Quacks & Pseudoscience

[milo]

I didn't mean that at all. Typical pro vaxxers attributing statements to me. I think someone has already accused me of being in it for the money and promoting an autism "cure".

Apologies. I am not trying to attribute statements to you but instead trying to find the case that you are referring. None of this would happen if you provide links to evidence to support your claims.

I haven't seen anyone accuse you of taking an anti-vaccine stance for profit. This seems like a straw man argument to deflect the discussion away from scrutiny of you unsupported claim.

 

[milo]

DTaP is, of course, by far the most dangerous. I have lost count of the number of pictures of dead babies I have seen after the DTaP. (I think another poster (giter?) pointed this out but you mocked him/her too

Men ACWY is second most dangerous. Destroying perfectly healthy teenagers lives. But apparently, it is just a "coincidence" and that is "when autism is first apparent"

Then flu (probably seriously under reported because older people's deaths are not attributed)

And MMR limps as the fourth most dangerous vaccine.

Do you have any links to where I can read about this? I'd be particularly interested in seeing the result of double blind trials where the vaccine has been shown to cause harm. If you could point me towards such evidence and it provide to be robust, I would be in complete agreement with you on that instance.

 

[JPBB]

In the least surprising news of the day…

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program removed the details of their cases from their website. And UK government quite simply lies saying it does not keep any records of the type of vaccine or the damage in vaccine damage cases.

So I rely on the hundreds of parents I have spoken to who say their babies and kids have been damaged and even killed by vaccines. These are the people you call stupid and liars. That makes them even more sad (perhaps sadder is more correct).

 

[scaramanga]

In the least surprising news of the day…

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program removed the details of their cases from their website. And UK government quite simply lies saying it does not keep any records of the type of vaccine or the damage in vaccine damage cases.

So I rely on the hundreds of parents I have spoken to who say their babies and kids have been damaged and even killed by vaccines. These are the people you call stupid and liars. That makes them even more sad (perhaps sadder is more correct).

The results of court proceedings are public in the UK aren't they? I know you have to pay for the fully transcribed events if it wasn't considered beneficial to public knowledge at the time, but the results are free.

If there were thousands of these cases, it should be fairly easy to find at least one. I'd hazard a guess that if the UK courts awarded damages to someone hurt or killed by a vaccination program it would have been transcribed.

 

[JPBB]

If there were thousands of these cases, it should be fairly easy to find at least one. I'd hazard a guess that if the UK courts awarded damages to someone hurt or killed by a vaccination program it would have been transcribed.

I don't know. You're the scientist. I would have thought that part of the any settlement would include a NDA. GHod forbid that anyone could know the details of the Government payments for vaccine damage. FOI requests are met with the simple response that they do not hold the data. Why should they? It is not helpful to them.

I rely on the stories, videos and pictures of the lying, stupid, parents of vaccine damaged kids.

On a separate point, I wonder if we need a timeout to work out what we are arguing about here. I certainly don't expect to or want to change your opinion. I was like you, blindly pro vaccine, until I was touched by vaccine damage (you say I am lying but it is what I believe) and the disgusting response of the medical and pharma industry to it. I say vaccine damage happens a lot. You deny this.

As someone else once said on here, you might only change if you are touched by it. I hope that never happens.

 

[milo]

@JPBB - before we move on too far from Rotarix, I think that it would be good to wrap up what we have covered and draw some conclusions.

Do you agree that the trials showed that the vaccine was significantly more effective than placebo in preventing gastro-enteritis?

That there was not a significant difference in the mortality rate between the three groups in the trial?

That claims of other harm from the vaccine have been unsupported and that the trials showed no significant difference between the three groups?

 

[scaramanga]

In the least surprising news of the day…

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program removed the details of their cases from their website.

Were they ever on there? I'm not surprised if they have removed the details - I've seen the details of a number of compensation cases and they are loooooooooooonng. There's nearly 3,600 cases been brought from 2006-2015 - that would be a fairly extreme load to take.

Fortunately though, they are a public entity and have to operate under the same transparency as most other public bodies. They have a quick fact sheet (I know you're allergic to facts - maybe we can find a vaccine?) that will show you the headline data from 2006-2015. If you're really interested, they have a "data warehouse" that will tell you even more: https://datawarehouse.hrsa.gov/

They show that between Jan 2006 and Dec 2014 there were over 2.5B vaccination doses distributed in the US. Of those, nearly 3,600 took it upon themselves to lodge a claim and over 2,200 of those had a claim that was worthy of being upheld by a court.

So that means that, in the US, for every vaccine dose given, your chances of contracting a compensatable illness are 0.00008943983% Or, if you like your numbers the other way around, there was 1 compensatable illness for every 1.118M doses given.

You're considerably more likely to be hit by a meteor.

 

[milo]

Here you go @JPBB - BAILII is a database recording the outcomes of all cases in British and Irish courts and tribunals. It goes back a few years, so will definitely contain what you are looking for, if it has happened

http://www.bailii.org

@scaramanga

 

[milo]

Here you go @JPBB - BAILII is a database recording the outcomes of all cases in British and Irish courts and tribunals. It goes back a few years, so will definitely contain what you are looking for, if it has happened

http://www.bailii.org

@scaramanga

It includes the verdicts too, so we can read what the judge had to say.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't know. You're the scientist. I would have thought that part of the any settlement would include a NDA. GHod forbid that anyone could know the details of the Government payments for vaccine damage. FOI requests are met with the simple response that they do not hold the data. Why should they? It is not helpful to them.

I'm not a scientist - at least not one that would be recognised by any industry. I'm an Aerospace Engineer by training and a Finance Director by trade (via a fairly circuitous IT career). My only "side" in this debate is that of rational and logical thinking.

I'm still looking for the original transcript, but a summary from the press is here:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/13/science/la-sci-autism13-2010mar13

This is the ruling from three separate judges, using the three strongest cases they could find for parents claiming vaccine-related autism. Their summary judgements are pretty conclusive.

I rely on the stories, videos and pictures of the lying, stupid, parents of vaccine damaged kids.

Then it's no wonder you have all the wrong answers.

On a separate point, I wonder if we need a timeout to work out what we are arguing about here.

Gladly. If you care to put forward one claim at a time, I (and probably a few others) will happily debate them in turn.

I certainly don't expect to or want to change your opinion. I was like you, blindly pro vaccine,

I believe what the evidence tells me, nothing more, nothing less. Show me some evidence that outweighs that upon which I base my opinion and I will change my opinion accordingly.

until I was touched by vaccine damage (you say I am lying but it is what I believe) and the disgusting response of the medical and pharma industry to it. I say vaccine damage happens a lot. You deny this.

I call those who are profiting from suffering families liars, you are just mistaken. But you do have a lot to gain from this - I'm sure understanding the process and methods behind rational thought will never make up for any losses you've suffered, but it will change your life.

As someone else once said on here, you might only change if you are touched by it. I hope that never happens.

I hope it doesn't happen too, but I'd like to think I'd continue to believe in evidence and rationality if it ever did.

 

[JPBB]

Here you go @JPBB - BAILII is a database recording the outcomes of all cases in British and Irish courts and tribunals. It goes back a few years, so will definitely contain what you are looking for, if it has happened

http://www.bailii.org

@scaramanga

I didn't think this is a government website so it is not covered by FOI. The fact remains the UK Government refuses to provide details of their vaccination damaged compensation program because it says it does not have records of why they have paid out and for what vaccines. It is scarcely believable.

 

[milo]

I didn't think this is a government website so it is not covered by FOI. The fact remains the UK Government refuses to provide details of their vaccination damaged compensation program because it says it does not have records of why they have paid out and for what vaccines. It is scarcely believable.

I was providing a link to the website to help you find a case where a vaccine damaged child had received compensation.

 

[JPBB]

@JPBB - before we move on too far from Rotarix, I think that it would be good to wrap up what we have covered and draw some conclusions.

Do you agree that the trials showed that the vaccine was significantly more effective than placebo in preventing gastro-enteritis?

That there was not a significant difference in the mortality rate between the three groups in the trial?

That claims of other harm from the vaccine have been unsupported and that the trials showed no significant difference between the three groups?

You are still trying to convince me, despite my personal experience, that I should accept the risks of damage to my tiny baby from vaccine that is not needed (in UK) because you sent some self serving website links?

If you want to blindly vaccinate, you go ahead. It's your kid. As Scara so charmingly says you are more likely to be hit by meteorite. But I don't think it will be much consolation to 0.2% of parents who blindly vaccinate and now have a dead child. (your own figures)

 

[milo]

@JPBB I'd be interested in seeing the FOI response where that was said. If a requestor is unhappy with a response they can request an internal review and if they are unhappy with the outcome of that they can complain to the Information Commissioner. The ICO has a history of making decisions that go against the government, so if the complaint has grounds, i'd be reasonably confident that the ICO would force the department to release the information.

I had a look through the What Do They Know website. Not all FOI requests are made through it by a long chalk but it is a pretty comprehensive record of requests and responses.

The response below was partially answered and reveals that between 1998 and 2015, 2122 claims were made of which 30 were successful.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/vaccine_damage_compensation_betw#incoming-625878

 

[milo]

You are still trying to convince me, despite my personal experience, that I should accept the risks of damage to my tiny baby from vaccine that is not needed (in UK) because you sent some self serving website links?

If you want to blindly vaccinate, you go ahead. It's your kid. As Scara so charmingly says you are more likely to be hit by meteorite. But I don't think it will be much consolation to 0.2% of parents who blindly vaccinate and now have a dead child. (your own figures)

No I'm not. You came to this thread and posted about the risk posed by vaccines. All I have asked you to do is substantiate your claims and discuss the points that you have raised.

 

[milo]

@JPBB I'd be interested in seeing the FOI response where that was said. If a requestor is unhappy with a response they can request an internal review and if they are unhappy with the outcome of that they can complain to the Information Commissioner. The ICO has a history of making decisions that go against the government, so if the complaint has grounds, i'd be reasonably confident that the ICO would force the department to release the information.

I had a look through the What Do They Know website. Not all FOI requests are made through it by a long chalk but it is a pretty comprehensive record of requests and responses.

The response below was partially answered and reveals that between 1998 and 2015, 2122 claims were made of which 30 were successful.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/vaccine_damage_compensation_betw#incoming-625878

@JPBB Paragraph three of this response to a question relating to compensation as a result of MMR is quite helpful in understanding why information is not held on damage by vaccine.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/618/response/1543/attach/html/2/FOI 486 response.doc.html

 

[JPBB]

Yep. So if you want know which vaccines and which injuries the government pays out on, forget it, they are not going to tell you.

If I was to guess from what I heard from parents of vaccine damaged children (some of whom have had compensation), I would say top of the charts by a very long way would be DTaP, and most common injury would be death or the rather vague neurological injuries (effectively autism without admitting it).

 

[JPBB]

No I'm not. You came to this thread and posted about the risk posed by vaccines. All I have asked you to do is substantiate your claims and discuss the points that you have raised.

I came on the thread to say I had seen the film Vaxxed and I thought it was interesting because it is says the CDC in American covered up statistics about vaccine damage. And we have come full circle because here we are discussing why the UK Government covers up stats about vaccine damage.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Yep. So if you want know which vaccines and which injuries the government pays out on, forget it, they are not going to tell you.

If I was to guess from what I heard from parents of vaccine damaged children (some of whom have had compensation), I would say top of the charts by a very long way would be DTaP, and most common injury would be death or the rather vague neurological injuries (effectively autism without admitting it).

I can't believe that after all the discussion that has gone on you've just started a sentence with 'If I was to guess'.

 

[JPBB]

We have to guess because the Government won't tell us. If the parents of vaccine damaged kids had guessed too, their kids won't be vaccine damaged or dead.