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*** Tottenham Hotspur v Woolwich *** OMT

metalgear said:
yeah thats what the nazis and communists said too lol. whatever happened to diversity?
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You really are a piece of work, someone mentioned the phrase WUM earlier but from some of your stupid posts I'm not sure if you have the wit to be one.
 
metalgear said:
hmmm....if i slammed liverpools excellent football and compared it against our game against Chel53a would you then agree with me?

perhaps the key issue is that i think klopp has them playing better football in a few games than poch in a year with us. that seems to be the fundamental disagreement here. then again its a small sample of games, it remains to be seen if this can be sustained across the season or longer, but it doesn't change my opinion.

i am a spurs fan and wish success and glory for the club over any individual - coach or player.
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What on earth are you smoking!! Football is all about opinions but sometimes some are just completely wrong! It's like trying to argue savage was better than Roy keane or something! You can say it but it's really not true on any level.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Its funny, you've emboldened a sentence quoting me, my next sentence starts "Both were tough games..." Not exactly ignoring that these were tough games then.

By putting the reason for the draws (and not wins) on the oppositions being good, you are essentially saying the Spurs team were not good enough to win these games. The other team were too good, the opposition were too tough for us. On this point I beg to differ. In time this team will improve, as mentioned above. We are more or less on teh same page to be honest as you've then said we need to make more of chances and make dominance count. Agreed.

In the pool game I think we were caught up in the Klopp hysteria. Determined to out 'new manager' them and not focused enough on playing our game. In the Scum game, there was a point second half where the players, and fans of both teams, were like funk me, Spurs are totally dominating this. It was a bit of a shock. We were in possession, threatening their box, passing and moving, but not killing the game off. Poch understand this I believe. It is all pretty new territory for this team. There should be fast learning curve with Poch at the helm, and I have every confidence in him to develop the side so they increasingly put flailing teams to the sword, as you put it.
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I am definitely not saying that we were not good enough to win the games. We have won this type of games in the past and over the calendar year we must be pretty pleased with our performance against the richer clubs. We dominated both the Liverpool and Arsenal games but need to get better at turning domination into goals.

I agree with @braineclipse - in finely balanced games there is a fair degree of luck involved in who comes out on top. We do not need to invent reasons or come up with what we think was going through our players heads.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Its funny, you've emboldened a sentence quoting me, my next sentence starts "Both were tough games..." Not exactly ignoring that these were tough games then.

By putting the reason for the draws (and not wins) on the oppositions being good, you are essentially saying the Spurs team were not good enough to win these games. The other team were too good, the opposition were too tough for us. On this point I beg to differ. In time this team will improve, as mentioned above. We are more or less on teh same page to be honest as you've then said we need to make more of chances and make dominance count. Agreed.

In the pool game I think we were caught up in the Klopp hysteria. Determined to out 'new manager' them and not focused enough on playing our game. In the Scum game, there was a point second half where the players, and fans of both teams, were like funk me, Spurs are totally dominating this. It was a bit of a shock. We were in possession, threatening their box, passing and moving, but not killing the game off. Poch understand this I believe. It is all pretty new territory for this team. There should be fast learning curve with Poch at the helm, and I have every confidence in him to develop the side so they increasingly put flailing teams to the sword, as you put it.
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I agree with this. Here's where the rubber's hitting the road (IMO) with the opinions of, say, metalgear and others. I will speak for myself in the 'others' category. I fully expected this season to be 6th and building. Nothing more. I took the view that Poch started the renovation last season, and felt this season was all about building on those changes. I suspect that perhaps the counter opinion is that we need it now, that we need success this season as Poch has had a season already???? Things appear to have clicked far quicker than even I expected, so naturally, expectations rise (as is fair). I remember that second-half period and felt exactly as you say (i.e. we need a goal or they will come back strong for the final 15). And I agree. It will be a fast learning curve and I expect we will soon be turning our dominance into 3 points instead of one. I felt the Arteta sub was key to pinning us back after the goal/keeping Son in check. I wish we'd had Clinton to come on for his raw pace. I also felt fatigue played a massive factor in usnot being able to reassert despite Arteta moving them up the pitch.

As for Klopp's 'Pool, I have found them unexciting to watch.
 
thfcsteff said:
I agree with this. Here's where the rubber's hitting the road (IMO) with the opinions of, say, metalgear and others. I will speak for myself in the 'others' category. I fully expected this season to be 6th and building. Nothing more. I took the view that Poch started the renovation last season, and felt this season was all about building on those changes. I suspect that perhaps the counter opinion is that we need it now, that we need success this season as Poch has had a season already???? Things appear to have clicked far quicker than even I expected, so naturally, expectations rise (as is fair). I remember that second-half period and felt exactly as you say (i.e. we need a goal or they will come back strong for the final 15). And I agree. It will be a fast learning curve and I expect we will soon be turning our dominance into 3 points instead of one. I felt the Arteta sub was key to pinning us back after the goal/keeping Son in check. I wish we'd had Clinton to come on for his raw pace. I also felt fatigue played a massive factor in usnot being able to reassert despite Arteta moving them up the pitch.

As for Klopp's 'Pool, I have found them unexciting to watch.
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Do you agree that our players were caught up in the Klopp hysteria? Or we half way along a journey to get better and not yet taking full advantage of positions of dominance?
 
milo said:
Do you agree that our players were caught up in the Klopp hysteria? Or we half way along a journey to get better and not yet taking full advantage of positions of dominance?
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Milo you said it yourself we need to make more of our chances. It equates to the same thing. I think we're more or less in agreement and debating nuances. And if we're doing that with no Spurs 'fix' this weekend, I would take you to task on one point: I believe the team were good enough - in terms of talent - to win the Scum game. Neutral pundits reported that we were on top and they 'got out of jail'. Does your opinion differ?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Milo you said it yourself we need to make more of our chances. It equates to the same thing. I think we're more or less in agreement and debating nuances. And if we're doing that with no Spurs 'fix' this weekend, I would take you to task on one point: I believe the team were good enough - in terms of talent - to win the Scum game. Neutral pundits reported that we were on top and they 'got out of jail'. Does your opinion differ?
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I agree that we are not there yet. I agree that we were good enough to win the Arsenal game, I have never said otherwise. The Alderweireld header or the clever short corner to Rose goes in and it is game over. I disagree with you about what you think was going through the players heads in both the Arsenal and Liverpool games.
 
Okay!

If I can, what was going through the players heads? This may not be as silly a discussion as it initially appears! Most agree that psychology and individual/teams mental approach plays a key role in sports and performances.
 
SpurMeUp said:
If I can, what was going through the players heads? This may not be as silly a discussion as it initially appears! Most agree that psychology and individual/teams mental approach plays a key role in sports and performances.
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I understand what you are saying, I just don't think that you have anything to base a judgement of what was going through the players heads on. Games ebb and flow and good teams are difficult to break down.
 
milo said:
I am definitely not saying that we were not good enough to win the games. We have won this type of games in the past and over the calendar year we must be pretty pleased with our performance against the richer clubs. We dominated both the Liverpool and Arsenal games but need to get better at turning domination into goals.

I agree with @braineclipse - in finely balanced games there is a fair degree of luck involved in who comes out on top. We do not need to invent reasons or come up with what we think was going through our players heads.
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I firmly believe that you make your own luck. I also firmly believe that determination, focus, success are link to psychology and mentality. The good Managers are not just tacticians, and fitness coaches, they are psychologists. You only have to look at Fergie to see how a mentality can be key. I don't know a huge amount about him, but in what I have seen, more or less everything that is talked about relates to a mentality. How players think on the pitch. Concentration, setting that pre-match tone not get back in the dressing room having lost, playing the game not the occasion, looking at quotes showing the other teams arrogance etc etc. All areas which concern a psychology and a winning mentality. With a young talented team in uncharted territory (dominating at the Effeminates for example) having that mentality to play their way regardless is key.

Its not black and white. There are many variables: fatigue, the other team etc etc to factor in. But small things make a difference and games swinging on small margins. All the more reason to have the right psychology.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
I firmly believe that you make your own luck. I also firmly believe that determination, focus, success are link to psychology and mentality. The good Managers are not just tacticians, and fitness coaches, they are psychologists. You only have to look at Fergie, to see how the right mentality can be key. I don't know a huge amount about him, but in what I have seen, more or less everything that is talked about relates to a mentality. How players think on the pitch. Concentration, setting that pre-match tone not get back in the dressing room having lost, playing the game not the occasion, looking at quotes showing the other teams arrogance etc etc. All areas which concern a psychology and a winning mentality. With a young talented team in uncharted territory (dominating at the Effeminates for example) having that mentality to play their way regardless is key.

Its not black and white. There are many variables: fatigue, the other team etc etc to factor in. But small things make a difference and games swinging on small margins. All the more reason to have the right psychology.
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I agree that mentality is important. I just don't believe that you can work out what was going through the players' heads at certain stages of a game as a spectator.

I think that you are ignoring that a game ebbs and flows and projecting your preconceptions as an explanation for why we were not on top for 90 minutes.
 
milo said:
I agree that mentality is important. I just don't believe that you can work out what was going through the players' heads at certain stages of a game as a spectator.

I think that you are ignoring that a game ebbs and flows and projecting your preconceptions as an explanation for why we were not on top for 90 minutes.
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Having met and spoke with many players for long discussions about games and experiences the one thing they all say is that you play on instinct and training 99% of the time. They don't think,they just do, because they can. In,y the poor players I've met talk about their memory's of game specifics because they were highlights for them. What I can say is most remember what others have done on the pitch

I remember asking Ginola why he did that run vs Barnsley in the cup and he said because I can, and if stopped to think about it i would have been tackled

i thinks we should start debating the players body language as we have experts here in that too
 
Bedfordspurs said:
i thinks we should start debating the players body language as we have experts here in that too
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can-of-worms.jpg
 
milo said:
I agree that mentality is important. I just don't believe that you can work out what was going through the players' heads at certain stages of a game as a spectator.

I think that you are ignoring that a game ebbs and flows and projecting your preconceptions as an explanation for why we were not on top for 90 minutes.
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You're position has moved somewhat. From the opponents being tough as a reason for the draws to we can't know what's going on in the players heads. I get you. But there are some circumstantial clues. 1. Pre and post Pool game Spurs players were talking about the new manager effect and matching them. 2. Do you think we had the right mentality when we were coasting against the Scum? 3. Are we a young team, that you wouldn't expect to be experienced playing and approaching such games? 4. Poch talked about how it was a "young team" post Scam game. Does he think the players have more to learn about their mentality and approach to closing games?

We don't know what the players are thinking exactly, but we can see how they play, and how they need to improve in my opinion (and I believe in Pochettino's too).
 
SpurMeUp said:
You're position has moved somewhat. From the opponents being tough as a reason for the draws to we can't know what's going on in the players heads. I get you. But there are some circumstantial clues. 1. Pre and post Pool game Spurs players were talking about the new manager effect and matching them. 2. Do you think we had the right mentality when we were coasting against the Scum? 3. Are we a young team, that you wouldn't expect to be experienced playing and approaching such games? 4. Poch talked about how it was a "young team" post Scam game. Does he think the players have more to learn about their mentality and approach to closing games?

We don't know what the players are thinking exactly, but we can see how they play, and how they need to improve in my opinion (and I believe in Pochettino's too).
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My position hasn't changed at all. These games are difficult to win, one of the reasons for this is mental.

I would be interested in seeing the comments from Spurs players about the new manager effect ahead of an after the Liverpool game. Was this anything more than filling space at press conferences?

I do not agree that we were coasting at any point in the Arsenal game. I think that we found it difficult to break down a well drilled side and we struggled to adapt when they switched tactics to play it long.

Do we need to get stronger mentally and take advantage of our dominance of games more often? Yes.
 
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