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AVB's System, 4-3-3, and the Transfer Window

D

DMac

Gordon Durie
So I thought I would start a thread about AVB's preferred system that was seen at Porto and how it relates to the abilities of our current players. I've been doing some reading recently about AVB's Porto team, and thought it would be interesting to have a conversation about it. The following is just my interpretation, it may be wrong.

I'm going to focus on the attacking part of the system, but I'll just say I think we have a good defensive core. The defense is supposed to play a high line which we have been doing this season, and I think Vertonghen, Kaboul, and Caulker are well suited to it, and Lloris is of course the perfect keeper.

I think the interesting thing about AVB's system is that it seems like every player has an exact role, which probably explains why he is picky about transfer targets. At Chelsea he tried to implement nearly the exact same system, in some instances shoehorning players into the tactical roles that they may not have been perfectly suited to. When he came here, he chose to keep the 442/4231 formation we were playing last season, probably because he felt we didn't have the players yet to make the transition.

Anyway, at Porto the front 6 looked like this:

------------Fernando----------------
-----Guarin----------Moutinho-------
--Hulk------Falcao-------Varela---

At Chelsea the front line instead was Sturridge---Torres---Mata, and the midfield was Romeu/Mikel in place of Fernando, Ramires in place of Guarin/Belluschi, and Lampard/Miereles in place of Moutinho.

In AVB's system the defensive midfield player sits deep, as the CB's move wider to support the fullbacks. There is also a clear difference between what happens on the right side of the pitch and the left side. On the right side there is a left footed forward (Hulk/Sturridge) who cuts inside as the fullback moves forward on the overlap. Also the right sided central midfielder (Guarin/Bellushi/Ramires), moves into the space vacated by the winger, which would force the opposition defender to stay wide and so create more room in the center for the right forward and striker. If the winger (Hulk) stayed wide, the midfielder (Guarin/Ramires) would make a run between the opposing left back and central defender. So the attacking movement of this midfielder depends on what the right forward does.

Then on the left side is a different type of wide forward - at Chelsea Mata, who drifted inside between the lines as a playmaker, and Varela at Porto, who was more of a traditional wide forward/winger. Perreira and Cole both overlapped the wide forward as they cut inside.

In AVB's system there is also a central midfielder capable of controlling the tempo of the game (Moutinho at Porto), and AVB was lacking this player at Chelsea as well as with us. At Chelsea he played Lampard/Meireles in this role instead, while with us he changed the formation to only have 2 players in central midfield. The idea behind the whole system is to control the game in the other team's half, and to pick the right pass at the right time. So obviously that requires exceptional movement from the attacking players as well as this Moutinho kind of player who can control the tempo.

Finally the striker in AVB's system is a 'poacher' not a striker who holds the ball up and drops deep (aka not Adebayor or Berbatov). So the striker should be quick off the mark, be able to make clever movements, and be a lethal finisher. Obviously I'm pretty much describing Falcao but I also think it sounds a lot like Gary Lineker, though Falcao is more of a profilic header than Lineker was. Anyway I don't think AVB wants his strikers acting like number 10's, he wants a striker to be a #9, which probably explains why he preferred Defoe to Adebayor. Even though Defoe's movements in the box have been lacking at times this season, and of course he's not a striker that's going to score headed goals (neither does Ade though).

So the big question is probably how this system can come into effect for our team. Clearly we need to sign a few players - most importantly a striker and a midfielder. Thinking more about it I can see why AVB wouldn't have wanted some of the players we bought last summer. Dembele first, doesn't really fit into any of the roles in that 4-3-3 formation. He's too left footed to play in the Ramires/Guarin position on the right side of central midfield, and he can't control the game like Moutinho can. Though I think he's a fantastic player you could say he's not really what we needed if we wanted to play AVB's style.

I think to play AVB's system well we would need quite a few players in key positions. I'm also kind of ignoring the possibility that this 4-3-3 "system" can be modified to suit our current players - I'm sure it can - though I'm talking about specifically what we would need to emulate what he had at Porto.
 
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Going by your description, which matches with the limited info i have on his porto sides, i think Sandro and Bale are the only perfect fits here really (outside of gk/defence)

Of our transfer targets I think Leandro fits the poacher role quite well, going by the youtube videos i have seen whilst two other players who we have been heavily linked to (Moutinho and Willian) would also fit in very well but it's not likely we'll get either of those this coming window.

Had AVB got his targets i have little doubt it is the system we'd see here :

--------------Sandro
------Dembele Moutinho
---Bale-----Leandro---Willian

So i believe it is the direction we are moving in, even if we haven't particularly played that way much during the season OR have the perfect set of attacking players for it just yet.

Will be interesting to see what direction we go in the summer
 
Very interesting read D and cudos to you for doing homework. And Bill I agree with the sandro/Bale comment.

It all depends on whether we can get expensive players off the books I guess depending on what we can do.....we still have Bentley dont we....

If we are just giving up on Ade then we have a problem if their are no early/easy takers. I dont think we need Ade kicking around the club if we give up on him.

I wonder what you both think whether Andros Townsend and Danny Rose fit the 4-3-3. I think personally they would. Thats 2 back to fit it imo

I wonder why Ade never just poaches anymore but lets say the worst happens and we dont sign a striker(please no) then Ade & Defoe are different options for the lone forward role - one targ man other players can feed from - one a goal poacher.

I would like Moutinho obviously and I really like the look of Isco (Malaga) who I think would be decent in this system but they are two very difficult targets I would not expect us to be able to pull off....we will see.

I think Huddlestone can play the role of playmaker in a 4-3-3 but I dunno Avb's thoughts on this obviously.

Striker wise I havent seen much of Damaio - Negredo could be possible or Higuain if I dream hard enough.

Think I read the other day that Hulk is not enjoying Russia and was linked with hooking up with Avb again.......that would be good fit.

I just worry that we wont see any sig money spent unless our star player gets sold - and if that happens AVB has to make some astute signings and not be wasteful.

Either way I am pleased with AVB in his first season regardless of where we finish (course I want top 4)

Great read D and I like you am fascinated to see what happens/what avb does signing wise this summer and how we start next season.
 
Sandro isn't a perfect fit unfortunately (imo), you want a playmaker type or at least a very good passer in that deep role. Busquets at Barcelona is a very good example, when AVB tried it at Chelsea he seemed to prefer Romeu even though young and new to the league. Defensively Sandro is obviously fantastic, but I don't think that role fits him when we attack.
 
I too am a bit bored with the constant references to 4-3-3... for one thing, it is barely different to 4-2-3-1! For me the only real difference in possession is that there is a little bit more fluidity - rather than having a clear-cut No.10, two of the three central midfielders will take it in turns to move into more advanced positions (ala Holtby and Dembele recently). Unless someone can enlighten me otherwise, it seems like a minor tweak rather than a completely different system.
 
Also, what makes people think that 4-3-3 is AVB's preferred formation? He's used it once at Porto, a team that has played 4-3-3 throughout the club for years before AVB came and after he left and whose players were ideally suited to it. I know AVB tried to implement it at Chelsea as well, but I think his subsequent experience at Chelsea showed him that as a manager of a club, its not always about trying to rip up what was there before to implement your own ideas, but especially at a club that doesn't have an endless budget like at Spurs, its about looking at what you have got and devising a plan or solution to get the best out of the resources at your disposal.

Changing to 4-3-3 would take quite a lot of restructuring of our first team squad so i don't honestly think its a given. I think like some have said there are two scenarios:

1) Bale stays. In this case we won't move to 4-3-3 as Bale likes playing the no. 10 role and it is more likely we will build a team around him as our best player.
2) Bale goes, leaving us free to build a new team and new formation and a shed load of dough in order to do this - its only in this scenario that I could see a move to 4-3-3. This would also probably mean Lennon is toast to be honest and it would lead to another major squad overhaul.
 
elltrev said:
I too am a bit bored with the constant references to 4-3-3... for one thing, it is barely different to 4-2-3-1! For me the only real difference in possession is that there is a little bit more fluidity - rather than having a clear-cut No.10, two of the three central midfielders will take it in turns to move into more advanced positions (ala Holtby and Dembele recently). Unless someone can enlighten me otherwise, it seems like a minor tweak rather than a completely different system.
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There isn't a massive difference and could easily be seen as a tweak I think, there is some difference though.

In a 4-2-3-1 the central (deep) duo can complement each other with one being more limited technically leaving the playmaking to the other player and one of them can be somewhat average defensively. The lone deep player in a 4-3-3 really should be able to do a bit of everything.

The player in the hole in a 4-2-3-1 can get further forward supporting a striker and have less defensive responsibility, there's more room for a "classic number 10" who will be a bit lazy defensively because of the two deep players. In a 4-3-3 you really need both of those central midfielder to be dependable defensively and have loads of stamina, although being a brilliant ball winner isn't that necessary I suppose.

Generally in a 4-3-3 the wingers are given more freedom to stay forward and be ready for counter attacks while in 4-2-3-1 the wingers will often have more of a defensive responsibility. Although that obviously depends on a lot more than the formation and could be the other way around depending on game dynamics.
 
NWND said:
Also, what makes people think that 4-3-3 is AVB's preferred formation? He's used it once at Porto, a team that has played 4-3-3 throughout the club for years before AVB came and after he left and whose players were ideally suited to it. I know AVB tried to implement it at Chelsea as well, but I think his subsequent experience at Chelsea showed him that as a manager of a club, its not always about trying to rip up what was there before to implement your own ideas, but especially at a club that doesn't have an endless budget like at Spurs, its about looking at what you have got and devising a plan or solution to get the best out of the resources at your disposal.

Changing to 4-3-3 would take quite a lot of restructuring of our first team squad so i don't honestly think its a given. I think like some have said there are two scenarios:

1) Bale stays. In this case we won't move to 4-3-3 as Bale likes playing the no. 10 role and it is more likely we will build a team around him as our best player.
2) Bale goes, leaving us free to build a new team and new formation and a shed load of dough in order to do this - its only in this scenario that I could see a move to 4-3-3. This would also probably mean Lennon is toast to be honest and it would lead to another major squad overhaul.
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But again, is 4-3-3 really so different from 4-2-3-1? So much so that it would require us to build a new team, and that Lennon would be "toast"?

On paper the only difference between the two in terms of structure is that the No.10 moves deeper to join the other two central midfielders. Now in fairness I do think that does mean that the remaining three attacking players do have a bit more onus on them to move into the space that the No.10 normally operates in (ala Messi as a 'false nine' or Silva etc as a 'wide playmaker'), but not to the extent that some people are making out - surely all three central midfielders don't permanently stay as deep as they would if there were only two of them; surely at least two of them take it in turns to move into the space that a No.10 operates in?
 
elltrev said:
But again, is 4-3-3 really so different from 4-2-3-1? So much so that it would require us to build a new team, and that Lennon would be "toast"?

On paper the only difference between the two in terms of structure is that the No.10 moves deeper to join the other two central midfielders. Now in fairness I do think that does mean that the remaining three attacking players do have a bit more onus on them to move into the space that the No.10 normally operates in (ala Messi as a 'false nine' or Silva etc as a 'wide playmaker'), but not to the extent that some people are making out - surely all three central midfielders don't permanently stay as deep as they would if there were only two of them; surely at least two of them take it in turns to move into the space that a No.10 operates in?
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Sure, and AVB has changed our 4-2-3-1 into a 4-3-3 quite fluently recently. Many people seemingly didn't even notice it happening so obviously not a massive difference.

Of course two of the central midfielders will take turns shifting forward when attacking and sometimes both of them will push on. But I think there are other differences (like I listed above).

I don't think Lennon would be toast if we moved to a 4-3-3 personally. It wouldn't require us to build a new team either, seeing as we have already played that formation :)
 
4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 are different in theory in what kind of midfielders you use, but they're both very similar to 4-5-1 when defending.

4-2-3-1.gif


4-3-3.gif
 
elltrev said:
But again, is 4-3-3 really so different from 4-2-3-1? So much so that it would require us to build a new team, and that Lennon would be "toast"?

On paper the only difference between the two in terms of structure is that the No.10 moves deeper to join the other two central midfielders. Now in fairness I do think that does mean that the remaining three attacking players do have a bit more onus on them to move into the space that the No.10 normally operates in (ala Messi as a 'false nine' or Silva etc as a 'wide playmaker'), but not to the extent that some people are making out - surely all three central midfielders don't permanently stay as deep as they would if there were only two of them; surely at least two of them take it in turns to move into the space that a No.10 operates in?
Click to expand...

The roles of each player is different between either formation. With 4-3-3 you usually want 'wingers' who can cut inside more and score, so Bale would go to the right side (as he did against City when we switched to 4-3-3). Braineclipse mentions some other differences, the point that I was making though wasn't about the formation in particular it's more about the specific tactics. The formation itself isn't the tactic, it's the vessel for the tactics that AVB wants to use. I'm pretty sure he intends to make that switch based on what I've seen so far because we've been playing in the same slow buildup, high pressing style that his last 2 teams did.
 
DMac said:
According to the fella JJetset, AVB isn't interested in him. Idk if that's true or not but I don't have much else to go on.
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Interesting, know we were after him in the Harry days, maybe he was purely a Harry target.

Quick, can score, might be reasonable, although probably stupid wages.
 
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