Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

What is it about Di Canio that makes people believe in his abilities? He's done nothing. He's proven nothing. He's failed and like indian says the stories coming out of Sunderland about his time there are shocking. I wouldn't want him in any job at Spurs.

I just don't get it. There are loads of managers that have proven something, that have a record of getting along with players, making teams work, getting results. Both well known managers in England and managers in the category Pochetino was in before he came to England. Even with the kindest interpretation of what went on at Sunderland I can think of his record is non-existing compared to some of the others.

Even just mentioning his name in the AVB thread makes me slightly uneasy.

I just think he's got something and will prove it if backed to the extent that he needs to be. And by that I mean, he needs to be brought into a club with a purpose and allowed to carry it through. Sunderland behaved like a bunch of amateurs by bringing someone in to change the culture of the club (unless they didn't bring him in for that, and just wanted a different voice in order to reverse the downward spiral of O'Neil, which is again amateurish) and then kicking him out at the first sign of trouble. He'd just signed 14 new players and now they have allowed themselves to be in a situation where the 'old guard' wants an academy coach to be placed in charge of the first team. Well done Sunderland.

Of course there would be trouble when he's brought in to change the methods. Of course some of the old guard wouldn't like it. I just don't buy the easy narrative that he was a bit of a nutcase and therefore the players wouldn't work for him. Some of his signings have actually come out and said the discipline was tough but it's fine because they are professionals. If people mean 'won't work with top footballers' when referring to Di Canio's methods they actually mean 'Lee Cattermole, John O Shea and Phil Bardsley' then I will agree.

He was always going to have a bad time adjusting 14 new signings into a squad lacking confidence and changing the methods and the style of play. AVB didn't get off to a great start and we had a much better team than Sunderland. So of course it was going to be difficult, but Sunderland's players seized on their first opportunity to kick up a fuss and Sunderland's idiot board relented just like that. They should go down this year.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

no, just no. I like him, I like his passion, but his methods will not work with top players. Some of the stories coming out of Sunderland are shocking.

Which stories exactly? Genuine question as I haven't heard too many specifics but would like to be brought up to date.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Which stories exactly? Genuine question as I haven't heard too many specifics but would like to be brought up to date.

These were mentioned on Second Captains (football podcast):

Refused to let players interact at all with non-playing club staff on matchdays. No speaking, no handshakes. Imagine the awkward moments. Refused to let the medical staff be a part of the team photo for the first time in decades for no apparent reason, also didn't even listen to their opinion until all scans and checks had been sent to some Italian clinic/hospital and their opinion had been presented. Delayed Fletcher's return to full first team training by a week after Di Canio walked by and saw Fletcher smile during a gym session with fitness staff. What he said in the press about his players was apparently just the tip of the iceberg. He would shout, verbally abuse and insult his players on a very regular basis.

If there was method to his madness it seemed largely overshadowed by the madness imo.

I just think he's got something and will prove it if backed to the extent that he needs to be. And by that I mean, he needs to be brought into a club with a purpose and allowed to carry it through. Sunderland behaved like a bunch of amateurs by bringing someone in to change the culture of the club (unless they didn't bring him in for that, and just wanted a different voice in order to reverse the downward spiral of O'Neil, which is again amateurish) and then kicking him out at the first sign of trouble. He'd just signed 14 new players and now they have allowed themselves to be in a situation where the 'old guard' wants an academy coach to be placed in charge of the first team. Well done Sunderland.

Of course there would be trouble when he's brought in to change the methods. Of course some of the old guard wouldn't like it. I just don't buy the easy narrative that he was a bit of a nutcase and therefore the players wouldn't work for him. Some of his signings have actually come out and said the discipline was tough but it's fine because they are professionals. If people mean 'won't work with top footballers' when referring to Di Canio's methods they actually mean 'Lee Cattermole, John O Shea and Phil Bardsley' then I will agree.

He was always going to have a bad time adjusting 14 new signings into a squad lacking confidence and changing the methods and the style of play. AVB didn't get off to a great start and we had a much better team than Sunderland. So of course it was going to be difficult, but Sunderland's players seized on their first opportunity to kick up a fuss and Sunderland's idiot board relented just like that. They should go down this year.

Sunderland hired a DoF and chief scout this summer that have reportedly been in charge of the squad overhaul.

Hiring him in the first place seems like a poor decision for sure, compared to that firing him seems like decision of the year. Not saying that Sunderland are without blame, but in the position they were in this season I don't see how they had a choice.

Methods? I can't think of a single manager succeeding whilst continuously undermining his players in the way Di Canio did. Even some of the stricter managers like Ferguson and Mourinho who somewhat regularly have fallen out with high profile individual players have just about always backed most of their squad in public. They deflect and lie instead of piling more pressure on the players, they place the focus on other teams and themselves over highlighting poor individual performances. In short, they're nothing like Di Canio.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

BoL I'm usually on board with the majority of what you say, but DiCanio, no way!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Ok...from some of those stories it does sound a bit needlessly over the top, although usually I would defend different methods because just because they're different it doesn't mean they won't work on the right players.

But I'm happy to disregard my Di Canio fandom - I'm all aboard the Pochettino train when AVB does leave in 27 years time.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

These were mentioned on Second Captains (football podcast):

Refused to let players interact at all with non-playing club staff on matchdays. No speaking, no handshakes. Imagine the awkward moments. Refused to let the medical staff be a part of the team photo for the first time in decades for no apparent reason, also didn't even listen to their opinion until all scans and checks had been sent to some Italian clinic/hospital and their opinion had been presented. Delayed Fletcher's return to full first team training by a week after Di Canio walked by and saw Fletcher smile during a gym session with fitness staff. What he said in the press about his players was apparently just the tip of the iceberg. He would shout, verbally abuse and insult his players on a very regular basis.

If there was method to his madness it seemed largely overshadowed by the madness imo.



Sunderland hired a DoF and chief scout this summer that have reportedly been in charge of the squad overhaul.

Hiring him in the first place seems like a poor decision for sure, compared to that firing him seems like decision of the year. Not saying that Sunderland are without blame, but in the position they were in this season I don't see how they had a choice.

Methods? I can't think of a single manager succeeding whilst continuously undermining his players in the way Di Canio did. Even some of the stricter managers like Ferguson and Mourinho who somewhat regularly have fallen out with high profile individual players have just about always backed most of their squad in public. They deflect and lie instead of piling more pressure on the players, they place the focus on other teams and themselves over highlighting poor individual performances. In short, they're nothing like Di Canio.

On the particular point about public criticism, I really don't think this is as much of an issue as people like to make out. Every single time a manager makes a public criticism of a player, you get loads of people and pundits saying 'Ooooh can't do that! Poor man management!' as if this highly paid and uber confident professional footballer is suddenly going to turn in to a quivering wreck or decide to play poorly and harm his own career because his boss has decided to make a genuine and honest criticism in public. I don't think it really matters.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

These were mentioned on Second Captains (football podcast):

Refused to let players interact at all with non-playing club staff on matchdays. No speaking, no handshakes. Imagine the awkward moments. Refused to let the medical staff be a part of the team photo for the first time in decades for no apparent reason, also didn't even listen to their opinion until all scans and checks had been sent to some Italian clinic/hospital and their opinion had been presented. Delayed Fletcher's return to full first team training by a week after Di Canio walked by and saw Fletcher smile during a gym session with fitness staff. What he said in the press about his players was apparently just the tip of the iceberg. He would shout, verbally abuse and insult his players on a very regular basis.

If there was method to his madness it seemed largely overshadowed by the madness imo.



Sunderland hired a DoF and chief scout this summer that have reportedly been in charge of the squad overhaul.

Hiring him in the first place seems like a poor decision for sure, compared to that firing him seems like decision of the year. Not saying that Sunderland are without blame, but in the position they were in this season I don't see how they had a choice.

Methods? I can't think of a single manager succeeding whilst continuously undermining his players in the way Di Canio did. Even some of the stricter managers like Ferguson and Mourinho who somewhat regularly have fallen out with high profile individual players have just about always backed most of their squad in public. They deflect and lie instead of piling more pressure on the players, they place the focus on other teams and themselves over highlighting poor individual performances. In short, they're nothing like Di Canio.

Worth listening to insights form within Sundeland about him

Here the link to exact bit on that podcast https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/second-captains-football-24-09#t=26:00

Pretty funny that 6 of the 14 players they brought in asked to go on loan after experiencing what it was like under di canio.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Ok...from some of those stories it does sound a bit needlessly over the top, although usually I would defend different methods because just because they're different it doesn't mean they won't work on the right players.

But I'm happy to disregard my Di Canio fandom - I'm all aboard the Pochettino train when AVB does leave in 27 years time.

Surely part of being a good manager surely is identifying which method works with the players in your squad. Di Canio's methods might have worked in the perfect setting for a manager like him, but how likely is that situation to present itself?

Pochetino seems promising for sure. Been impressed with him at Southampton, and of course the Bielsa link is always a good sign

On the particular point about public criticism, I really don't think this is as much of an issue as people like to make out. Every single time a manager makes a public criticism of a player, you get loads of people and pundits saying 'Ooooh can't do that! Poor man management!' as if this highly paid and uber confident professional footballer is suddenly going to turn in to a quivering wreck or decide to play poorly and harm his own career because his boss has decided to make a genuine and honest criticism in public. I don't think it really matters.

Up to a point I agree with you. But when it's week in week out, when the blame is always on the players and that's combined with scathing criticism in the dressing room too I think it can have a severely negative effect.

You do see genuine and honest criticisms from good managers towards some players in public, but I don't think that describes what Di Canio did particularly well. And from those good managers it's not relentless and it's mixed with positive feedback for what players have done well and normally a fair bit of positive feedback even when they're not performing at their best to help build their confidence.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Worth listening to insights form within Sundeland about him

Here the link to exact bit on that podcast https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptains-it-com/second-captains-football-24-09#t=26:00

Pretty funny that 6 of the 14 players they brought in asked to go on loan after experiencing what it was like under di canio.

It was a very good part of their show I thought, they did their utmost to have one of them try to defend Di Canio well beyond what should be expected and (for me) well beyond reason. I'm quite sure it was for the sake of argument, and not his actual opinion. In a way those attempts highlighted how difficult Di Canio had become to defend because of the lengths that host had to stretch to to try to defend Di Canio.

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

For me, the perfect scenario is that AVB stays for a long time. Proves his ability by putting plently of silverware in the cabinets and becomes one of our celebrated Managers. I think he has something to prove with regards to the way he was treated by the Chavs, and what better way than to take a "nearly" team, to the top.

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

With regards to the other discussion, I like Pochettino - he seems like he knows what he's doing and it's nice to see Southampton going well, however, DiCanio is a complete fruit loop and I would never let him near our boys and "home" dugout at the Lane

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Surely part of being a good manager surely is identifying which method works with the players in your squad. Di Canio's methods might have worked in the perfect setting for a manager like him, but how likely is that situation to present itself?

Pochetino seems promising for sure. Been impressed with him at Southampton, and of course the Bielsa link is always a good sign



Up to a point I agree with you. But when it's week in week out, when the blame is always on the players and that's combined with scathing criticism in the dressing room too I think it can have a severely negative effect.

You do see genuine and honest criticisms from good managers towards some players in public, but I don't think that describes what Di Canio did particularly well. And from those good managers it's not relentless and it's mixed with positive feedback for what players have done well and normally a fair bit of positive feedback even when they're not performing at their best to help build their confidence.

I think the length to which he criticised players in public was exagerrated. I mean, after the Palace defeat he said he couldn't be angry at O'Shea for his mistake because O'Shea admitted himself it was rubbish in the dressing room. That's fair enough, and it wasn't like he was calling them all **** every week.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

I think the length to which he criticised players in public was exagerrated. I mean, after the Palace defeat he said he couldn't be angry at O'Shea for his mistake because O'Shea admitted himself it was rubbish in the dressing room. That's fair enough, and it wasn't like he was calling them all **** every week.

Perhaps somewhat exaggerated, I'm not sure. Would you say that any managers in the PL or otherwise criticize their players in public more than, or as much as, Di Canio did?

The O'Shea example isn't a great one as he's essentially saying that O'Shea was rubbish by relaying what O'Shea admitted to in the dressing room. Most managers would realize that when one of their more experienced players just made a mistake and got sent off most likely costing them a point or more in the process they realize that they've made a mistake.

Since this is the AVB thread after all, can anyone see AVB handling that situation in the same way? Going public with what was said in the dressing room and relaying that a player "admitting" to being rubbish in a situation/game? I would be very surprised if that happened myself.

Hopefully this will remain hypothetical and AVB will remain in charge of Spurs though. All good signs so far

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Perhaps somewhat exaggerated, I'm not sure. Would you say that any managers in the PL or otherwise criticize their players in public more than, or as much as, Di Canio did?

The O'Shea example isn't a great one as he's essentially saying that O'Shea was rubbish by relaying what O'Shea admitted to in the dressing room. Most managers would realize that when one of their more experienced players just made a mistake and got sent off most likely costing them a point or more in the process they realize that they've made a mistake.

Since this is the AVB thread after all, can anyone see AVB handling that situation in the same way? Going public with what was said in the dressing room and relaying that a player "admitting" to being rubbish in a situation/game? I would be very surprised if that happened myself.

Hopefully this will remain hypothetical and AVB will remain in charge of Spurs though. All good signs so far

I can't imagine AVB would do that but he has a very different style. To be fair I think AVB handles the press with us like a pro with much more experience than he has. He really is excellent. But again, I don't think it's a case of 'public criticism = bad, misdirection to the press = good'. Both can have good implications I would think.

The O'Shea thing, I really don't think this matters. If it ****es O'Shea off a bit, so what? Really? Is he never, ever going to talk to Di Canio again? Never play for him again (if PDC was still manager of course?). Is he so weak minded than he will slip and allow below average players to score easy goals against him in every game because PDC decided not to bother with the platitudes and called a spade a spade? He ****ed up, everyone knows it.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

I can't imagine AVB would do that but he has a very different style. To be fair I think AVB handles the press with us like a pro with much more experience than he has. He really is excellent. But again, I don't think it's a case of 'public criticism = bad, misdirection to the press = good'. Both can have good implications I would think.

The O'Shea thing, I really don't think this matters. If it ****es O'Shea off a bit, so what? Really? Is he never, ever going to talk to Di Canio again? Never play for him again (if PDC was still manager of course?). Is he so weak minded than he will slip and allow below average players to score easy goals against him in every game because PDC decided not to bother with the platitudes and called a spade a spade? He ****ed up, everyone knows it.

Yeah, once again this happening once or twice is most likely not an issue. Like I said on the previous page it's about him piling on with the criticism.

Just because O'Shea won't have the reaction you propose, a reaction that surely would be out of order doesn't mean that something like this doesn't have a negative effect.

We know all to well how much confidence matters for footballers, even at this level. A poor run of form and a previously good side can look completely disjointed, a good goalscorer can look like Raziak on a pogo stick. A good run and all of a sudden an average team is capable of beating just about anyone, an in form striker just can't stop scoring. This is true for players all over the pitch imo, although probably much more visible for strikers and goalkeepers. Managing the confidence, and in part egos, of the footballers is vital for any manager.

Constantly being overly critical, as he has been described as being, surely won't do their confidence any good. Perhaps for a week or two, or a month or two, they will keep pushing on to improve. But if the credit and rewards aren't there, when the criticism just keeps coming I don't think that's a good environment to bring the best out of athletes that are in need of confidence to perform. Every one of these instances are just individual examples that on their own wouldn't have done much, but when placed in a bigger picture I think it was a real problem for Sunderland, a real weakness in Di Canio's approach to management. An approach that I don't think may successful managers take.

 

[onlyme]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Someone should do a poll about how long AVB will stay at Spurs. I just hope he leaves a legacy. I am confident he will win us trophies. I personally will be amazed if he is here in 2015.
He is a young man in a hurry.

 

[milo]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Someone should do a poll about how long AVB will stay at Spurs.. I just hope he leaves a legacy. I am confident he will win us trophies. I personally will be amazed if he is here in 2015.
He is a young man in a hurry.

How many managers leave a legacy?

 

[onlyme]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

How many managers leave a legacy?

Great ones do.

 

[milo]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Great ones do.

I'd argue that many great managers don't leave a legacy because they stay on too long. For example Ferguson hasn't left much of a legacy for his successor and Clough left a club in ruins?

I also think that a manager has to stay around to be considered great and I am not sure that AVB will do that with us.

I'd be happy if he won stuff whilst he is here and we choose a good replacement when he leaves.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: AVB - Making Tottenham His Own

Yeah, once again this happening once or twice is most likely not an issue. Like I said on the previous page it's about him piling on with the criticism.

Just because O'Shea won't have the reaction you propose, a reaction that surely would be out of order doesn't mean that something like this doesn't have a negative effect.

We know all to well how much confidence matters for footballers, even at this level. A poor run of form and a previously good side can look completely disjointed, a good goalscorer can look like Raziak on a pogo stick. A good run and all of a sudden an average team is capable of beating just about anyone, an in form striker just can't stop scoring. This is true for players all over the pitch imo, although probably much more visible for strikers and goalkeepers. Managing the confidence, and in part egos, of the footballers is vital for any manager.

Constantly being overly critical, as he has been described as being, surely won't do their confidence any good. Perhaps for a week or two, or a month or two, they will keep pushing on to improve. But if the credit and rewards aren't there, when the criticism just keeps coming I don't think that's a good environment to bring the best out of athletes that are in need of confidence to perform. Every one of these instances are just individual examples that on their own wouldn't have done much, but when placed in a bigger picture I think it was a real problem for Sunderland, a real weakness in Di Canio's approach to management. An approach that I don't think may successful managers take.

What examples are there of him being constantly over critical? And I mean to honest players working hard and trying their best. There's a lot of examples of him criticising the culture at the club, the Bardsleys, the Bramble's, and I think most people would say that's warranted. I can't remember too much outright criticism of players genuinely trying their best. Even the O'Shea thing, he didn't actually criticise him, he said he couldn't because he had already owned up to it. And he reportedly liked the likes of OShea and Colback anyway because they knuckled down under him.