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england​

If you look at the ratios of coaches to players it paints are really bleak picture:

Spain 1:17
Italy 1:48
France 1:96
Germany 1:150
Greece 1:135
England 1:812

http://www.soccerbythenumbers.com/2011/02/why-england-loses-not-enough-qualified.html​

That's one coach to every 17 players in Spain compared to one for every 812 in England!

That is where I think that the issue is.

Completely agree with the points your making in this thread.

We need more coaches at youth level and it also smacks of self interest by the managers of prem teams.

 

[milo]

If the FA is right and that the reason for the lack of English players coming through is a lack of game time and the answer to this is for them to play in the lower leagues, there must be ways of achieving this without ruining the integrity of the league system.

My preference would be to see more players developed by qualified coaches at smaller clubs, near their home but I understand that this is a pipe dream and the Premier League clubs are not going to give up their power over the game.

An alternative maybe to adopt a draft system similar to that used in American sports for college graduates. Premier League clubs could put players into a central pool and clubs from the first, second and conference could pick two or three players a season from the pool. The Premier League clubs would cover the players wages. You might need a quoter of games that the players would be involved in and you might want to build something in so that they can go back and train with their parent club occasionally but I think that it would be workable.

 

[Neymar]

If the FA is right and that the reason for the lack of English players coming through is a lack of game time and the answer to this is for them to play in the lower leagues, there must be ways of achieving this without ruining the integrity of the league system.

My preference would be to see more players developed by qualified coaches at smaller clubs, near their home but I understand that this is a pipe dream and the Premier League clubs are not going to give up their power over the game.

I disagree. although i have no conclusive football or sporting evidence/analogies backing up my following point. i just don't think developing in football is much different to children developing in other sectors (ie. the arts, music, education). children develop best when working with other children who are of top quality. being in an environment of excellence massively aids development. and i think clubs like us, arsenal, man utd, chelsea etc provide this environment of excellence in which kids can flourish. if we put a 13 yr old tom carroll in say his local club's youth team (ie. leyton orient), i wouldn't be too surprised if he didnt turn out as good because he had been training with guys with no potential of a career in pro football.

An alternative maybe to adopt a draft system similar to that used in American sports for college graduates. Premier League clubs could put players into a central pool and clubs from the first, second and conference could pick two or three players a season from the pool. The Premier League clubs would cover the players wages. You might need a quoter of games that the players would be involved in and you might want to build something in so that they can go back and train with their parent club occasionally but I think that it would be workable.

I really dont like this because its too draconian for me. this could mean that a kid who has been born an raised in london would be forced to go to a totally alien environment in north england or wales. also, at the end of the day, the loan system isnt too different to what you have suggested. if a club and the player feels that it would be good for a young player to go on loan to a conference side, this can be arranged anyway in a less draconian manner.

 

[milo]

I disagree. although i have no conclusive football or sporting evidence/analogies backing up my following point. i just don't think developing in football is much different to children developing in other sectors (ie. the arts, music, education). children develop best when working with other children who are of top quality. being in an environment of excellence massively aids development. and i think clubs like us, arsenal, man utd, chelsea etc provide this environment of excellence in which kids can flourish. if we put a 13 yr old tom carroll in say his local club's youth team (ie. leyton orient), i wouldn't be too surprised if he didnt turn out as good because he had been training with guys with no potential of a career in pro football.





I really dont like this because its too draconian for me. this could mean that a kid who has been born an raised in london would be forced to go to a totally alien environment in north england or wales. also, at the end of the day, the loan system isnt too different to what you have suggested. if a club and the player feels that it would be good for a young player to go on loan to a conference side, this can be arranged anyway in a less draconian manner.

Don't we have a problem now with young players being up ended to join Premier League academies? I think that this is particularly a problem when so few academy players make it and their education suffers as a result.

 

[braineclipse]

I would expect Rodgers and Martinez to be supportive because the likelihood is, their clubs would have a B team. I think that the reason that young players are not getting enough game time is because Premier League clubs have been allowed to hoover up all of the talent. The way to stop that is to put a limit on squad sizes and a limit on academy sizes.

If the FA invested more money in training up more coaches, then there is no reason why players cannot come through at smaller clubs. This would also provide a revenue stream at smaller clubs when their best players get signed by bigger clubs.

This is based on old data (2010) but:

Uefa data shows that there are only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england​

If you look at the ratios of coaches to players it paints are really bleak picture:

Spain 1:17
Italy 1:48
France 1:96
Germany 1:150
Greece 1:135
England 1:812

http://www.soccerbythenumbers.com/2011/02/why-england-loses-not-enough-qualified.html​

That's one coach to every 17 players in Spain compared to one for every 812 in England!

That is where I think that the issue is.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but isn't it a bit too simplistic to conclude that this is where "the issue is" as if there's only one issue?

Top clubs hoovering up the top talents might also be a problem, but if you look at Spain for example Barca are quite aggressive when signing young players it seems to me. But they also produce a lot of the top talents for Spain. To me the kind of top class academy that they have at Barca, seem to have recreated at Ajax etc is a result of "centralization". A place where a lot of knowledge, competence, experience, talent and resources are combined. I don't think all those players would have come as far had they been at smaller clubs instead. Dortmund look on their way to creating something similar, Bayern also seem to develop a fairly large number of top players.

What is the English equivalent? United was one, but both for them and Arsenal the development from highly talented to actually developed seems to have stopped up a bit in the last decade. At least that's my impression.

I think part of what is being tried here is to put conditions in place where top teams can successfully invest heavily in youth development and get results. Large sums of money have been invested on players, youth coaches and facilities from what I can remember, at Chelsea, at City, At Liverpool and for ourselves. But the results haven't been all that encouraging I think.

Also you have to ask, as it seems true that there is a shortage of top quality youth coaches. Would a player really be better off at a smaller club or at a bigger club with the resources and reputation to attract several such coaches from England and abroad?

 

[Neymar]

Don't we have a problem now with young players being up ended to join Premier League academies? I think that this is particularly a problem when so few academy players make it and their education suffers as a result.

I think the problem is we are comparing today’s footballing landscape to that of the past. In the past if a player came through the youth ranks and became a first team regular, he would have been described as having “made it”. The problem now is that it is a lot harder to make it in this manner.

In the past, English football was very homogenous. In the sense that domestic English football was played mainly by English players. Therefore the likes of steve perryman or john pratt only had to be better than other domestic players to play for us. However, now if someone like caulker had wanted to play for us he would have had to have been better than everyone in England, Romania, Belgium etc (i know, i know. I’m exaggerating, but you see my point. He is competing against the rest of the world).

It’s my belief that had someone like Caulker been of perryman’s generation, he would have already been one of our key players. Also, had the likes of perryman been around today, who knows? Maybe he would’ve been released before he was 21.

I think the likes of perryman, lee Dixon for arsenal, steve bruce for man utd, steve Clarke for Chelsea etc are still around today. They are just plying their trade in the championship. Ie. The likes of clint hill, Jordan Rhodes, david nugent etc are the modern iteration of those players listed above.

With the influx of money in the premier league, all that has happened is that a new tier of player has arrived. This has meant that only the likes of sol Campbell, ledley king etc have survived in terms of staying at the top level. Perhaps someone like Gascoigne would have survived if he was around today.

The fact is when you graduate from the youth teams of arsenal, Chelsea, us etc, even if you don’t end up playing in the premier league, you can still have a good professional career. I think this is partly down to the excellent training environment that these top academies provide. But if a player does not make it to a first team of a football league side, his chances of a pro football career are very limited. Although I accept that this is also massively down to the fact that the best youth teams had taken in the best kids in the first place.

To summarise, its just a lot harder to make it now for a local lad. Simply because the English league is effectively the world league now. This is not to say the development of young English players is being hampered. Because they can still play in the championship (or other tiers) where the standard is still very competitive and comparable to what the top flight in England was like decades ago.

 

[Neymar]

Top clubs hoovering up the top talents might also be a problem, but if you look at Spain for example Barca are quite aggressive when signing young players it seems to me. But they also produce a lot of the top talents for Spain.

On a related side note, this is why teams like ajax and barcelona have more players graduating into the first team than top english sides. Its not so much to do with the standard of coaching or any other peripheral factors.

Basically in spain, holland and most other european countries, teams are allowed to transfer domestic young children into their youth academies at very young ages from anywhere in the country. and as a result, the top sides in the respective countries cherry pick all the best kids of each generation. therefore its no wonder that these clubs have so many kids who make it to the first team. in england there are fa laws preventing this practice, and therefore the pool of players that clubs like arsenal, liverpool, man utd etc can recruit is limited. ie. arsenal can basically only pick london based kids.

 

[milo]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but isn't it a bit too simplistic to conclude that this is where "the issue is" as if there's only one issue?

Top clubs hoovering up the top talents might also be a problem, but if you look at Spain for example Barca are quite aggressive when signing young players it seems to me. But they also produce a lot of the top talents for Spain. To me the kind of top class academy that they have at Barca, seem to have recreated at Ajax etc is a result of "centralization". A place where a lot of knowledge, competence, experience, talent and resources are combined. I don't think all those players would have come as far had they been at smaller clubs instead. Dortmund look on their way to creating something similar, Bayern also seem to develop a fairly large number of top players.

What is the English equivalent? United was one, but both for them and Arsenal the development from highly talented to actually developed seems to have stopped up a bit in the last decade. At least that's my impression.

I think part of what is being tried here is to put conditions in place where top teams can successfully invest heavily in youth development and get results. Large sums of money have been invested on players, youth coaches and facilities from what I can remember, at Chelsea, at City, At Liverpool and for ourselves. But the results haven't been all that encouraging I think.

Also you have to ask, as it seems true that there is a shortage of top quality youth coaches. Would a player really be better off at a smaller club or at a bigger club with the resources and reputation to attract several such coaches from England and abroad?

You are right. The point I was making was a little simplistic, as much as anything, I was floating ideas but I do have concerns about the effect of the FA's proposals on the lower leagues and further strengthening the power of the top Premier League clubs.

 

[milo]

On a related side note, this is why teams like ajax and barcelona have more players graduating into the first team than top english sides. Its not so much to do with the standard of coaching or any other peripheral factors.

Basically in spain, holland and most other european countries, teams are allowed to transfer domestic young children into their youth academies at very young ages from anywhere in the country. and as a result, the top sides in the respective countries cherry pick all the best kids of each generation. therefore its no wonder that these clubs have so many kids who make it to the first team. in england there are fa laws preventing this practice, and therefore the pool of players that clubs like arsenal, liverpool, man utd etc can recruit is limited. ie. arsenal can basically only pick london based kids.

I don't know how often it happens but I have heard stories of English clubs offering jobs or buying houses for parents in order to get their children within their catchment area.

 

[camspur]

If Premier League clubs can't produce young talent by lending them out to the likes of Barnet, Colchester and Swindon they certainly aren't going to produce any more by having 11 players playing together against Barnet, Colchester and Swindon.