Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Licence To Stand

[jts1882]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Sorry not sure if I am missing something, but why do you feel that this CPO could constitute 'state aid'? Isn't this just a case where Spurs have asked Harringey to issue a CPO. with Harringey approving this and it then going through to the secretary of state for final approval?

Spurs would then be required to pay (an independently set) commerical price for the aquisition of the land. Where is the state aid in this?

West Ham's case regarding the Olympic bid was very different in the fact that their bid involved a sizeable element of funding from Newham council which was to be given on very favourable terms. That same offer was not being made to other bidders.

Fair point, I do seem to be mixing a few issues. The CPO per se probably wouldn't be seen as state aid, but the dropping of the S106 requirements might and that and the CPO are part of the same package. As I said, I'm not a lawyer so this is just idle speculation, but the two together might be sufficient to bring a case to the European Court and even if it eventually fails would take time. Alternatively a CPO for a private development might be subject to a judicial review or some other legal challenge.

To complete the thinking from my previous post, I suspect there will be a difference with the other CPOs on the west side of the High Road. They will be part of the broader North Tottenham redevelopment so more obviously in the public interest, even though the businesses are more location dependent (on the High Rd) than Archway Steel (Paxton Rd v WHL is irrelvant for selling Kebab equipment). The fact that the Spurs stadium plans preceded the broader scheme makes it more obviously a private development getting help (by tacking it on to the Tottenham redevelopment after the fact). The Spurs arguments about viability - it wouldn't be viable without help from the council on transport commitments - rather help this line of argument, which could grounds for some sort of legal challenge to the CPO decision ((judicial review, etc). Even if these are remote possibilities, it seems a good reason to make sure the CPO decision is water-tight before issuing it.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

If they decline the whole of Tottenham should stand up and riot once more. Fcuking idiots in charge. If I was Lammy I would be organising **** in the media, I would be organising **** with the mayor, stuff with Cameron & Clegg, exercising so the public knows that 1 CPO here compaired to CPOs at Arsenal (over 50 I believe), Olympic Stadium and even Brentford and accuse them of an agenda.

I honestly believe this is payback for what happened with the supposed bugging of Council and parliamentary people in the OPLC.. you scratch my back malarkey. Less not forget Pickles constituency is right next door to those that many would have been on that committee.

Another article like this might help encourage Pickles to pull his finger out... or just drag his heels even more out of spite...

[tweet]364659123763163137[/tweet]

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Without being a lawyer, I'll take a stab at answering.

The CPO is being requested so a private business can made a development. The Spurs development (and planning permission) precedes the riots and the wider regeneration plan, which makes the public interest arguments more difficult to make. It could also be subject to a European state aid appeal (e.g. like Newham and West Ham for the Olympic stadium). There is no point rushing the CPO and ending up with lengthy legal entanglements. It is clearly better to try and solve all the problems before giving the CPO.

I will counter by saying isn't the majority of CPO where business is in the way of regeneration, I guarantee the Olympic stadium had its fair share but went through without a hitch, I'd bet they didn't even open the file

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

I will counter by saying isn't the majority of CPO where business is in the way of regeneration, I guarantee the Olympic stadium had its fair share but went through without a hitch, I'd bet they didn't even open the file

I think what jts is saying, is this CPO has been requested by a private company so they can build a shiny new stadium (which comes with massive commercial benefits), and at one stage that is all this project was. A commercial stadium development. The NDP part came later (post riots) and although the stadium is part of that, Archway probably (and perhaps rightly) think that it changes their relationship with THFC not one jot. ie one big private company trying to remove a small private company as there 'in the way'.

The Olympic project (and regeneration)was all London council and goverment driven so CPO's would be easier to process as the intention is that it's for the greater good of that area/country/people.

From Archways position (and maybe THFC) i'm beginning to think that they are in so deep and this thing has gone on for so long (longer than anyone thought) that they have to see it through to the end. I mean with hindsight if they thought the business was (for arguments sake) worth £2m wouldn't they (and Levy) both be happy to settle for £3m inclusive of relocating to a improved and suitable location (Levy should have even guaranteed them the concourse food and commercial kitchen fit out contracts for the new stadium).

Maybe Archway got greedy as it is not as though they need to be in a prime high st location, Paxton Road is hardly a sought after location. As someone said above if the CPO is issued they only get market value (for the land?). Surely Levy offered something decent once? But knowing Levy maybe he never played ball and even he never envisaged the dragging timeline of this remaining hurdle.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Ultimately.. Archway are asking a million for ****e.. Doesn't matter if it's where they are or 2 miles away. It's not like people walk of the street and purchase products.

i'd hazard a guess they are quite enjoying the attention.. Free advertising worth thousands.

there is no rocket science IMO with this issue... and deep down everyone knows it shouldn't take longer than the average case... let alone 6 times the average!

Daniel Levy if I was him would now be releasing a statement that he will be moving Tottenham away from the current site to leave White Hart Lane and move out of the area to leave Tottenham to fall into the mire Eric Pickles obviously wants it to be. Lay everything to blame at Pickles door.

 

[NWND]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

No it doesn't.

It sounds as though it is a "complex case" and that they are consequently giving it thorough consideration.

That is all.

Yeah exactly. The very fact they are saying its complex says there is a chance they will decline it as in they are pretty much saying it could go either way and its a struggle to decide which way their decision will go, and to me, it is couched in language that is setting up for a decliniture. That's just my take on it.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Yeah exactly. The very fact they are saying its complex says there is a chance they will decline it as in they are pretty much saying it could go either way and its a struggle to decide which way their decision will go, and to me, it is couched in language that is setting up for a decliniture. That's just my take on it.

Which to the average person who wants this place changed for the better would not understand a decline in the slightest. Not one person I have spoken too, has suggested any reason solid enough for this CPO not to be passed.

I hope Tottenham move away and build a recycling plant there so it can stink the place out when they are gone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...legal-battle-site-owners-rubbish-removed.html

 

[NWND]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Which to the average person who wants this place changed for the better would not understand a decline in the slightest. Not one person I have spoken too, has suggested any reason solid enough for this CPO not to be passed.

I hope Tottenham move away and build a recycling plant there so it can stink the place out when they are gone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...legal-battle-site-owners-rubbish-removed.html

Well people have tried to say that THFC's new stadium and the local redevelopment projects are two different things, but they aren't. THFC's presence encourages investors and businesses to come and/or stay in the area. Let's face it, what is Tottenham famous for? It certainly isn't Archway steel or basically anything other than riots and THFC. One is not a positive thing to be famous for.

If the club goes, then I would say there is a big chance a lot of the planned regeneration work wouldn't go ahead or would go ahead to a much lesser degree.

Without the CPO, we have to move.

As people have said as well, there were so many CPO's involved with Arsenal's stadium, the Olympic stadium and the fact we had to take legal action, which actually forced the Olympic Stadium back into public ownership with West Ham being tennants rather than owners (as under the previous plan), when WHam were going to be using public money to fund the development, whereas our bid was not selected even though we were going to fund it entirely by ourselves, to me it stinks.

Whether you wanted us to move to Stratford or not, we were royally f***ed over during that process and we had to take action to make sure WHam were not just handed a stadium for free when we have to fork out hundreds of £s of money to rebuild our own.

Don't generally believe in conspiracy theories and every fan of every club thinks their club gets a raw deal, but in this case, i honestly think there is poor political will towards THFC for whatever reason and it would not surprise me in the slightest if the CPO gets turned down.

Where that would leave us, i don't know, but i suspect it would leave us back to square one and would force us to leave Tottenham.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Which to the average person who wants this place changed for the better would not understand a decline in the slightest. Not one person I have spoken too, has suggested any reason solid enough for this CPO not to be passed.

I hope Tottenham move away and build a recycling plant there so it can stink the place out when they are gone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...legal-battle-site-owners-rubbish-removed.html

The Harry Hotspur fella is bangin' a tired drum about bad old ENIC forcing out an honest local merchant.
Claims to have spoken to folk who know things and will soon give details.

His haughty knowing tone certainly makes me want to listen.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Yeah exactly. The very fact they are saying its complex says there is a chance they will decline it as in they are pretty much saying it could go either way and its a struggle to decide which way their decision will go, and to me, it is couched in language that is setting up for a decliniture. That's just my take on it.

Of course there is a chance that they will decline it.

But you said that it "sounds like they are going to decline it". The truth is that there's nothing in Boles' reply to Lammy which suggests that either outcome is more likely than the other.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

I think what jts is saying, is this CPO has been requested by a private company so they can build a shiny new stadium (which comes with massive commercial benefits), and at one stage that is all this project was. A commercial stadium development. The NDP part came later (post riots) and although the stadium is part of that, Archway probably (and perhaps rightly) think that it changes their relationship with THFC not one jot. ie one big private company trying to remove a small private company as there 'in the way'.

The Olympic project (and regeneration)was all London council and goverment driven so CPO's would be easier to process as the intention is that it's for the greater good of that area/country/people.

From Archways position (and maybe THFC) i'm beginning to think that they are in so deep and this thing has gone on for so long (longer than anyone thought) that they have to see it through to the end. I mean with hindsight if they thought the business was (for arguments sake) worth £2m wouldn't they (and Levy) both be happy to settle for £3m inclusive of relocating to a improved and suitable location (Levy should have even guaranteed them the concourse food and commercial kitchen fit out contracts for the new stadium).

Maybe Archway got greedy as it is not as though they need to be in a prime high st location, Paxton Road is hardly a sought after location. As someone said above if the CPO is issued they only get market value (for the land?). Surely Levy offered something decent once? But knowing Levy maybe he never played ball and even he never envisaged the dragging timeline of this remaining hurdle.

Not quite.

The NDP has always been Spurs' plan.

It is the High Road West development plus other proposals which have subsequently been added.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

The Harry Hotspur fella is bangin' a tired drum about bad old ENIC forcing out an honest local merchant.
Claims to have spoken to folk who know things and will soon give details.

His haughty knowing tone certainly makes me want to listen.

Harry Hotspur has always been very pleased with himself for some unexplained reason. He's trying to portray this as a case of corporate greed and skulduggery against the little man. David v Goliath. He's trying to foment the illusion that this is a matter of Archway's very survival. Whatever Archway have told him, he seems to believe it implicitly. Whatever big, bad Spurs / ENIC say, he dismisses out of hand.

I'm under no illusions as to Spurs' / ENIC's motives. They want to get the land for as little as possible. That's fair enough and the least that you would expect of them. Equally, Harry Hotspur should be under no illusions as to Archway's motives. They want to get as much money out of Spurs as possible. Again, that's absolutely fair enough and the least that you would expect of them. But this has got nothing to do with their survival as a business. They have been offered a bigger and better site within half a mile of their current base. Their relocation costs would be met and they would make a tidy profit on their existing property.

Harry Hotspur doesn't seem to understand that while Archway were fully entitled to hold out for more, they should have known that doing so was always going to come with the concomitant risk that they would end up with a far worse deal. It was Archway's choice to take on that risk. If it all goes tits up for them, they will only have themselves to blame.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Well people have tried to say that THFC's new stadium and the local redevelopment projects are two different things, but they aren't. THFC's presence encourages investors and businesses to come and/or stay in the area. Let's face it, what is Tottenham famous for? It certainly isn't Archway steel or basically anything other than riots and THFC. One is not a positive thing to be famous for.

If the club goes, then I would say there is a big chance a lot of the planned regeneration work wouldn't go ahead or would go ahead to a much lesser degree.

Without the CPO, we have to move.

As people have said as well, there were so many CPO's involved with Arsenal's stadium, the Olympic stadium and the fact we had to take legal action, which actually forced the Olympic Stadium back into public ownership with West Ham being tennants rather than owners (as under the previous plan), when WHam were going to be using public money to fund the development, whereas our bid was not selected even though we were going to fund it entirely by ourselves, to me it stinks.

Whether you wanted us to move to Stratford or not, we were royally f***ed over during that process and we had to take action to make sure WHam were not just handed a stadium for free when we have to fork out hundreds of £s of money to rebuild our own.

Don't generally believe in conspiracy theories and every fan of every club thinks their club gets a raw deal, but in this case, i honestly think there is poor political will towards THFC for whatever reason and it would not surprise me in the slightest if the CPO gets turned down.

Where that would leave us, i don't know, but i suspect it would leave us back to square one and would force us to leave Tottenham.

Some excellent points there - especially about THFC's continued presence being crucial to the regeneration of the area.

Couple of points I'd query, though:

I don't think that there's any political agenda against us. The Olympic stadium fiasco eventually worked in our favour, after all, with £16m worth of S106 obligations no longer required of the club and an increase of a further 80 new homes allowed in the southern NDP. This CPO has only taken so long because there are clearly some grey areas or uncharted territory that demand thorough consideration before it can be signed off. If the decision had been made hastily, without going through all the legal ramifications with a fine-tooth comb, then it could more easily be challenged and overturned on appeal. And that is the last thing that DCLG wants.

Secondly, if the decision goes against us, that needn't be the end of the matter. We could appeal. Or we could settle with Archway. It would cost us, of course. But it would still be cheaper and far, far quicker than having to start the whole process from scratch again - even assuming that we could find a new location that was remotely suitable.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Harry Hotspur has always been very pleased with himself for some unexplained reason. He's trying to portray this as a case of corporate greed and skulduggery against the little man. David v Goliath. He's trying to foment the illusion that this is a matter of Archway's very survival. Whatever Archway have told him, he seems to believe it implicitly. Whatever big, bad Spurs / ENIC say, he dismisses out of hand.

I'm under no illusions as to Spurs' / ENIC's motives. They want to get the land for as little as possible. That's fair enough and the least that you would expect of them. Equally, Harry Hotspur should be under no illusions as to Archway's motives. They want to get as much money out of Spurs as possible. Again, that's absolutely fair enough and the least that you would expect of them. But this has got nothing to do with their survival as a business. They have been offered a bigger and better site within half a mile of their current base. Their relocation costs would be met and they would make a tidy profit on their existing property.

Harry Hotspur doesn't seem to understand that while Archway were fully entitled to hold out for more, they should have known that doing so was always going to come with the concomitant risk that they would end up with a far worse deal. It was Archway's choice to take on that risk. If it all goes tits up for them, they will only have themselves to blame.

You're playing my song fella.

 

[NWND]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Of course there is a chance that they will decline it.

But you said that it "sounds like they are going to decline it". The truth is that there's nothing in Boles' reply to Lammy which suggests that either outcome is more likely than the other.

Why did you just focus on one line of my entire post and then use that one line to make out that I hadn't made it clear where my opinion had come from? Why don't you answer that? Or maybe you'd like to read my entire post, eh? Can you read?

 

[jimmyb]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Why did you just focus on one line of my entire post and then use that one line to make out that I hadn't made it clear where my opinion had come from? Why don't you answer that? Or maybe you'd like to read my entire post, eh? Can you read?

Not sure what you're getting tetchy about, mate.

You're confusing implication with inference. Boles' response wasn't "couched" in any kind of language that would give you a genuine clue as to what the decision is likely to be. It's pure guesswork (inference) on your part. Perhaps you're just expecting bad news....because you think that that's what always happens to Spurs?

 

[NWND]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Not sure what you're getting tetchy about, mate.

You're confusing implication with inference. Boles' response wasn't "couched" in any kind of language that would give you a genuine clue as to what the decision is likely to be. It's pure guesswork (inference) on your part. Perhaps you're just expecting bad news....because you think that that's what always happens to Spurs?

Which is precisely my point it's an inference of course it is nothing else just gut feel looking at the language used

 

[Rorschach]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Tottenham MP David Lammy has confronted Planning Minister Nick Boles on his department's procrastination over a compulsory purchase order that continues to delay the development of the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium.

The Premier League side are waiting on a decision from the Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) before they can press ahead with their new 56,000-seat stadium.

The process for the CPO began back in 2012 but Lammy, the club and Haringey Council are becoming increasingly baffled as to why the department is taking so long to respond. Ideally, Spurs would like to be in their stadium in time for the 2017-18 football season.

In a bid to get to the bottom of the mystery, the Labour MP raised the subject at DCLG questions in the House of Commons this week.

Lammy asked Boles when he expected the Secretary of State (Eric Pickles) to reach a decision on whether Haringey Council will be issued with a Compulsory Purchase Order in relation to the site of 1-3 Paxton Road, London - the current home of Archway Sheet Metal Works.

Nick Boles replied: "This is a complex case. After the close of the inquiry there were matters in respect of which further views of the interested parties were sought and considered. This has delayed the decision in this case.

"We hope to issue the decision on this shortly. It is not appropriate to comment further as to do so may prejudice the Secretary of State’s decision."

Lammy later Tweeted: "Average time for Gov to issue a CPO is 11 weeks @SpursOfficial have been waiting 108 weeks - Is @EricPickles a Gooner?"
http://www.24dash.com/news/local_go...-stadium-delay-discussed-in-House-of-Commons?

 

[jts1882]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

The language just sounds like standard political hedging and stalling. He is saying it is complex to justify the delay. Even if it wasn't, he'd still say the same as he can't say it's a simple matter and should have been decided months ago.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Northumberland Development Project

Lammy later Tweeted: "Average time for Gov to issue a CPO is 11 weeks @SpursOfficial have been waiting 108 weeks - Is @EricPickles a Gooner?"
http://www.24dash.com/news/local_go...-stadium-delay-discussed-in-House-of-Commons?

May make him feel good but I'm not sure Lammy's sarcastic snipe at the end there is helpful. No doubt it made him feel better but if you are a cynic like me you might wonder whether it could actually backfire in the worst way imaginable.