milo
Jack L. Jones
That you can't get away with it against Dortmund was painfully obvious last night but anyone who travels away to a Europa League game expecting a full strength side either hasn't been paying attention or is a fool.
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***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***
- Thread starter Lemonade Money
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That you can't get away with it against Dortmund was painfully obvious last night but anyone who travels away to a Europa League game expecting a full strength side either hasn't been paying attention or is a fool.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
That's the kind of thinking that loses us points against sides that we should be beating...
Robspur12
John Lacy
Really ? Perhaps you should have that conversation with Lemonade money. There was no way anyone could have predicted what team Poch would put out against a top European side irrespective of what his previous team selection s were. In fact I recall several posters behind very excited at the prospect of seeing us test ourselves against Dortmund; I don't recall a single one considering it would be a second string team.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Wow...care to qualify that statement, perhaps using the team line-ups we've played in our away EL games up to this point?
Robspur12
John Lacy
Don't think they are second rate but you buy a ticket hoping to see the strongest side. That is just respect for the fans
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
You have a fair sentiment in terms of supporting the side and backing whoever is selected to play, but was that line-up we had last night our first choice?
Would you have been happy to have played that line-up on Saturday vs the Goons?
balesleftboot
Sean Davis
How bad was the ref by the way?
balesleftboot
Sean Davis
Have calmed down a little about the team selection/result.
The realisation that we are very much in a title chase, as opposed to the usual throwing Cups in pursuit of finishing 4th, only to narrowly miss out and find ourselves in the Europa again!
Every game from now on will feel like a Cup Final.
COYS.
The realisation that we are very much in a title chase, as opposed to the usual throwing Cups in pursuit of finishing 4th, only to narrowly miss out and find ourselves in the Europa again!
Every game from now on will feel like a Cup Final.
COYS.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Well, firstly, I'd argue that the statement that he 'didn't throw the game' is based on semantics to an extent: it could equally be argued that sending out a team of U-18s against Dortmund could be an attempt to win the game, because it involved taking 'a gamble that the U-18s could get a result at Dortmund, which would have allowed him to keep the main team fresh for the run in in the league'. Did he field a much weakened side away against a team on top of their game? Yes. Did he do it with the first-team players who would be considered our 'first eleven' available and fit enough for the bench (and fit enough to be thrown on as we sunk deeper into the mire)? Yes.
I've never once advocated forgetting about the CL: indeed, it's been my focus for a few months now, with 70 points the target that I consider sufficient to secure CL football. That's 15 points from our last nine games, i.e, 4 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses. But I get the feeling that the approach people are adopting when they dismiss this game as an irrelevance in their haste to face Villa and Bournemouth is not a rational, CL-first safety approach: it's some sort of wild dream that throwing away ties against big teams like Dortmund because they're an inconvenience will aid us in rushing to the *title*.
For me, 4 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses is an eminently achievable target, fatigue or no. That will get us to the CL, which is an achievement in and of itself. But, In my view, sacrificing ties like this to preserve fitness given the margin we've built up over the course of the preceding few months is counter-productive, and unnecessary. of our remaining fixtures, even accounting for dropped points against Liverpool, Chelsea and United will still leave us room for a couple of draws or losses to unexpected teams: it's a safety margin that allows us to compete in big games like this, against big sides which themselves were looking forward to testing their mettle against Tottenham Hotspur. In the event, we gave them a damp squid of a game and escaped with a 3-0 loss that we were probably relieved to get, since it could have been worse.
In the end, the danger of constantly throwing away cup games because they're either inconveniently timed or provide a relatively low chance of winning them is that the club becomes an Arsenal Mark 2: constantly prioritizing 4th, entering competitions just to exit them again and turning big games that the fans paid money to excitedly watch and (in the case of our excellent away fans) traveled miles to be at into a run-out for the reserves and kids, because it's more important that we sock Villa or Bournemouth or whoever.
Anyway, I'm trying to follow my own prescriptions and move on from this disappointment. If we finish 4th at the end of the season, that's great progress and an achievement that Poch will be rightly celebrated for: I'll happily give him an 8/10, or thereabouts. It could have been better, though, and I'll definitely note my disappointment at the weakened sides he fielded against Arsenal in the League Cup and now against Dortmund in the EL: it's not right that we treat cup competitions that way, when they're pretty much our only shot of consistently winning things.
And, as an aside, I'd like to imagine that that sort of thing is a nuanced view, at least in part: and it saddens me to observe that more often than not, attempts to develop nuance or maintain reserve are jumped on in certain instances, Poch's status being one of them. I'm the first person to admit that I get too emotional at times and express myself in excessively florid terms, but what's surprised me is that even relatively uncontroversial statements like 'there are replacements for him if he does leave, and I hope contingency plans have been drawn up to that effect' generate significant disputes. To unreservedly love Poch for his achievements and to blind oneself to his downsides is to once again afford a cult status to a staff member of the club that will only end up hurting us in the long run when they either f*k up or leave: Redknapp was an example of the rollercoaster that engendered, as was Bale on the playing side. I'd imagine that, with our history, we'd be a lot more careful in who we decide to unreservedly trust and adore, only affording such privileges to people with the right criteria or sufficient time spent at the club. Certainly that was the lesson I learned from having my heart broken by those times: ergo, I find that this constant need for the restatement of one's priors before affording nuances that run contrary to the popular opinion in cases like that of Poch ('I'm very happy with what he's done overall this season, buuuuuut he was sh*te today') more than a little disheartening, because I thought that was a lesson that everyone had learned.
Anyway, like I said, trying to follow my own prescriptions. On to Villa, and let's hope our gamble (as you put it) was worth it.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
hoping, maybe, it's not an expectation that matches the t&c's set by the club though
whether I'm happy or not is irrelevant, it's the managers prerogative, I hope the team wins, and I have my favourites of course, but I don't feel I have a right to anything or that my opinion has any weight
I'm continuously annoyed by the pervasive attitide of entitlement amongst football spectators, somebody last night threw a strop in the match thread suggesting "we're gonna lose tonight and now not win the league", what have we become...
Kenyan Spur
Peter Taylor
Very disappointed With the result last night. I never want to lose ANY games - including the "mickey mouse" domestic cups and the Europa Cup.
However, I think that Poch MUST have found himself in a situation where he had NO choice but to field the team he did - taking into consideration unfit, injured , knackered etc. players. None of these facts are known to us - the keyboard warriors on here.
Anyway, we have to look at the bigger picture. We are in a position that I could have NEVER thought would be possible with 9 games to go. This COULD be a long term defining season for us.
So please guys, lets get behind Poch, the team & management to hopefully deliver a truly memorable season.
Thank You . COYS
However, I think that Poch MUST have found himself in a situation where he had NO choice but to field the team he did - taking into consideration unfit, injured , knackered etc. players. None of these facts are known to us - the keyboard warriors on here.
Anyway, we have to look at the bigger picture. We are in a position that I could have NEVER thought would be possible with 9 games to go. This COULD be a long term defining season for us.
So please guys, lets get behind Poch, the team & management to hopefully deliver a truly memorable season.
Thank You . COYS
AjaxDeSuperYids
Drama queen
It was only really dembele and Kane that Poch rested. People going on like he picked the under 15s team ffs.
Again if the ref does his job it's 1-1 after an hour.
It amazes me how some ppl are determined to scutinise particular facts regarding yesterday but unashamedly refuse to acknowledge the fact of the penalty we were denied.
Why not acknowledge and address ALL of the facts of yesterday's game?
Again if the ref does his job it's 1-1 after an hour.
It amazes me how some ppl are determined to scutinise particular facts regarding yesterday but unashamedly refuse to acknowledge the fact of the penalty we were denied.
Why not acknowledge and address ALL of the facts of yesterday's game?
Baleforce
Ron Henry
indeed
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
Football is emotional; strops happen; we have a history of bottling it at this stage and sometimes those 'bottle jobs' have been triggered by key losses that feel like they could be avoided. A bit OTT but you can sort of understand it..
I assume you wanted Sherwood gone; was that due to a "pervasive attitude of entitlement"?
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
Good GHod. And how do you explain spurs putting up the prices for the home leg? It's dortmund in Europe, what is this club about? I take it you don't travel then, I'd be grateful if you could give me a list of the games worth supporting my team.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
Football is emotional; strops happen; we have a history of bottling it at this stage and sometimes those 'bottle jobs' have been triggered by key losses that feel like they could be avoided. A bit OTT but you can sort of understand it..
I assume you wanted Sherwood gone; was that due to a "pervasive attitude of entitlement"?
yep, I wanted him gone as I had no faith in his ability, I didn't whine to the club about it though, or unfurl a banner, or boo, or in anyway try to influence a club official, I moaned about it on the Internet
I have no issue with moaning on the Internet, I have an issue with disproportionate response's such as wanting refunds (not that that was anything more than a throw away suggestion, so far) or team selection being dictated by anything other than the manager
people can moan back at me, always happy to converse on football
StephenH
David Ginola
Spot on!
I was thinking this yesterday - people do not seem to watch European teams until we play them. Last night people got upset AND surprised by our team, why?
There was not one surprise at all last night from either side.
As I said before the game it was a case of how many we would concede and could we possibly nick a goal.
glorygloryeze
Ian Walker
yep, I wanted him gone as I had no faith in his ability, I didn't whine to the club about it though, or unfurl a banner, or boo, or in anyway try to influence a club official, I moaned about it on the Internet
I have no issue with moaning on the Internet, I have an issue with disproportionate response's such as wanting refunds (not that that was anything more than a throw away suggestion, so far) or team selection being dictated by anything other than the manager
people can moan back at me, always happy to converse on football
So you "have no issue with moaning on the internet" but you think somebody throwing a strop in a match thread (aka the Internet) showed a "pervasive attitude of entitlement - what have we become"...?
Makes sense to me too...
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
What fudges me off is how predicable it was.
From the for some reason locked Europa League thread
http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/commun...16-borussia-dortmund.7585/page-19#post-749776
http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/commun...16-borussia-dortmund.7585/page-25#post-763554
Every year we get to the knock outs and decide that the run in to the league is way more important.
Our second string is never good enough.
I mean we've only reached the quarter finals twice of the Europa/Uefa since we started qualifying nearly every year in 2006. We've played 16 knockout ties, won 8 and lost 8.
Its undeniable that playing the Europa groups has an effect on our league games.
Here's what Poch said last season (12 APR 2015)
"When you do a whole season playing Thursday - Sunday and you are a young squad and you make the biggest effort during the season, maybe you arrive at the end at very difficult level.
Personally I'm sick all the dropped points after away Europa group games every season.
And then the same people on here that defend the selection in the Europa groups then shrugging their shoulders and accepting limping out of the knock outs.
Thank fudge we are hopefully done with this competition for good now.
From the for some reason locked Europa League thread
http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/commun...16-borussia-dortmund.7585/page-19#post-749776
http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/commun...16-borussia-dortmund.7585/page-25#post-763554
Every year we get to the knock outs and decide that the run in to the league is way more important.
Our second string is never good enough.
I mean we've only reached the quarter finals twice of the Europa/Uefa since we started qualifying nearly every year in 2006. We've played 16 knockout ties, won 8 and lost 8.
Its undeniable that playing the Europa groups has an effect on our league games.
Here's what Poch said last season (12 APR 2015)
"When you do a whole season playing Thursday - Sunday and you are a young squad and you make the biggest effort during the season, maybe you arrive at the end at very difficult level.
Personally I'm sick all the dropped points after away Europa group games every season.
And then the same people on here that defend the selection in the Europa groups then shrugging their shoulders and accepting limping out of the knock outs.
Thank fudge we are hopefully done with this competition for good now.
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