Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[braineclipse]

I thought we played quite narrow against Everton, most of our attacks came on the counter direct through the center of the pitch - i've checked the stats, posted the relevant ones in this thread iirc and they back that thinking up - we actually had more wide possession/passes on the wings against Chelsea so i find it strange that width is being used as the reason why we were good against Everton whilst not so good against Chelsea.

The major difference between the two games was possession, imo. One we countered one we 'controlled' - it also ties in with our other games this season - games we dominate possession wise we generally struggle to create chances in, games where we counter we look more of a threat in the final 3rd.

Spot on!

 

[Finney Is Back]

Spot on!

I checked the heatmaps on the Daily Mail site and Lennon's main position against Everton is a good 10 yards wider than Lamela's against Palace. Their position in terms of how far forward they played was similar however.

 

[Robspur12]

Look I take your point that it would be difficult/stupid/suicidal to sack another manager at this stage.... That doesn't mean we should just accept the fact that we are having a bad season and that a squad of by and large the same players (plus/minus the ones Pochettino wanted to add/get rid of) look worse than we did last year.

The chairman is obviously at an advantage over me as (I assume) he is completely aware of our manager's vision in terms of what he wants to achieve, how he wants to achieve it and the roadmap that is in place to enable him to achieve it.

The things I would want to know however would be:

1. Why are we already tired after less than half a season has gone?
2. Will the manager always play i.n.v.e.r.t.e.d w.i.n.g.e.r.s no matter what?.... even if we don't have full backs available who can provide our width?
3. Is the manager prepared to change his gameplan during the game if his preferred gameplan isn't working?
4. Why did Capoue play for over a quarter of the season when he is clearly absolute dogsh!t?
5. Why is he persisting with Lamela, despite the fact that he isn't showing signs of improving his play?
6. Why did he drop the only player who gives us width when attacking and go back to i.n.v.e.r.t.e.d w.i.n.g.e.r.s in our next home game after our best performance of the season in our previous home game?
7. Why are teams with much lower value players and wage bills able to come to WHL, look so comfortable defensively against us and outplay us in terms of chances created?
8. Why was our last manager able to achieve more with the same bunch of players? Is it a communication thing was he tactically better or did he worry less about the opponent and concentrate more on our own strengths?
9. How long does he think it will take for the squad to learn his methods and look like a cohesive team?
10. What players are/aren't buying into the 'philosophy' which players should I sell (even for a big loss) and which should I push the boat out for (within reason - I don't mean AVB pie in the sky targets).

Look I get that Pochettino has a 'philosophy' and I get that a certain type of player and a certain type of mentality is required in order to implement that philosophy - however all managers are judged on performances and results. I have gone to work in many failing businesses/departments with the task of turning them round. There is obviously always a long term goal to work towards. However I also accept that I cannot change things instantly so have to find a way of achieving some short term wins along the way.

I was pleased with our performance against Everton - I thought that finally Pochettino had realised that having some pace and width would help to open up the centre of pitch, but straight away he goes back to the same formation that Stoke, WBA, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, etc had all found so easy to defend against.... Then after watching 45 minutes of us taking the ball inside where Palace had numbers he takes off Lamela (hooray!) and puts on Chadli to do exactly the same thing that Lamela was (or should I say wasn't) doing.

Finney point 1 could be answered by the fact we played 4 competitive games in the space of 10 days. Looking at other teams who have had a similar schedule; namely Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and even City all had similarly poor games at the weekend. Also I asked before, how would you manage Aaron Lennon, a player with an appalling injury history? Prior to Saturday he had started all 3 games and it is my opinion that Poch was trying to protect him. One thing that impresses me is the paucity of muscle injuries suffered under the Poch regime so far. Also I think your point about Lamela not improving his play is not correct. He has shown some very promising signs certainly more than last season. However, he is still very inconsistent. However, you said yourself against Everton he came on and put in a good shift. I cannot explain why our players are not buying into the philosophy because Southampton's players did and very quickly.

 

[Robspur12]

I thought we played quite narrow against Everton, most of our attacks came on the counter direct through the center of the pitch - i've checked the stats, posted the relevant ones in this thread iirc and they back that thinking up - we actually had more wide possession/passes on the wings against Chelsea so i find it strange that width is being used as the reason why we were good against Everton whilst not so good against Chelsea.

The major difference between the two games was possession, imo. One we countered one we 'controlled' - it also ties in with our other games this season - games we dominate possession wise we generally struggle to create chances in, games where we counter we look more of a threat in the final 3rd.

Interesting post and would also go some way to explaining our poor home form where we are expecting to dominate possession more (although I know that everton was home and Chelsea away which seems counter intuitive)

 

[Jordinho]

Interesting post and would also go some way to explaining our poor home form where we are expecting to dominate possession more (although I know that everton was home and Chelsea away which seems counter intuitive)

Martinez wants his side to keep the ball and pass it around. Mourinho wants to win.

 

[thfcsteff]

The major problem we have is that unless our FBs can get forwards we have no width. Agreed. Warnock saw this and pressed our FBs, pressed Bentaleb and wouldn't let Kane have any movement without a Yak shadow. Distribution points identified and dealt with. We need a little more quality up top in terms of raw finishing (Nobby's workmate and movement were fine, he just needs to take opportunities) and right now, given the lack of pace in the side, Lennon is very very important. I want to see who Poch targets/gets in the next two windows. I also wonder if he shouldn't just tread water with the top 10 through May and through all efforts into the Europa for potential CL qualification?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The width argument for me isn't just about passing the ball wide... It's about having players wide as options that stretch the opposition and therefore creates space in the middle

 

[Robspur12]

The major problem we have is that unless our FBs can get forwards we have no width. Agreed. Warnock saw this and pressed our FBs, pressed Bentaleb and wouldn't let Kane have any movement without a Yak shadow. Distribution points identified and dealt with. We need a little more quality up top in terms of raw finishing (Nobby's workmate and movement were fine, he just needs to take opportunities) and right now, given the lack of pace in the side, Lennon is very very important. I want to see who Poch targets/gets in the next two windows. I also wonder if he shouldn't just tread water with the top 10 through May and through all efforts into the Europa for potential CL qualification?

I like this option Steff but of course it is very high risk and not sure we have enough quality in the squad.

 

[thfcsteff]

Appreciate the long answer, let me pick through it and discuss within quote (italics)...

Look I take your point that it would be difficult/stupid/suicidal to sack another manager at this stage.... That doesn't mean we should just accept the fact that we are having a bad season and that a squad of by and large the same players (plus/minus the ones Pochettino wanted to add/get rid of) look worse than we did last year.

I think taking a rational perspective would help personally...

The chairman is obviously at an advantage over me as (I assume) he is completely aware of our manager's vision in terms of what he wants to achieve, how he wants to achieve it and the roadmap that is in place to enable him to achieve it.

The things I would want to know however would be:

1. Why are we already tired after less than half a season has gone?

I believe you're looking at a group of players who have not played three or four matches on the spin like this all season. Thus we are talking about the members who are not used to such runs (Mason) and those who have been fringe until recently (Azza). I'd expect it to improve over time.[/I]



2. Will the manager always play i.n.v.e.r.t.e.d w.i.n.g.e.r.s no matter what?.... even if we don't have full backs available who can provide our width?

Good question.


3. Is the manager prepared to change his gameplan during the game if his preferred gameplan isn't working?

Good question. I would guess 'yes' so long as he trusts the players he has. Therein lies the question methinks!


4. Why did Capoue play for over a quarter of the season when he is clearly absolute dogsh!t?

Well that is, indeed, a question we'd all ask but Bentaleb's injury must have factored in there.

5. Why is he persisting with Lamela, despite the fact that he isn't showing signs of improving his play?

We have to. The guy has talent and potential. What I would say is that he has the rest of the season left to learn he can grown, because right now, he is showing dangerous signs of regression.


6. Why did he drop the only player who gives us width when attacking and go back to i.n.v.e.r.t.e.d w.i.n.g.e.r.s in our next home game after our best performance of the season in our previous home game?

Azza wasn't 100% fit. Again, lot of games for the first time in a while.


7. Why are teams with much lower value players and wage bills able to come to WHL, look so comfortable defensively against us and outplay us in terms of chances created?

If you're talking about Warnock, he's a good manager who does his homework. He knew exactly how to stop us and executed the plan perfectly. I would want a plan B and believe the manager will be able to deploy once he has the squad in place he wants.


8. Why was our last manager able to achieve more with the same bunch of players? Is it a communication thing was he tactically better or did he worry less about the opponent and concentrate more on our own strengths?

Our last manager put his faith in a player since proven (again) to be an absolute liability. This bailed him out at the beginning, but wore out. I think he had some great potential but sadly did not deliver. I would say he did a lot of what you suggested at the end, and that it's as flawed a tactic as any if you want to beat the best.


9. How long does he think it will take for the squad to learn his methods and look like a cohesive team?

How long until he has a squad he (and the club) can trust? because he has obviously found some arseholes in the mix, and they're not easy to deal with.


10. What players are/aren't buying into the 'philosophy' which players should I sell (even for a big loss) and which should I push the boat out for (within reason - I don't mean AVB pie in the sky targets).

I really do think your eyes can tell you mate.

Look I get that Pochettino has a 'philosophy' and I get that a certain type of player and a certain type of mentality is required in order to implement that philosophy - however all managers are judged on performances and results. I have gone to work in many failing businesses/departments with the task of turning them round. There is obviously always a long term goal to work towards. However I also accept that I cannot change things instantly so have to find a way of achieving some short term wins along the way.

I actually cannot argue with this at all, and always hoped AVB would realize the need for short-term success strategies whilst he underlined his long-term. It's a great point and one I I can't dance with.

I was pleased with our performance against Everton - I thought that finally Pochettino had realised that having some pace and width would help to open up the centre of pitch, but straight away he goes back to the same formation that Stoke, WBA, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, etc had all found so easy to defend against.... Then after watching 45 minutes of us taking the ball inside where Palace had numbers he takes off Lamela (hooray!) and puts on Chadli to do exactly the same thing that Lamela was (or should I say wasn't) doing.


Chadli is enormously frustrating in so much as there's a player in there but he's a part-timer. I think we'd all have tried different things against Palace, and all I can personally hope is that he learnt what he could've done.

 

[thfcsteff]

[/B]

I like this option Steff but of course it is very high risk and not sure we have enough quality in the squad.

Sadly I agree with you if I'm honest mate!

 

[thfcsteff]

The width argument for me isn't just about passing the ball wide... It's about having players wide as options that stretch the opposition and therefore creates space in the middle

THIS!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

THIS!

The best defences in the world can get beat with pace.... But pace is only effective with somewhere to run into....

People have commented elsewhere that Lennon struggles against teams that sit back. Could t it be a case that they sit back because they know his pace is a threat???

Add to that the width he offers and it creates room for others too

We need pace and we need width and the majority of games this season we have t had that unfortunately

We do tend to get more space when teams are down to ten men but their still incredibly hard to bat as they sit back even more... Maybe that contradicts all the arguments as we have beaten teams with ten men (and deservedly so once their down to 10) yet we struggle against them when there actually more offensive

 

[Cochise]

Watching the first half again, we looked our best when the ball was quickly switched out to Lamela who could go 1v1 against his fullback. This in turn led to oppurtunities such as when he drove infield to square to Davies, who in turn found Soldado with a cross. As has been argued constantly regarding Lennon, width is only part of the issue, getting the ball out to the wide men quickly enough is another. It's why I like seeing Mason and Bentaleb in the middle, both have a great passing range in their locker and identify the pass early. Playing Eriksen so far infield though causes other problems as we are then dependent on Davies getting forward on the left if we wish to switch the play to the side from the right.

The only way I can see us truly remedying that is by dropping a striker for a wide forward or instructing one of Kane or Soldado to stay out wide more often.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The major problem we have is that unless our FBs can get forwards we have no width. Agreed. Warnock saw this and pressed our FBs, pressed Bentaleb and wouldn't let Kane have any movement without a Yak shadow. Distribution points identified and dealt with. We need a little more quality up top in terms of raw finishing (Nobby's workmate and movement were fine, he just needs to take opportunities) and right now, given the lack of pace in the side, Lennon is very very important. I want to see who Poch targets/gets in the next two windows. I also wonder if he shouldn't just tread water with the top 10 through May and through all efforts into the Europa for potential CL qualification?

I would like us to bag EL by winning the League Cup in Feb, then the pressure is off in the league and finishing 5th-17th makes no difference. That gives Poch the space in the spring to work on things for a proper challenge next season.

 

[sc25]

I want to see who Poch targets/gets in the next two windows. I also wonder if he shouldn't just tread water with the top 10 through May and through all efforts into the Europa for potential CL qualification?

Not sure about treading water, Steff. I'd have to think about that some more. (Btw top10 is no bargain anyway if you can't beat some of the teams we have been playing. And if we get knocked out next round or two of EL then its moot regardless, and then we can focus on league). But anyway if you take over a 6th place squad (which allegedly underachieved), and you add 6 of your own players in the summer window, and then with the upcoming Jan window too, I'd think that 3rd/4th is an enticing opportunity (especially this season).

I also worry about this idea of 'getting his own players in' which is very often cited in here. Finding and signing players, and them coming in and performing to the level you envisage, is a lot harder than some imagine (not you). I'm also concerned that the number of players we supposedly need to sign (and get rid of) seems to be growing.

Thus a manager, any manager, is tasked with getting the most out of the existing squad he has (which he presumably liked when he chose to come here?). Via player/man management and flexibility he should get them all on same page and playing hard and well and productively in the interim, even if he has an eye on some signings (and that's assuming he can get them). No matter the bad apples, perceived or otherwise, I don't think it reflects well on a manager if he doesn't rate/trust a 3rd of his squad (as some now allege re. tiredness). I don't think either we, or he, anticipated that when he came here.

 

[lurker of old]

I think at the moment we are perhaps the easiest team to defend against in the league. We have no pace, no width and no power up front. Teams can defend high up the pitch and be confident that we don't have the pace to expose that, teams can also push their fullbacks on safe in the knowledge that when we get the ball in wide positions we will take it back inside and not expose the gaps that their attacking fullbacks leave.

Succinct and unfortunately probably true. We need a functioning Adebayor back, scoring goals.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The best defences in the world can get beat with pace.... But pace is only effective with somewhere to run into....

People have commented elsewhere that Lennon struggles against teams that sit back. Could t it be a case that they sit back because they know his pace is a threat???

Add to that the width he offers and it creates room for others too

We need pace and we need width and the majority of games this season we have t had that unfortunately

We do tend to get more space when teams are down to ten men but their still incredibly hard to bat as they sit back even more... Maybe that contradicts all the arguments as we have beaten teams with ten men (and deservedly so once their down to 10) yet we struggle against them when there actually more offensive

I think I have tried to answer this before. I think it is because the teams that have gone down to 10 men have sat right back and given us time. Whereas the teams who come to WHL no longer do that and instead actually seem to press us.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Watching the first half again, we looked our best when the ball was quickly switched out to Lamela who could go 1v1 against his fullback. This in turn led to oppurtunities such as when he drove infield to square to Davies, who in turn found Soldado with a cross. As has been argued constantly regarding Lennon, width is only part of the issue, getting the ball out to the wide men quickly enough is another. It's why I like seeing Mason and Bentaleb in the middle, both have a great passing range in their locker and identify the pass early. Playing Eriksen so far infield though causes other problems as we are then dependent on Davies getting forward on the left if we wish to switch the play to the side from the right.

The only way I can see us truly remedying that is by dropping a striker for a wide forward or instructing one of Kane or Soldado to stay out wide more often.

When you say 'this in turn led to opportunities such as....' Wasn't that the ONLY opportunity created via that method?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I would like us to bag EL by winning the League Cup in Feb, then the pressure is off in the league and finishing 5th-17th makes no difference. That gives Poch the space in the spring to work on things for a proper challenge next season.

Isn't PL prize money about £500k per place?..... The difference financially between finishing 5th and 17th would probably be worth more money than profit made from a Europa league run to the last 16 or even quarters.... Especially now most fans cant even be bothered to go to the games even at the special low prices.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Appreciate the long answer, let me pick through it and discuss within quote (italics)...

Steff I'll try to come on to the other points later (although will probably be too busy at work) however just to clarify one of my points. I wasn't having a go at Chadli himself (although I appreciate that I do quite often so perhaps it is easily assumed). I was instead annoyed by the fact that having seen 45 minutes of Palace coping very comfortably with our narrow shape, he takes off a player and replaces him with a like for like player in terms of the team's shape. Surely that was the time to say 'ok 0-0 at home to Palace after 45 mins with barely a chance created.... Time to go to plan B'. In fact his first and second subs made were so bad that he had to end up taking a potential goal scorer off to get Lennon on the pitch with less than 10 mins to go.